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Would I be correct in thinking that the auto win would only happen after both players first turn?

Could I therefore bring everything in on my first turn and potentially nullify my opponents first turn if I go second with everything either arriving by DW assault or drop pods?

Don't forget that they have WS5 as well, this makes them better vs a lot of things. Codex orks is around the corner, and a standard terminator squad won't stand up to a mob of boyz, the knights however stand a pretty good chance of beating them down, hitting them on 3's, wounding on 2's and striking first.

WS5 T5 S6 and 2A is a scary stat line in cc, even once they have used their maces. If they can bring down a wraith knight, landraider or other similarly tough opposing model in 1 turn then they have done their job. Anything else they do is a bonus.

Edit:

Could I therefore bring everything in on my first turn and potentially nullify my opponents first turn if I go second with everything either arriving by DW assault or drop pods?

Yeah that's how it works.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Don't forget that they have WS5 as well, this makes them better vs a lot of things. Codex orks is around the corner, and a standard terminator squad won't stand up to a mob of boyz, the knights however stand a pretty good chance of beating them down, hitting them on 3's, wounding on 2's and striking first.

WS5 T5 S6 and 2A is a scary stat line in cc, even once they have used their maces. If they can bring down a wraith knight, landraider or other similarly tough opposing model in 1 turn then they have done their job. Anything else they do is a bonus.

Edit:

Could I therefore bring everything in on my first turn and potentially nullify my opponents first turn if I go second with everything either arriving by DW assault or drop pods?

Yeah that's how it works.

It seems I may have been using my army incorrectly for some time now, better dust off the drop pods!

DW Knights + Ezekiel + Sanctuary + Priest + LRC would make a serious assault bomb. Lots of variables though, still, if everything lines up right we got our own 2+/2++ rerollable death star.

I think LRs are the way to go with the DW. The buffs that 7th has given LRs is huge. The only downfall of the DW army is the points, thus supplementing them with regular DA seems to be the only way to make it work.

I only play low point games (under 1500) so a DW only army for me is never viable, although it is fun and usually a quick game!

Can you buy the DW Vehicle upgrade for the non dedicated LRC?

Have they FAQ'd if all terminators must come in the same turn, or can each squad choose?

I think it's cool that DW can do a 100% deepstrike move now, even though I've never played the army (a friend does). It seems more suitable for an entire army of terminators to enter via deepstrike than one or two squads.

Although, I think i'd respond the same way i do now when terminators drop in my face; out shoot them. 2+ are wicked, sure, but after I FRFSRF, they're probably paste.

I think it's important to prioritize targets for sure. Be doubly sure to get rid of any blatant ap2 before your opponent's turn or you're going to hate yourself. Tanks hate being near terminators and if you crowd a gunline quick enough they'll have no choice but to sit still and die.

I'm a fan of LR's too, my vanilla's never leave home without one, and with the vehicles getting a buff, LR spam may be the way to play DW.

I saw a game tonight where a DW player used the DW Assault vs IG/AM.

The only AP2 he had was from two Demolishers that were set up on the flanks, the rest was infantry and artillery (the new one, I don't recall it's name).

He DS in on the second part of turn one with Belial and a huge squad of Terminators, plus a DW Command Squad with the Dakka Banner.
Accompanied to this was two squads of Vets in Drop Pods armed with Flamers.

The DW player took apart the IG army like a surgeon uses a scalpel. He took out the command structure first using the Terminator squads firepower (Assault Cannons and Storm Bolters) and the mass Flamer fire.

He had two squadrons of bikes that turbo boosted in and got jink, further supported by the Ravenwing Save Buff Speeder.

Second turn was just a shambles as the IG player had no clue what to shoot at as he couldn't use the Demolishers as the DW and Vets were too close to key units. He also couldn't use orders as there were no Officers left.

DA turn two, two more DW squads came in. Lots of shooting thanks to the Dakka Banner and bike squads.

DW victory Turn 3 after IG player forfeited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bear in mind, this was not pure DW.

I've tried to write five different replies to this 'batrep' and I can't get one out that isn't sarcastic and demeaning, so I guess I'll go with 'lol?'.

Anyhow, I know from playing against DW deepstrikers they're a pain to get rid of. After all their fearless terminators that can take mixed bag units of gunners and storm shields, and get a STUPIDLY nasty HQ that buffs his squad like a madman.

