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 Delephont wrote:
#sigh#

So if you're not worried about compatibility with other games then the whole scale issue is moot. It's as big as it is, done.

I honestly don't know how to respond to that sentence, either you are purposefully missing the point or we are somehow not speaking the same language.

 Delephont wrote:
However, it's clear that no matter what anyone says you're here to push your agenda. Just be clear, your posts are doing more damage to your integrity than it does to Scale Miniatures.

It might be clear to you, but I honestly have no idea what you think I'm saying at this point so that doesn't mean much to me. I don't have an agenda to push if that's helpful to you in any way? Nor am I going to be swayed by assumptions about my integrity, I am perfectly comfortable with the questions I've asked and will remain so. I consider them important to the industry in general and to me personally as a consumer.

 Delephont wrote:
A final point. If you sincerely wanted to help Scale Miniatures, don't you think it would be more useful (practically and professionally, considering your own industry involvement) to approach them directly? How does posting your innocent concerns (repeatedly) on a public forum help to clear up the issues you're so vocal about? The only thing your posts will do is ferment distrust for Scale Miniatures....and you don't want that do you? Especially as they clearly aren't here to (defend) respond to your questions.

Where did i say I sincerely wanted to help Scale Games? This is like the 5th time you've started with a totally made up premise. I don't know anyone at Scale Games, I'd never heard of Scale Games before someone showed me a photo of the blue painted Tarken Stahl just before the last Kickstarter. I don't work for them or anything. I 'do' believe that if they followed my, and others, advice they would be better off but I'm not going out of my way to 'sincerely help' them.

The only way my posts would ferment distrust is if the answers to my questions warrant it. Generally asking a company questions like 'how tall is that mini', 'what are the minis going to be made of' 'how come the other photo of that mini seems taller' 'is that a 75mm figure in your 35mm kickstarter' etc. tend to be followed by short answers. For some reason with this kickstarter they were met with vagueness and problems with the language barrier which some of their more fervent fans took as a reason to go nuts at the people asking the question.

Just to once again try and be clear, my interest in this kickstarter was both as a consumer and as a fellow retailer. As a consumer I liked the first product I saw but was put off by, eventually, finding out the actual size. That was pretty much the end of my involvement as a consumer (I might have had some interest in picking up the non human figures like the Riff as a larger scale race). As a retailer it is in my best interests, and the best interests of other retailers and manufacturers, to make sure companies correctly identify their product. Miniatures are compared and contrasted and for that to be useful they need to be correctly identified.

Any other involvement has just been discussion with others (or, admittedly, in some cases poking some fun at others who seem to be a bit too worked up that I was asking questions about mininatures they liked).

 Artemis Black wrote:

Where did i say I sincerely wanted to help Scale Games?

Generally asking a company questions

Well with regards to the first part, you keep saying that your ranting is in the best interests of you as a consumer and retailer. So if you consider yourself a potential consumer and/or retailer then I would assume you want a good product, if you feel the product is being misrepresented, then you must LOGICALLY want to help them in order to help yourself......its called a logical extrapolation!

So, that was me giving you the benefit of the doubt. If, like you say, you have no interest in helping FF, then you can only be a vindictive troll, anyone else with no interest would state the reason once and walk away. I assume you have a life and interests outside of the operations of Scale Miniatures?

And it's on the second point that you hang yourself! You realise that posting on here does not equate to asking the company questions. You show me some correspondence between you and Scale Miniatures and I'll lend you my ear, but all you're doing is slating them on a public forum you know they don't frequent. So why not give it a rest? We've heard your points what more is there to say?

Delephont making accusations of ranting? Physician, heal thyself....

Yodhrin making a useless statement that adds nothing to the discussion = normality, who knew?

