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 Blacksails wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


Whaaaaa?

B.a used to be "pretty much codex adherent" not anymore, yes they have more non codex units than actual codex units and.even one of those codex units doesn't use codex equipment (assault marines), space wolves even less so.

Errr, which units are not non codex? All I see are death company.

The rest are name changes on existing roles and functions. Maybe Sanguinary guard, but the rest is really just variants or name changes on other codex units.

Space Wolves are a little different, but still functionally the same.

I've never bought in to the idea that any marine chapter has irreconcilable differences that couldn't be made apart of a better written, all encompassing loyalist marine codex.

Personally the only chapters I considered to be different enough were Wolves and Black Templars (and ironically it was deemed that they weren't different enough). BA used to be a regular chapter with DC, and now have a bit more unique things but IMO not enough and some things they have (Librarian Dreadnoughts?) should be available to everybody else too.

DA should have nothing different (all Terminator and all bike should be allowed for anybody) beyond names.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


Whaaaaa?

B.a used to be "pretty much codex adherent" not anymore, yes they have more non codex units than actual codex units and.even one of those codex units doesn't use codex equipment (assault marines), space wolves even less so.

Errr, which units are not non codex? All I see are death company.

The rest are name changes on existing roles and functions. Maybe Sanguinary guard, but the rest is really just variants or name changes on other codex units.

Space Wolves are a little different, but still functionally the same.

I've never bought in to the idea that any marine chapter has irreconcilable differences that couldn't be made apart of a better written, all encompassing loyalist marine codex.

Personally the only chapters I considered to be different enough were Wolves and Black Templars (and ironically it was deemed that they weren't different enough). BA used to be a regular chapter with DC, and now have a bit more unique things but IMO not enough and some things they have (Librarian Dreadnoughts?) should be available to everybody else too.

DA should have nothing different (all Terminator and all bike should be allowed for anybody) beyond names.

In all honesty, Space Marines really just fight slightly differently. I mean you could have instead multiple DE books about the cults, kabals, and homunc groups, Chaos with all its vastly different tech even between groups, not counting LOTD and pure legions who actually do have different things from each other, even Eldar and Orks should instead have multiple books.

By comparison, SM don't have much enough to differentiate each other compared to some vast differences in the same book for different xenos/chaos armies, even IG would have far more due to it's massive groups.

Even Sanguinary Guard are a variant unit - Honour Guard.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


By comparison, SM don't have much enough to differentiate each other compared to some vast differences in the same book for different xenos/chaos armies, even IG would have far more due to it's massive groups.

This is it for me.

I just don't see how having a unit with a different name and a minute variant in wargear option constitutes having a distinct codex.

It'd be like justifying a separate IG codex because your infantry squads can take two special weapons instead of a special + heavy, and your HWS are four teams instead of three.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


Whaaaaa?

B.a used to be "pretty much codex adherent" not anymore, yes they have more non codex units than actual codex units and.even one of those codex units doesn't use codex equipment (assault marines), space wolves even less so.

Errr, which units are not non codex? All I see are death company.

The rest are name changes on existing roles and functions. Maybe Sanguinary guard, but the rest is really just variants or name changes on other codex units.

Space Wolves are a little different, but still functionally the same.

I've never bought in to the idea that any marine chapter has irreconcilable differences that couldn't be made apart of a better written, all encompassing loyalist marine codex.

I would argue that what both C:SM and C:CSM/Caemons need are just larger books, perhaps comparable to the BRB. Before people go "GOOD GOD MAN! DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?!" HEAR ME OUT FIRST, PLZ K-THX!

Obviously, the largest factions currently are Imperium and Chaos, taken strictly from fluff and the game itself. We can go into "Oh, what about all the Ork Warbands" and "Oh, the Necrons have X-number of dynasties," but that's not what I'm talking about. Just look at the Horus Heresy. There is an entire series some 30+ books long that is detailing the sturggle between the Imperium and Chaos. As I keep pointing out, Chaos is called "The Great Enemy" for a reason. We're practically half the damn story.

So it would stand to reason that these two factions should probably have a bit more attention paid to them and their codex's be scaled accordingly. Now, I know the BRB is something like 500+ pages long, and I don't mean to make those Codex's that long, but long enough to encompass things like the Individual Legions/Chapters, their individual tactics and the things that make them different, respectable specific armories for those factions and things of the sort.

I would love a Chaos dex where the first half of the book talks about the Chaos Gods and Cult Legions, and then it moved onto say the Undivided Chapters, and then on to Traitor Guard, Mutants, and all the other mites and such that roll with the Chaos carpet. And I wouldn't mind paying more for it either!

