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So this isn't a rant or anything, this is a legitimate question.

I play with friends an we're all relatively new to the game (our most 'veteran' player is me, having started in septembre). Our most recent member started about 3 months ago and decided to roll GK.
Now that 7th has come around and there is a FAQ avaible, he can't stop talking about how GW fething GK over and that everything that made GK good got removed. The biggest reason he's saying this is due to the new changes to the psychic phase.
Now I'm not an expert or anything but, to me, it seems that GK only benefit from the new psychic powers.

Can anyone who has a bit more knowledge on the subject tell me what the effect on the new edition is on Grey knighs?
Is it a buff, a nerf or just 'a change'.
Please explain in detail as I'll have to make clear the pros and cons of the changes.

Force Weapons are worse now, as you have to activate them during your own turn and can't do it during your opponent's turn anymore, as well as having to deal with DTW.

Hammerhand is harder to get off, although it's better for non-hammer-wielding models.

The Grey Knights powers were pretty good, the loss of those powers hurts a bit, especially for Purifiers. Librarians and Inquisitors already had access to the BRB powers they do now, minus Sanctic, so that's not really a plus.

Above all else though, it's now harder to cast psychic powers than before, which hurts GK because they've got quite a few psykers. I wouldn't agree that they're worthless, they've still got quite a few tricks up their sleeve, but they're probably worse off than before.

GKs got buffed, for the most part. Force Weapons and the loss of some of our codex powers/unit powers is a small nerf.

SJ

honestly this edition made me tempted to start grey Knights!

It depends on what units he likes and what he likes about the army. Just as with every edition change, what's good and bad got shuffled around and if his favorites got nerfed that would be a good reason to be upset.. This one's a bit nastier for that than most since they removed most of the old Psychic Powers and changed anything that's left. Which is a real shame, there was some good stuff available and it was one of the ways to differentiate the Grey Knight units that are otherwise just small variations on the same options.

For the army's overall power level, I think they did alright. You'd think an army of all Psykers would fair poorly with the new Warp Charge economy, but they can actually handle it better than anyone else. Most Grey Knight units don't need their powers to do their jobs (Storm Bolter and Psycannon the crap out of things), so they're fine with donating their Warp Charge to the primary casters.

Vehicles got better in general, though losing Fortitude hurts the gun platforms. They Score now (Land Raiders!) And while Sanctuary is pretty minor on its own it can get nuts if you have a way to get them an Invulnerable to turn into a 3++ (hi Forewarning, I'd like you to meet my friend, Land Raider. I think the two of you are perfect for each other).

Banishment is a poor replacement for the old infantry powers. Hammerhands' new timing is awkward, but you don't need to add an IC to get +2 Strength now. Cleansing Flame is much worse, it costs more, it happens at a worse time and it's less effective against hordes, which it was meant to fight. Purifiers are still good anyway. Without Astral Aim, Purgitation squads are only good as a cheap source of four Incinerators. Everything else is done better by other units. Henchmen Psykers are massively better now. As long as you only have one per squad, they're full ML 1 casters for a pittance.

The Liberian lost most of the things that made him a better caster than the other Psykers in the codex, which sucks. Both the Brother-Captain and the Grand Master got promoted to full discipline access, further narrowing the gap between them and the Liberian. Coatez himself didn't change much, he's still the cheapest ML 2 in the book and provides some nice bonuses. Hencehmen Psykers being so much better reflects well on him though, as he lets you take many more of that great model. Crowe is still bad on his own and the thing that made him worthwhile (Troops Purifiers) is largely unnecessary now that everything Scores. Brotherhood Champions are very sad to lose their kamikaze power and if you need a cheap HQ you should probably just take Coatez. Most of the other characters are about the same.

I think that about covers it. Keep in mind that I have yet to get a game of 7th in yet though, so I could be wrong about some things.

