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Indeed:

Creator SCALE GAMES 6 minutes ago

Hi guys:

After several days of hard working trying to make this campaign a success, and after realizing that we cant reach the minimum goal to fund this project. We have decided to cancel funding and rethink the way of release of our product.

Fallen Frontiers is a real project, a project that has come to stay, and a project created and backed by great professionals from miniatures and wargames world. Even so we have decided to learn from our mistakes and fix them in order to return stronger.

Scale Games team wants to thank you all for your support, for your backing and for your comments during this campaign. To All the backers, shops, forums, blogs, general media and also to our friends and family who have been unconditionally on our side during this Kickstarter. THANK YOU A LOT!!! Even for your severe critics that made our project to grow bigger.

You will soon realize that we have learned a lot from this experience!

Many of you have trusted on us and we would like that to stay that way since Fallen Frontiers is going forward. If you want to keep up to date with Fallen Frontiers information , you can register on our mailing list ( http://www.fallenfrontiers.com/contact.html ) or follow us on our media ( www.facebook.com/fallenfrontiers and www.fallenfrontiers.com )

Again, Thank you all! And see you soon! Kind regards.

SCALE GAMES TEAM

This has just cancelled. Thon mk 2?
Fallen Frontiers:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/986826251/150693066/#chart-daily

Thon:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/178087494/thon/#chart-daily

rats, ninjad

Well hopefully they fix up their issues and relaunch soon with things more streamlined. They have some nice looking sculpts.

Agreed!

Though the closing message didn't make it seem like a new KS campaign is a quarantee...

I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.

Probably. Just out of curiosity, have any campaigns actually cancelled midway and then funded on a relaunch? Can't think of any off the top of my head, I'm probably wrong.

I'm sure its a hard lesson learned. Looking forward to those mini's coming back.


@guildsman

Didn't red box games cancel a campaign then was funded the second time round.

Yes, Red Box Games has done it in the past, and Mechadrome is doing it currently (the link is to the Dakka thread on it).

Cancelling and re-launching is a great way to go to re-focus your campaign, imo. No shame in it... I'll be watching for the re-launch here and approaching it with an open mind. If they stick with resin, it'll be tempting... particularly if there is a way simply to get a few add-ons rather than the full box to give them a try first.

Creator SCALE GAMES 6 minutes ago

Hi guys:

After several days of hard working trying to make this campaign a success, ...

That's dedication, right there... I can't imagine spending days on something that I really want to succeed.

 insaniak wrote:

Creator SCALE GAMES 6 minutes ago

Hi guys:

After several days of hard working trying to make this campaign a success, ...

That's dedication, right there... I can't imagine spending days on something that I really want to succeed.

You're such a sourpuss.
There's a certain threshold where having this campaign limp along while they frantically try to fix things is more damaging than cancelling. I think they realised that their effort could be better spent from the ground up than applying stretch goal band-aids for another week and a half.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.

Scale certainly has their gak together in a way that GoA couldn't even conceive of, and THON seemed to be one guy more or less.
I'll be surprised if this doesn't come back in some way.

I'll be surprised AND disappointed!

They should meet, go over what worked and what didn't, then re-launch a clear and concise campaign, and I think they'll do very well.

They have nice looking art and minis and what looks to be a cool game world. I think if they did it more stripped down and offered the game as a traditional skirmish game with a rulebook and minis, rather than a big boxed game, they would do much better and would also have a much lower funding goal.

This is really a shame, I watched, waited, and pledged towards the end of the campaign. They really had beautiful minis (yay for resin!) and some good ideas. I personally like the scale too for a smaller skirmish game as the minis look better, are more detailed, and make better collector/display pieces (the minis were also realistically scaled and not 40k cartoonish).

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's amazing that a little negativity can take down a project like this. :( I think they weren't giving concrete answers on the material issues as they were waiting to see how much they raised first (low funds = resin, lots of cash = plastic).

I hope they re-start the project, plan for a smaller scale, and do everything in resin (similar to WWX).

 455_PWR wrote:
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's amazing that a little negativity can take down a project like this. :( .

I find it equally amazing that people could think that it was negativity that brought this project down, rather than the lack of adequate communication and the apparent absence of a coherent plan on the part of the project creator...

There is no way they will relaunch resin at the same prices. Not happening. They just dodged a bullet.

If they went resin - the scope of the game would be way smaller. I don't believe their end goal is to produce smaller scale collectibles which is what this would equate to. They already have their own niche in that market.

Is it even a question they were going for the mass market appeal? The prices they were shooting for told the same story: Mass production. If they still want that I believe it's highly likely they will rescale the figures, remodel and adjust the troops for HIPS and leave special characters and other less common figures for resin. I don't see anything else making much sense, unless of course they settle for PVC.

 insaniak wrote:

 455_PWR wrote:
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's amazing that a little negativity can take down a project like this. :( .

I find it equally amazing that people could think that it was negativity that brought this project down, rather than the lack of adequate communication and the apparent absence of a coherent plan on the part of the project creator...

Pretty much this. But nice try, 455_PWR

Actually, I still do think it was negativity culture still had a large contribution to down this kickstarter, as well as THON.