It would suck that other armies like the Tyranids or Eldar could have a cheaper book, but look at how much more you would get with something like I depicted above? And if these new editions I'm detailing were successful and grew the business and the game respectfully, could you imagine if other armies ended up in similar boats?

ORK PLAYERS! You're getting a new codex (or already have) soon, right? Would "Ork Tactics" sound good to you? Because I know the Warbands all have their own styles as well (Speed Freeks painted Red Go Fasta!!)?

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

I don't want a Space Marine player writing a Codex for Chaos. That would be like letting a terrorist (if you believe in such things) be in charge of the presidents security detail.

I'm willing to bet this is how we got awful renamed loyalist units like warpsmith, dark apostle, and nerfed statline of the sorcerer.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

I don't want a Space Marine player writing a Codex for Chaos. That would be like letting a terrorist (if you believe in such things) be in charge of the presidents security detail.

I'm willing to bet this is how we got awful renamed loyalist units like warpsmith, dark apostle, and nerfed statline of the sorcerer.

It is pretty much why the Chaos Lord went from being one of the most customizable units with the ability to become a psyker into a captain expy, why CSM lost all matter of uniqueness with veteran traits for all etc.

As stated a few times- the csm problem is the lack of mobility of the troops. Rhinos are about as good as it gets. If you cant move em much you can't respond to the opponent you have to make all your tac decisions in deployment and then just play em out. People have made csm work fine but i haven't seen csm troops ever be the thing to turn the tide of a game or surprise an opponent. Its.. not that fun...

I like the boons and even that champion of chaos rule which is a massive nerd stick but at least its chaosie. I think there could of been more of this. The lords and the sorcs + supplements special wargear was cool- potential but it never seemed to work unless you put it into a squad of spawn or bikers and then it was like.. but these don't score/aren't that fun/everygamehingesonthisoneunit….

Wishlist- a randomised warp deployment option that had a real risk/reward chart- not drop pods, not razorbacks but something way sicker (chaosier). I guess thats like deamons but… yeh i think it'd be cool to have csm actually using the warp right? I kinda thought lords should of been able to make 2 units join- like 20 cultists and 5 chosen and a lord…

Hay what about deamon engines that let csm make warp tunnels like nydas canals in sc? vehicle deamons that give mobility without being transports…Also i miss defilers- they were kinda cool. Heldrakes are stupid. If you think of vehicles as just transports or shooting platforms your doing it wrong imo. Csm fortifications like warp beacons or something… Man making a codex would be easy...

I play csm for the looks, i think the models are the coolest stuff gw produces. I am under no illusions that i am going to be competitive with them however. In a shooty edition, they are an assault army with precious little ways to get your champion, mutilators, bezerkers, possessed etc into combat. I'm sticking with them and am slowly evolving into the somewhat obligatory nurgle build, even though i started off tzeentch, which at least takes longer to die to taudar.

Ways to fix csm:
Legion tactics
Give forgefiend purchasable skyfire and twinlinked.
Non fw drop pods.
Cult terminators
Larger non fw transport (all csm squads can be taken as 20, yet you cant transport them).
Warp talons and mutilators assault from deep strike.
Bonus to them rolling for daemonology, i mean c'mon why would they be as skilled at summoning daemons as the friggin smurfs??
Bezerkers need free chainaxes and one more attack or strength.

Those are just my thoughts.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


I would argue that what both C:SM and C:CSM/Caemons need are just larger books, perhaps comparable to the BRB. Before people go "GOOD GOD MAN! DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?!" HEAR ME OUT FIRST, PLZ K-THX!

Obviously, the largest factions currently are Imperium and Chaos, taken strictly from fluff and the game itself. We can go into "Oh, what about all the Ork Warbands" and "Oh, the Necrons have X-number of dynasties," but that's not what I'm talking about. Just look at the Horus Heresy. There is an entire series some 30+ books long that is detailing the sturggle between the Imperium and Chaos. As I keep pointing out, Chaos is called "The Great Enemy" for a reason. We're practically half the damn story.

So it would stand to reason that these two factions should probably have a bit more attention paid to them and their codex's be scaled accordingly. Now, I know the BRB is something like 500+ pages long, and I don't mean to make those Codex's that long, but long enough to encompass things like the Individual Legions/Chapters, their individual tactics and the things that make them different, respectable specific armories for those factions and things of the sort.

I would love a Chaos dex where the first half of the book talks about the Chaos Gods and Cult Legions, and then it moved onto say the Undivided Chapters, and then on to Traitor Guard, Mutants, and all the other mites and such that roll with the Chaos carpet. And I wouldn't mind paying more for it either!