Sam cw wrote:
It depends on what units he likes and what he likes about the army. Just as with every edition change, what's good and bad got shuffled around and if his favorites got nerfed that would be a good reason to be upset.. This one's a bit nastier for that than most since they removed most of the old Psychic Powers and changed anything that's left. Which is a real shame, there was some good stuff available and it was one of the ways to differentiate the Grey Knight units that are otherwise just small variations on the same options.

For the army's overall power level, I think they did alright. You'd think an army of all Psykers would fair poorly with the new Warp Charge economy, but they can actually handle it better than anyone else. Most Grey Knight units don't need their powers to do their jobs (Storm Bolter and Psycannon the crap out of things), so they're fine with donating their Warp Charge to the primary casters.

Vehicles got better in general, though losing Fortitude hurts the gun platforms. They Score now (Land Raiders!) And while Sanctuary is pretty minor on its own it can get nuts if you have a way to get them an Invulnerable to turn into a 3++ (hi Forewarning, I'd like you to meet my friend, Land Raider. I think the two of you are perfect for each other).

Banishment is a poor replacement for the old infantry powers. Hammerhands' new timing is awkward, but you don't need to add an IC to get +2 Strength now. Cleansing Flame is much worse, it costs more, it happens at a worse time and it's less effective against hordes, which it was meant to fight. Purifiers are still good anyway. Without Astral Aim, Purgitation squads are only good as a cheap source of four Incinerators. Everything else is done better by other units. Henchmen Psykers are massively better now. As long as you only have one per squad, they're full ML 1 casters for a pittance.

The Liberian lost most of the things that made him a better caster than the other Psykers in the codex, which sucks. Both the Brother-Captain and the Grand Master got promoted to full discipline access, further narrowing the gap between them and the Liberian. Coatez himself didn't change much, he's still the cheapest ML 2 in the book and provides some nice bonuses. Hencehmen Psykers being so much better reflects well on him though, as he lets you take many more of that great model. Crowe is still bad on his own and the thing that made him worthwhile (Troops Purifiers) is largely unnecessary now that everything Scores. Brotherhood Champions are very sad to lose their kamikaze power and if you need a cheap HQ you should probably just take Coatez. Most of the other characters are about the same.

I think that about covers it. Keep in mind that I have yet to get a game of 7th in yet though, so I could be wrong about some things.

I've been to other fora and stuff to look for some info on the subject and someone said this about purifiers and almost everyone seemed to agree on this:
Purifiers: Absolutely absurd now, they leave Sternguard and Chosen in the dust. S6 I6 attacks with halberds and 'Hammerhand' up, still have quad psycannon, Fearless, and they score. THEY SCORE. Plus you can combat squad to double-cast 'Cleansing Flame' and generate an additional Warp Charge dice. Cleansing Flame is now a 9" AOE heavy flamer profile with 2D6 auto-hits. Now imagine double-casting that with two Combat Squads. Oh, and did I mention, it works outside of melee!

DaPino wrote:

I've been to other fora and stuff to look for some info on the subject and someone said this about purifiers and almost everyone seemed to agree on this:
Purifiers: Absolutely absurd now, they leave Sternguard and Chosen in the dust. S6 I6 attacks with halberds and 'Hammerhand' up, still have quad psycannon, Fearless, and they score. THEY SCORE. Plus you can combat squad to double-cast 'Cleansing Flame' and generate an additional Warp Charge dice. Cleansing Flame is now a 9" AOE heavy flamer profile with 2D6 auto-hits. Now imagine double-casting that with two Combat Squads. Oh, and did I mention, it works outside of melee!

You can't have both psycannons and halberds, as your text implies. Anyone with a psycannon will be using it to bludgeon you with. Moving the unit to stand in a place that allows you to get your 9" off hurts your psycannons a lot. If you're combatsquadding, using 9" nova of death and hammerhand on both those units, you're seriously starving some other part of your army for warp dice.

Yeah, they're good, but don't start listing all that's good with them as if it comes without a single drawback. Those good things hamper eachother.