In the nicest possible way I thought this kickstarter fell apart due to the owners inability to answer simple questions in english in a timely fashion. If they want people to go out on a limb and invest in their products, they needed to try harder and learn how to interact with the non-spanish speaking portions of the community. I don't see why repeating the questions that were answered unsatisfactorily previously in this period of build up to the kickstarter relaunch is getting peoples backs up. Surely the first step in building an effective relaunch of a previously tainted brand should be in getting these questions answered, to clear the negativity and suggestions of incompetence swept away before asking folks to part with their cash?

 Delephont wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

Where did i say I sincerely wanted to help Scale Games?

Generally asking a company questions

Well with regards to the first part, you keep saying that your ranting is in the best interests of you as a consumer and retailer. So if you consider yourself a potential consumer and/or retailer then I would assume you want a good product, if you feel the product is being misrepresented, then you must LOGICALLY want to help them in order to help yourself......its called a logical extrapolation!

*laugh* Wow, ok, not quite the definition of logical I would use but suuure.

 Delephont wrote:
So, that was me giving you the benefit of the doubt. If, like you say, you have no interest in helping FF, then you can only be a vindictive troll, anyone else with no interest would state the reason once and walk away. I assume you have a life and interests outside of the operations of Scale Miniatures?

And it's on the second point that you hang yourself! You realise that posting on here does not equate to asking the company questions. You show me some correspondence between you and Scale Miniatures and I'll lend you my ear, but all you're doing is slating them on a public forum you know they don't frequent. So why not give it a rest? We've heard your points what more is there to say?

I 'hang myself' now, and with an exclamation mark no less I seem to have wandered into an old Rumpole of the Bailey episode. Perhaps later I can hoist myself by my own petard?

Anyway, you seem to have just restated the same thing you already said in very slightly different words, We already had this exact discussion earlier when I pointed it was unlikely that you would apply the same rules to yourself. I wasn't quite expecting you to prove that quite so soon though. Can I possibly just refer you to my answer from the last time you said it as I'm trying to keep my posts brief to help out the other guy.

 David Clarke wrote:
In the nicest possible way I thought this kickstarter fell apart due to the owners inability to answer simple questions in english in a timely fashion. If they want people to go out on a limb and invest in their products, they needed to try harder and learn how to interact with the non-spanish speaking portions of the community. I don't see why repeating the questions that were answered unsatisfactorily previously in this period of build up to the kickstarter relaunch is getting peoples backs up. Surely the first step in building an effective relaunch of a previously tainted brand should be in getting these questions answered, to clear the negativity and suggestions of incompetence swept away before asking folks to part with their cash?

Absolutely, but then is this the place to pose those questions? Scale Miniatures have no presence here, so no matter how often those questions are asked, we'll never get an answer! The only people who come here are potential backers....

 David Clarke wrote:
In the nicest possible way I thought this kickstarter fell apart due to the owners inability to answer simple questions in english in a timely fashion. If they want people to go out on a limb and invest in their products, they needed to try harder and learn how to interact with the non-spanish speaking portions of the community. I don't see why repeating the questions that were answered unsatisfactorily previously in this period of build up to the kickstarter relaunch is getting peoples backs up. Surely the first step in building an effective relaunch of a previously tainted brand should be in getting these questions answered, to clear the negativity and suggestions of incompetence swept away before asking folks to part with their cash?

How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?

Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!

 Artemis Black wrote:


How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?

Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!

Edited by RiTides

You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.

I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.

 Delephont wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:


How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?

Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!

Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed.....

You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.

I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.

*grin* Well you're all kinds of fun. One doesn't normally give business advice to a troll therefore Ha ha! I have poked a hole in your condom of fake concern!

(Am I doing this right?)

More seriously though, I'm pretty certain nobody give a squirrels nuts about your weird white knighting so any chance we could go back to talking about things related to the subject of the thread and we'll all just agree to pretend you won whatever it is you wanted to win? If it'll help I'll send you a rosette.

 Delephont wrote:
Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed.....

You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.

I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.

Nothing? How about poorly written English?

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Delephont wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:


How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?

Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!

Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed.....

You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.

I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.