This I could get behind. Add Dark Mechanicum too! A better ally system would also work wonders.

Have CSMs, then warband, Legion, and Chaos Undivided and god-specific rules, then Traitor Guard, Dark Mechanicum and Daemons. Wanna field a homebrew Khornate warband? There are functional rules for that! Wanna make a Traitor Guard army led by one and many Alpharius or Word Bearers? The rules are there! CSM-sorcerer led force of daemons and traitor guard? No problem!

It would make oh-so-much-sense, but we're never gonna get it. Hell, make it hardback, cost 40-50£... They could do the same for the Loyalists.

IoM could have the major SM chapters (Black Templars, SW, BA, DA, UM etc) and their tactics, special characters, unique equipment and tactics, then add special characters and tactics for later foundings, e.g. Carchorodons, Sons of Medusa, Minotaurs, maybe even include rules for Renegade chapters (or slap them in the Chaos codex). Then add in Grey Knights and Deathwatch. Then follow up with IG/AM (with optional rules for DKoK, Catachans, Mordian Iron Guard etc) and their characters, Inquisition, Mechanicum and Knights. Oh, and you could even include ork mercenaries in there!

Hell, you could do this for Craftworld Eldar, DE, Exodites and Corsairs too. The fluff for all the factions could all be put in one part and as long as the rest is well written (Key here) they could keep the crunch relatively short. WH40K books are notoriously verbose imho.

It would allow GW to work out a MUCH better allies matrix and get internal balance done... and gets to charge for 2 codices instead of 1, and save shelf-space in store. But this is pure mental masturbation, it won't ever happen.

I'd argue their business model simply has to fall in line. Considering how expensive this game is and the demands of the fan, I don't see it unreasonable for people to spend $100 on a Codex Tome, seeing as how people pay thousands for full battleforces, and then the BRB's are up in the 70's range anyways, if not more. The biggest problem I see with that idea though is updates, but then in the digital age (seeing as how digital is cheaper anyways), I also think they should invest more in digital copies that can be updated automatically without having to throw down another $50 every year or so when something new comes out. And better than that? Why not GW have a membership program? You pay a flat rate, say $10 a month or something, or maybe even a one time rate of $100, or even an annual rate or something, and you get whatever GW puts out digitally, for free.

The only reason why this doesn't fly is because their business model doesn't allow it to fly.

pax_imperialis wrote:
I play csm for the looks, i think the models are the coolest stuff gw produces. I am under no illusions that i am going to be competitive with them however. In a shooty edition, they are an assault army with precious little ways to get your champion, mutilators, bezerkers, possessed etc into combat. I'm sticking with them and am slowly evolving into the somewhat obligatory nurgle build, even though i started off tzeentch, which at least takes longer to die to taudar.

Ways to fix csm:
Legion tactics
Give forgefiend purchasable skyfire and twinlinked.
Non fw drop pods.
Cult terminators
Larger non fw transport (all csm squads can be taken as 20, yet you cant transport them).
Warp talons and mutilators assault from deep strike.
Bonus to them rolling for daemonology, i mean c'mon why would they be as skilled at summoning daemons as the friggin smurfs??
Bezerkers need free chainaxes and one more attack or strength.

Those are just my thoughts.

I like these additions (with the exception to maybe Berzerkers getting the + attack or + strength. They already get some pretty horrendous attacks and strength buffs from their mark now, but then perhaps it could be better expanded. Larger transports though?

I am absolutely in favor of open-topped war buggies the likes of which the Orks have. Why the hell hasn't this happened?

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I'd argue their business model simply has to fall in line. Considering how expensive this game is and the demands of the fan, I don't see it unreasonable for people to spend $100 on a Codex Tome, seeing as how people pay thousands for full battleforces, and then the BRB's are up in the 70's range anyways, if not more. The biggest problem I see with that idea though is updates, but then in the digital age (seeing as how digital is cheaper anyways), I also think they should invest more in digital copies that can be updated automatically without having to throw down another $50 every year or so when something new comes out. And better than that? Why not GW have a membership program? You pay a flat rate, say $10 a month or something, or maybe even a one time rate of $100, or even an annual rate or something, and you get whatever GW puts out digitally, for free.

The only reason why this doesn't fly is because their business model doesn't allow it to fly.

I could see GW moving towards a system similar to Steam once 3D printers become common. You have an account and pay 5£ for "Khorne Berzerkers," then 1£ per Khorne Berzerker you print.