 Purifier wrote:

DaPino wrote:

I've been to other fora and stuff to look for some info on the subject and someone said this about purifiers and almost everyone seemed to agree on this:
Purifiers: Absolutely absurd now, they leave Sternguard and Chosen in the dust. S6 I6 attacks with halberds and 'Hammerhand' up, still have quad psycannon, Fearless, and they score. THEY SCORE. Plus you can combat squad to double-cast 'Cleansing Flame' and generate an additional Warp Charge dice. Cleansing Flame is now a 9" AOE heavy flamer profile with 2D6 auto-hits. Now imagine double-casting that with two Combat Squads. Oh, and did I mention, it works outside of melee!

You can't have both psycannons and halberds, as your text implies. Anyone with a psycannon will be using it to bludgeon you with. Moving the unit to stand in a place that allows you to get your 9" off hurts your psycannons a lot. If you're combatsquadding, using 9" nova of death and hammerhand on both those units, you're seriously starving some other part of your army for warp dice.

Yeah, they're good, but don't start listing all that's good with them as if it comes without a single drawback. Those good things hamper eachother.

You're missing the bit about those -not- equipped with Psycannons having the halberds. And psycannons always had the problem of them being worse if you moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sam cw wrote:
It depends on what units he likes and what he likes about the army. Just as with every edition change, what's good and bad got shuffled around and if his favorites got nerfed that would be a good reason to be upset.. This one's a bit nastier for that than most since they removed most of the old Psychic Powers and changed anything that's left. Which is a real shame, there was some good stuff available and it was one of the ways to differentiate the Grey Knight units that are otherwise just small variations on the same options.

For the army's overall power level, I think they did alright. You'd think an army of all Psykers would fair poorly with the new Warp Charge economy, but they can actually handle it better than anyone else. Most Grey Knight units don't need their powers to do their jobs (Storm Bolter and Psycannon the crap out of things), so they're fine with donating their Warp Charge to the primary casters.

Vehicles got better in general, though losing Fortitude hurts the gun platforms. They Score now (Land Raiders!) And while Sanctuary is pretty minor on its own it can get nuts if you have a way to get them an Invulnerable to turn into a 3++ (hi Forewarning, I'd like you to meet my friend, Land Raider. I think the two of you are perfect for each other).

Banishment is a poor replacement for the old infantry powers. Hammerhands' new timing is awkward, but you don't need to add an IC to get +2 Strength now. Cleansing Flame is much worse, it costs more, it happens at a worse time and it's less effective against hordes, which it was meant to fight. Purifiers are still good anyway. Without Astral Aim, Purgitation squads are only good as a cheap source of four Incinerators. Everything else is done better by other units. Henchmen Psykers are massively better now. As long as you only have one per squad, they're full ML 1 casters for a pittance.

The Liberian lost most of the things that made him a better caster than the other Psykers in the codex, which sucks. Both the Brother-Captain and the Grand Master got promoted to full discipline access, further narrowing the gap between them and the Liberian. Coatez himself didn't change much, he's still the cheapest ML 2 in the book and provides some nice bonuses. Hencehmen Psykers being so much better reflects well on him though, as he lets you take many more of that great model. Crowe is still bad on his own and the thing that made him worthwhile (Troops Purifiers) is largely unnecessary now that everything Scores. Brotherhood Champions are very sad to lose their kamikaze power and if you need a cheap HQ you should probably just take Coatez. Most of the other characters are about the same.

I think that about covers it. Keep in mind that I have yet to get a game of 7th in yet though, so I could be wrong about some things.

Things will get interesting when GKs get their 7th ed codex. I have to admit that Banishment is pathetic and completely not worth the primaris power slot. Having the GK leaders able to chose their psychic discipline is a nice boost. The loss of Warp Quake is a heavy blow in our ability to counter drop pods and the like. Purgation squads are useless now, Purifiers do it better.

"Without Astral Aim, Purgitation squads are only good as a cheap source of four Incinerators"

They were my Favorite unit. Used them w/ Conv beam Inq and Tech Marines. Used them to man the ML in the fortress of Redmpt. Makes me a sad Panda.