Gates is another matter, since they didn't have anything at all to show other than a name drop.

THON and FF at least had miniatures, FF had high quality painted ones at that.

There was undoubtedly some serious issues with the game's presentation and lack of some key concrete information, such as an exact numerical scale announcement, pictures of their models next to a ruler, and the materials that were planned.

But if you look back, the same people talking about getting more concrete information were also the same people making up wild conspiracy theories and spreading them in as many replies as they could.

Then they try to hide behind the idea that they only wanted more concrete info. It's like your average conspiracy theorist.

Did this kickstarter deserve to succeed? Probably not. They were foolish to think to launch without such concrete info, especially in the aftermath of several well known kickstarters having production issues. But, what certainly didn't help was all the additional wild theories and random made up info that flooded the inboxes of the kickstarter creators.

But other kickstarters dealt with, and will have to deal with, that type of negativity culture. I'm already planning for dealing with it, and I've already got that concrete info and matching scale that supposedly sparked it off.

I really don't understand how asking for more information, and questioning strange and evasive answers from the project creator is a sign of a 'negativity culture'.

What potential project starters should take away from this fiasco isn't that people will try to bring them down for no apparent reason... it's that you need to have a coherent plan right from the start if you expect people to hand you their cash, and you need clear, prompt communication.

Having multiple people responding to questions, but each of them only having partial answers and only wandering in when they feel like it is a recipe for disaster, because people wind up feeling like their questions or concerns are being ignored.

Kickstarter organisers need to treat their potential investors as, well, potential investors. Don't expect people to fund your project if you're not prepared to show them that you know what you are doing.

 Vertrucio wrote:


But, what certainly didn't help was all the additional wild theories and random made up info that flooded the inboxes of the kickstarter creators.

Please, enlighten us.

What were these "wild theories" and "random [pieces of] made up info?"

Response to insaniak:
You've got to separate those who actually asked for and were reasonable about getting those hard answers, from those who just just piled on to that while also prancing about with all sorts of crazy theories and name calling.

Potential project starters, and humanity in general, are always going to have to deal with people who latch onto insignificant, or justifiably vague ideas and ride them into the ground.

People love looking for things to hate.

Another thing to realize is that, you are not an investor in kickstarter. Part of the reason why kickstarter exists is that the old model of investors generally won't help even the most organized of these kind of projects. So while the best kickstarters are very organized, those are projects that probably would have gotten funded through the old bank loan method anyway, they just wanted more money and to keep a higher percent.

These kind of kickstarter projects are the kind of things that can't get old banking money, and are sometimes vague in areas where only time, experience, and money can discern. Thus all kickstarters have an element of how much you actually trust the people behind it, and how reasonable of a project it is.

Because there have been plenty of very legit looking kickstarters where the creator has either just walked away with the money (see Defiance) or had something happen to make it otherwise deliverable.

I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that is a truth about kickstarters and this perception of being an investor.

 Vertrucio wrote:


These kind of kickstarter projects are the kind of things that can't get old banking money, and are sometimes vague in areas where only time, experience, and money can discern. Thus all kickstarters have an element of how much you actually trust the people behind it, and how reasonable of a project it is.
.

If you understand this then you should understand the problems people had with this one.

Dishonesty doesn't breed trust.

I understand the problems.

But I can also see the additive effect of negativity culture on top of that.

What you may not realize, not being on the creator side of this argument, is that often times the flood and glut of messaging can be overwhelming and confusing. Even more so if you aren't of the originating language or culture.

Several posters have said they commented or tried to contact Scale Games directly to urge them to post concrete answers. The problem is, on top of the usual flood of messages from doing anything public, you get a glut of the negative culture and conspiracy theorists with just as demanding tones screaming at them for various reasons.

Scale, for example.

It's certainly possible that over in Spain, larger scales are common and whether people buy larger scale games just isn't an issue that comes to mind in the gaming scene. They might regularly buy and paint miniatures of a variety of scales.

We can probably get someone from Spain on these forums to answer that though. But I do know we see a lot of small games out of France and Spain that have scales and proportions different than the accepted 40k norms.

Of course, the cultural differences doesn't absolve them of all problems. The internet exists in this age, and it takes less effort to post the right questions on a foreign miniatures forum than it is to setup a business address in the UK to start a UK kickstarter. This definitely raised red flags, but if you think about it, how the hell else would they have tried to get crowdfunding money to start a game? Or for that matter, would they know from their gaming culture to pose those questions in the first place?

You say, "Dishonesty doesn't breed trust."

Very accusational isn't it? Very negative. That is, effectively, you calling them liars and cheats.

My repeated response is, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

@Vertrucio, People decide with their pledges if a Kickstarter fails, the people have spoken.

It was their wishy washy handling of questions that turned a lot of people off. Hopefully when they restart the Kickstarter, they have everything figured out, and will use an English speaker for their communications

 Vertrucio wrote:
Scale, for example.

It's certainly possible that over in Spain, larger scales are common and whether people buy larger scale games just isn't an issue that comes to mind in the gaming scene. They might regularly buy and paint miniatures of a variety of scales.