*grin* Well you're all kinds of fun. One doesn't normally give business advice to a troll therefore Ha ha! I have poked a hole in your condom of fake concern!

(Am I doing this right?)

More seriously though, I'm pretty certain nobody give a squirrels nuts about your weird white knighting so any chance we could go back to talking about things related to the subject of the thread and we'll all just agree to pretend you won whatever it is you wanted to win? If it'll help I'll send you a rosette.

Apologies, I didn't mean to cause offence. I just thought, seeing as we're criticising (constructively) companies and how they represent themselves and their projects that I would offer some constructive criticism to you and your company. You are right though, that is taking this debate off topic. Would you prefer to start a new thread on the subject of Artemis Black online trading? At least you are here to offer a response to my critique, so it should be an interesting debate.

Hey guys, I'm kind of interested in this KS. Can we talk about it instead of yelling at each other?

Hey this thread is back again...popcorn time

While I was originally interested in this product. 35mm scale ( the industry really could do with everyone going by the same standards on what sale is BTW) for human figs is too big for my collection and I'm not in the market for yet another game I won't play.

Is 28 mm (gods scale) something that can't be achieved with cad design and 3d printing technology? See the new infinity models and Warzone Resurection range.

The aliens might be a shout though, but I'd want to see some scale shots of production models before Id commit to it.

A slight tangent but in the size comparison photo it shows the dreamforge shock trooper as smaller than the marine I thought they were a mm or 2 taller?

 Delephont wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Delephont wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:


How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?

Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!

Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed.....

You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.

I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.

*grin* Well you're all kinds of fun. One doesn't normally give business advice to a troll therefore Ha ha! I have poked a hole in your condom of fake concern!

(Am I doing this right?)

More seriously though, I'm pretty certain nobody give a squirrels nuts about your weird white knighting so any chance we could go back to talking about things related to the subject of the thread and we'll all just agree to pretend you won whatever it is you wanted to win? If it'll help I'll send you a rosette.

Apologies, I didn't mean to cause offence. I just thought, seeing as we're criticising (constructively) companies and how they represent themselves and their projects that I would offer some constructive criticism to you and your company. You are right though, that is taking this debate off topic. Would you prefer to start a new thread on the subject of Artemis Black online trading? At least you are here to offer a response to my critique, so it should be an interesting debate.

I think it's pretty obvious you didn't cause offence And sure, go ahead if ya like. It'll be a bit silly as you've got the wrong company but knock yourself out.

Now, about Fallen Frontiers...

 Artemis Black wrote:


I think it's pretty obvious you didn't cause offence And sure, go ahead if ya like. It'll be a bit silly as you've got the wrong company but knock yourself out.

Now, about Fallen Frontiers...

So, this isn't you?

http://www.artemisblacks.com

Ok, my mistake.

 Delephont wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:


I think it's pretty obvious you didn't cause offence And sure, go ahead if ya like. It'll be a bit silly as you've got the wrong company but knock yourself out.

Now, about Fallen Frontiers...

So, this isn't you?

http://www.artemisblacks.com

Ok, my mistake.

Yup, that's me And by all means feel free to open a new thread where we can discuss how terrible the website for my old company is, because it really is.

Now, once you've worked out the important words in the above sentence, back to FF?

I though AB was no more, please let me know if that's not the case as I need some coat d arms paint.

But this is surely not a subject for this thread

 squall018 wrote:
Hey guys, I'm kind of interested in this KS. Can we talk about it instead of yelling at each other?

Yes, please!

Let's do this!

Fallen Frontiers and Scale Games made some mistakes last time around, had some missteps...

From what we've seen so far, they look to have maybe learned from this - but we'll know for sure (maybe!) in about a week!

So yes!

Back on topic here, and RULE #1!

Thanks!

 Alpharius wrote:

 squall018 wrote:
Hey guys, I'm kind of interested in this KS. Can we talk about it instead of yelling at each other?

Yes, please!

Let's do this!

Fallen Frontiers and Scale Games made some mistakes last time around, had some missteps...