I do like Land Raiders only getting killed on a 7+. How do get forewarning on you landraiders tho? The casters can't cast it on them from inside anymore.

chnmmr wrote:

You're missing the bit about those -not- equipped with Psycannons having the halberds. And psycannons always had the problem of them being worse if you moved.

I'm not missing anything. You can't say that "purifiers have I6 and power weapons and psycannons." About half will have each, with the odd one out having the I6 rather than the psycannon. What was being said was a listing of every potential benefit they can have at the same time.

I know they always got hurt by moving, but now they have a spell that demands they move around a lot more than before to get it in a good position. It used to be a spell made for entrenching against horde armies. Now it's a fantastic spell so long as you position yourself in the middle of the fray. Exactly where you don't want your psycannons.

I'm not missing anything. You're missing a critical eye to what you see as an overwhelmingly powerful unit.

They're good, and I like where they ended up. But they're not the Gods you make them out to be.

I would have to say that the biggest loss was that of Astral Aim and Warp Quake. Astral Aim made Purgation Squads able to sit in full cover and just fire away made their claim to fame. With this power gone, I doubt we will see Purgation Squads that often if at all. Warp Quake was nice for a variety of reasons.

That being said, I think the GK still got a lot better. With every unit able to generate a warp charge, it let's us have a larger warp charge pull than normal. Hammerhand is increasingly better making non-hammer units that much better. Purifiers still kept their usefulness. Vehicles generate warp charges even and Sanctuary gives them an Invul save so that lovely Land Raider of doom with Forewarning is possible.

Overall, in my games played in 7th, GK got better for the most part. The problems they suffer from are problems they still had in 6th but honestly right now I think GK are the only that could take on Daemon factory list and stand a good chance of winning against those lists. The only thing that one might have to do is to make sure you have heavy support, I solved it with an Imperial Fist detachment.

Grey Knights are better (considerably) from a competitive stand point than they were in 6th (not as good as 5th probably). GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th. Most of their powers really did not matter much etc.

Vehicles getting better, helps GKs.
All their units getting Power dice helps
More access to psychic discipline helps.
Having the cheapest psykers in the game helps.
Invisbile Paladins/Terminators are amazing
Having more Battle brothers is huge
GK strom ravens got a buff against seer council (unless it is invisible) because ghost helms have no warp charges to spend during the GK shooting phase.
Hammer hand is better for all S4 models (unless you were casting it 3 times or more)
Sanctuary is really good (2++ draigo, who can roll for precog)

GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th.

This is still a problem.
They are more durable with the new powers but they still have a delivery problem.

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th.

This is still a problem.
They are more durable with the new powers but they still have a delivery problem.

It's a smaller problem now though. One which pales in insignificance compared to the situation many armies are in with 7th. The Land Raider is a very good delivery system now. Yes, too expensive to spam, but you can at the very least get one key unit in to the fray.

They are less of the offensive psychic powerhouse that they were but i would say they have currently the strongest psychic defense and that should not be over looked.

The number of WC dice they can generate without even trying in conjunction with all the aegis love around will make attempting to cast powers against the GK nearly impossible.

 Deuce11 wrote:
They are less of the offensive psychic powerhouse that they were but i would say they have currently the strongest psychic defense and that should not be over looked.

The number of WC dice they can generate without even trying in conjunction with all the aegis love around will make attempting to cast powers against the GK nearly impossible.

Except if you stick to blessings, summonings and other powers that don't specifically targets the grey knight. We still have a lot of dice, but a 6+ is unimpressive.

^ Fair point but that still doesn't mean GK don't have, arguably, the strongest psychic defense in the game during an edition when it is already more difficult than past editions to cast powers safely.

 Purifier wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th.

This is still a problem.
They are more durable with the new powers but they still have a delivery problem.

It's a smaller problem now though. One which pales in insignificance compared to the situation many armies are in with 7th. The Land Raider is a very good delivery system now. Yes, too expensive to spam, but you can at the very least get one key unit in to the fray.

A Landraider pattern tank is too expensive for an already expensive army (model-wise).
As said, I still see the delivery problem.