Wouldn't that just make it even more important for them to make it clear just how big these actually are?

Particularly when the most common question you're getting after 'What are you making them out of?' is 'How big are they?'

Negativity culture is nonsense.

But it is pretty much in line with the "Blame Someone Else" culture endemic with the US lately.

I was quite interested in the game based on the design of the figures and open to using the larger scale, however I was not happy with how they were approaching all the other aspects of the KS which is why I and many others pulled support. It's not being a hater by any means the backwards slide was due to people voicing their concerns with their wallets.

Scale could have addressed those concerns but they chose not to, the result was people didn't feel comfortable with their plan enough to keep money riding on the project. I didn't see it as an extreme out pouring of negativity I saw a lot of people wanting to back the game but rightfully reversed their decision when it was apparent that Scale was not offering a solid enough game plan and their communication was terrible. A KS project lives and dies by how well they convey their ideas to their backers and how open their communication is, in this case it failed as Scale did not connect in a satisfactory manner with their backer and people withdrew their support.

It's not hate, some projects fail because they just don't bring all the elements to the table that people want and respond to. I hope they are able to learn from this and restructure their approach so that they can launch again at a later point as I really like the look of the miniatures.

 Vertrucio wrote:

You say, "Dishonesty doesn't breed trust."

Very accusational isn't it? Very negative. That is, effectively, you calling them liars and cheats.

My repeated response is, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Are you suggesting that a mininature company filled with artists and painters don't know how to use a ruler to measure a miniature?

"35mm scale" was what they started with. Then "35mm to the eyes" was, and continued to be until the end of the KS, their claim. Yet their own photograph shows the eyes of the shortest miniature they have shown to be above the head of a 37mm terminator. Other evidence like using the 25mm bases to gauge height showed the same. Their miniatures were 40mm and over, much over in some cases.

You're going to explain that by stupidity? That they are literally too stupid to measure a miniature? Or that they accidentally typed 35 instead of 40 and despite it coming up again and again couldn't work out how to change it or something?

Occams razor suggests that it's considerably more likely they know the size of their own miniatures and were simply lying. Why they were lying about it up for grabs but seeing as the majority of wargamers use a 'close to 35mm' scale already one wouldn't be too out of line by guessing it was to garner more interest. Also presenting them as smaller makes them look better, nobody is as impressed by a mini having crazy detail when it's 60mm tall, claim it's in the same scale as Warmachine or Infinity and suddenly it's 'amazing'.

They certainly never corrected a single person claiming their minis were smaller than they actually were. They were asked repeatedly, they read this forum and more importantly, they're not mentally slowed. They knew the size of their own mniatures and they misrepresented them.

Trust is important to a kickstarter. Rule #1, don't get caught lying.

It seems to me that the people most vocal in regards to questioning SG were the ones who really wanted a solid product delivered, and not to torpedo this project.

Much of the questions and uncertainty was born from other projects. Is it fair to relate the final product of one company with the unfinished product of another company? no.

But that is the purpose of the kickstarter chat section. communication.

Scale Games failed at that miserably.

The premade fanboys were of no help for scale games either. They were like attack dogs.

May Scale Games be clear and the fanboys subtle.

"nice try, 455_PWR"

See, this is why I have few posts over all the years I have been a member here; making jabs at people is just immature. I don't just add quick posts, I usually think and try to add a thoughtful post to a conversation. I also didn't try anything, I succeeded and here's how... I read other's posts, typed my opinion on the matter without making jabs at anyone, and pressed enter (so the post appeared here) . I'm not going to lose sleep if you don't agree with me lol.

I really do think that negativity had a part to play here (maybe it wasn't the sole factor, but it was part to blame). It's the same attitudes that harmed Sedition Wars after they made mistakes (I know, that's a huge story in and of itself...) and other projects. The Kickstarter also had not failed, it had just backslid a bit (they should have stuck it out and waitied to see what happened before they yanked it themselves). They actually had raised a good sum of cash with days to go, and may have reached their goal as many people pledge during the last day of KS campaigns. I really don't believe the company was being deceitful or intentionally dishonest here, I think they really didn't know what they were going to use (waiting to see how much $ they'd raise) and therefore didn't give straight answers. Yes they made some mistakes - Ignorance, being ill-prepared, or being in-experienced is a bad thing - but it's not the same thing as being intentionally misleading/dishonest.

I think the campaign could succeed if they lowered their price point a bit, stuck with resin, kept the models at their slightly larger scale (perfect for collectors/painters), had more stuff as add ons, and had less pledge amounts (1 for add ons, 1 for the base game + goals, and 1 for the base game and 2 more faction starters + goals).

I guess we shall see if they try to reboot or where this game goes from here!

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.

Thon has actually been slowly but steadily progressing if you choose to actually look. Has it actually come out in the time since? No... nor has it re-kickstarted either but apparently it has gone into beta testing. New renders, old figs now in metal, new units, etc.

http://www.thonthegame.com/

I had enough doubts (and expressed them loudly to no avail unfortunately) during the crowdfunding that I didn't join the beta or join their newsletter but I do pop into that website every few months to check out what is new and there always is something. It may be glacial but it is moving forward.