From what we've seen so far, they look to have maybe learned from this - but we'll know for sure (maybe!) in about a week!

So yes!

Back on topic here, and RULE #1!

Thanks!

+1!!

For the material issue I believe they will try to do all resin and if they hit an X stretch-goal they will opt for PVC plastic (also because the number of minis will probably be huge). Then again they might stick to resin since they have never worked with plastic before. HIPS is out of the question since the goal with the vehicles presented last time tops several hundred thousand of pounds, but the rest is doable.

For the scale issue I'm pretty sure Scale-75 are professionals and will have various pictures from different models next to a ruler or other minis once the KS kicks in (see what I've done here? lol).

(now I think I'm going to restrain myself from further comments, I had done so in the previous thread too and commented only once it got funded, never thought it could ever UNfund, never seen it happen!).

Best of luck Scale-75, hope all works out great for everyone! *thumb up*

While switching to "PVC plastic" might make sense IF this one overfunds by a lot AND they feel the need to stay firm with a delivery date, I can say that I will personally most likely unfund from it if it switches from Resin to "PVC plastic".

I'd rather they stick to 'real resin' and go with a more realistic delivery date rather than put out anything in "PVC plastic".

I wonder how many miniatures they would have to produce in resin?

I would hate to be one of the poor guys who are stuck with that.

Are they out sourcing casting to China?

Pvc as a stretch goal? That's weird to say the least. Who would want pvc over resin?

Mymearan wrote:
Pvc as a stretch goal? That's weird to say the least. Who would want pvc over resin?

The manufacturer

 Alpharius wrote:
While switching to "PVC plastic" might make sense IF this one overfunds by a lot AND they feel the need to stay firm with a delivery date, I can say that I will personally most likely unfund from it if it switches from Resin to "PVC plastic".

I'd rather they stick to 'real resin' and go with a more realistic delivery date rather than put out anything in "PVC plastic".

Word.

Dammit Scale 75/ Scale Games! The ruler for the Ares figure was a good start, and I was expecting rulers next to all the basic line troopers. Then this material debate comes out again.

The worst thing is I love the look of all the figures and that's why a lot of us have strong reactions. It's not to sabotage the project (in before the Scale Games fans comments on the kickstarter) but because it could do fantastically well if they did minimal, basic bookkeeping.

When the kickstarter goes up, if they put switching over to pvc plastic as a stretch goal I would urge as many of us as possible to go in and back for a single dollar so that they can be told directly and unavoidably how unacceptable it is for the majority of potential consumers. Convenience to the manufacturer means nothing if at the end of this I would end up with an inferior product in hand. Mantics adherence to the god awful stuff has made me put off any purchases from them till they get back on the hard plastics train.

Companies bringing new product to market need to be strongly disencouraged from going down this same disappointing route, is learning from the mistakes of others for personal economic advantage that hard a business skill to acquire?

Mymearan wrote:
Pvc as a stretch goal? That's weird to say the least. Who would want pvc over resin?

To asnwer your question, if they reached "x" pledge level they could say "we switch to PVC and you get double the models now for the same money".
This hasn't stopped people from buying PVC by the shovel before, companies that stick to "real plastic" don't seem to be the norm -although some are trying. :-)
I won't be saying what I personally think of this, but I'm pretty sure a bunch of people dropping down to the $1 pledge level isn't going to be happening...

(I'm so hard trying not to comment on this thread, since it's another respected manufacturer trying to do good and I don't want to be misinterpreted. Also, some of these models are really nice I think!)

Edti: Spelling mistakes, lol :-)

I'm sure you're fine Shieldwolf, I've become the posterboy for the cheerleaders hatred so you're probably safe

I must have missed where the material became a thing again, is it just because they haven't said anoything abot it this time around?

By the close of the last KS it was the one thing they'd actually been clear about. It was proper resin and with a higher number it was HIPS.
(Ok, that did lead to comments on the feasability of those goals but that's Scale Games' problem really)