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th.

This is still a problem.
They are more durable with the new powers but they still have a delivery problem.

Except that vehicles in general got better, so henchmen in psybacks (not expensive) are viable again, and more Battle Brothers means more ways to make use of the army.

Breng77 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th.

This is still a problem.
They are more durable with the new powers but they still have a delivery problem.

Except that vehicles in general got better, so henchmen in psybacks (not expensive) are viable again, and more Battle Brothers means more ways to make use of the army.

Other armies like Necrons, Daemons, Eldar also got a boost so that overall GK will suck as before.

Its not that I dislike GK. I have a shelved GK army looking for ways to play it.

I havent played a game of 7th yet so maybe I cant be one to judge, but at first glance at the faq my initial thought was "ahhh crap, there goes the flavor." Although, GK was an army that relied heavily on the old way of using psychic powers so an update was inevitable. Much like how Tomb Kings had their magic totally overhauled to fit in with the mechanics of 8th ed. I don't think they suck now, the tactics we were used to have just changed.

That said I was still displeased at the loss of holocaust. That was my favorite power that made it into this dex from the DH book. I wonder though, do you guys think with any new books we will see army specific powers or will everyone have to use the BRB powers?

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th.

This is still a problem.
They are more durable with the new powers but they still have a delivery problem.

Except that vehicles in general got better, so henchmen in psybacks (not expensive) are viable again, and more Battle Brothers means more ways to make use of the army.

Other armies like Necrons, Daemons, Eldar also got a boost so that overall GK will suck as before.

Its not that I dislike GK. I have a shelved GK army looking for ways to play it.

To me GK don't have a delivery problem, our delivery is DS and teleporting. I understand that usually people use armor to deliver infantry units but this has never worked in an expensive army like GK in the first place. Using Interceptors, Dreadknights with personal teleporters, Mordrak with his Ghost Knights and then deep striking in GKSS or Terminators have worked a lot better for me than any kind of Rhino, Razorback or Landraider even with exposed troops. As long as you combat squad there is a good amount of target saturation. It's a gamble but a Librarian taking Sanctic Discipline can get Gate of Infinity letting this strategy work even more although I would rather try to get Invisibility for Mordrak. Even still, these tactics provide shock and awe more than a Rhino rush and have made more than one opponent uncomfortable as they have way too many GK in the backyard staring their units in the face.

Even though they lost a few things (Quake, Aim), what they gained is far better, plus the fact there will be more daemons running around for preferred enemy stuffs.

GKs will be fine

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK were pretty bad in 6th, expensive models died in droves to the mass shooting of 6th.

This is still a problem.
They are more durable with the new powers but they still have a delivery problem.

Except that vehicles in general got better, so henchmen in psybacks (not expensive) are viable again, and more Battle Brothers means more ways to make use of the army.

Other armies like Necrons, Daemons, Eldar also got a boost so that overall GK will suck as before.

Its not that I dislike GK. I have a shelved GK army looking for ways to play it.

Disagree, GK got a much larger buff than daemons, infact IMO Daemons are weaker than they were in 6th ed. Necrons did not get much better really, but they were already good. Eldar Got better sure. Not sure how any of that makes GK suck as before. Especially when they go from 1 battle brother allies to 8 (IG, SM, DA, BA, SW, Sisters, Iknights, Inquistion).

Played a 7th Ed tournament 2 days ago. Gks took like 4th and 9th out of 18. Highest Daemon Finish was 8th.

GK will be fine.

I sure will miss old cleansing flame though :(

Or Purifier you could do what I do and take 4 Halb. and a hammer and 4 Psycannons and just combat squad them. Then you have your shooting purifiers and your melee nice and separate.

 Mythra wrote:
Or Purifier you could do what I do and take 4 Halb. and a hammer and 4 Psycannons and just combat squad them. Then you have your shooting purifiers and your melee nice and separate.

Problem is the expense of Purifiers, that has always been my one hesitation with them despite me wanting to use their flame ability and they don't deep strike.