Now that you can deepstrike everything? Man, the points cost for full DW is going to suck, but I think you'll make a lot of armies sweat.

Puscifer wrote:

He DS in on the second part of turn one with Belial and a huge squad of Terminators, plus a DW Command Squad with the Dakka Banner.
Accompanied to this was two squads of Vets in Drop Pods armed with Flamers.

The DW player took apart the IG army like a surgeon uses a scalpel. He took out the command structure first using the Terminator squads firepower (Assault Cannons and Storm Bolters) and the mass Flamer fire.

He had two squadrons of bikes that turbo boosted in and got jink, further supported by the Ravenwing Save Buff Speeder.

Second turn was just a shambles as the IG player had no clue what to shoot at as he couldn't use the Demolishers as the DW and Vets were too close to key units. He also couldn't use orders as there were no Officers left.

DA turn two, two more DW squads came in. Lots of shooting thanks to the Dakka Banner and bike squads.

Unless he rolled for the turn 2 DW to come in he was taking some "liberties" with the rules. All your Deathwing has to deathwing assault on the same turn. Second, it sounds like he was using the banner of devastation with stormbolters which in the digital codex is currently not able to benefit. So maybe he needs to go check his FAQ's again.

In the spirit of sharing tactics for DAs and DW specifically, here are a few tips I've learnt from experience:

1) don't expect a DW army to win you a GT, yeah 7th gave them a shot in the arm but a smart player knows how to counter these armies. High mobility armies (Eldars, bikes) are the bane of DW...

2) once you've accepted #1, have fun with this army! Play aggressively and put the pressure on with a close up DWA, try to put yourself in a position to pull off a second turn assault since heavy shooting is your enemy

3) Belial DSing with a HF unit is the tits! Use it to remove that key unit

Now in terms of how to build a 7th edition DW list, I still think that DW is similar to a drop-pod list, once you start with it you kinda need to go all the way. I still think the Standard of Fortitude is the way to go to improve your termies' durability; it means that you need to deploy your termies close together to ensure they're in the FNP bubble. At 2k I usually include Belial with TH/SS, a lvl2 libby in TDA, DWCS with SoF, 4 DW Termie units, a Mark V Mortis Dread with dual TLAC and a ven dread in a pod.

If you wanna include a LRC I'd stick Belial in it with a DW Termie squad and have the rest of the termies DS on turn 2 to give a chance for the LRC to turbo-boost forward. If the PFG nerf is gone I'd consider adding the libby with it inside the LRC. SoD is wasted on a pure DW list since it doesn't work on storm-bolters... It would be pure gold otherwise

In a non-DW list, I can see a Ezekiel-led list with DW Knights in a LRC, maybe a second lvl2 libby to generate a good amount of warp charges, Invisibility on those Knights would be awesome.

I still think RW is the way to go for straight competitiveness, the SoD really complements those TL bolters...

Cheers.

** Deep Breath **

DA got a boost in this edition. Nothing game breaking but I'd argue that the edge has gone to us a bit in terms of scoring points. Depending on which wing you go you can have scoring bikes or scoring terminators. As the objectives are now based on cards, you can effectively deep strike and secure objectives or just turbo boost around.

People tend to think of units that are nigh impossible to destroy or just units that decimate armies and that's a wrong way of looking at things. If you go for objectives you have so many options for denial units and scoring units that it's insane.

But let's talk about additional tactics regarding the current units that we have in our dex. DW knights are great against horde units and against chaos. Anything else and it's too limited by what it has. Sure you can go ST10 AP2 but it's only one turn. Against horde units or chaos you're looking at a unit that's AP3 (chaos) and able to ignore and destroy on a +2 on initiative.

Ravenwing has got a bit of a nerf but the units are still good. I'd advise against facing anything with AP3 or lower and utilizing hit and run tactics with the Ravenwing knights taking out tough targets.

Banners still add to the game. Devastation banner works well with bike heavy lists and greenwing. Fortitude works well with greenwing and deathwing. Deathwing especially because it allows them to survive more.

Vehicles are more durable so hurrah for the landraider and the dreadnought. Land speeders got a bit of a nerf as you get a choice between shooting or staying alive (insert staying alive song).

Air has become a bit better but almost negligible.

Also, if you're running a battle ready army and whatnot you should be able to use vetrans now as an alternative to terminators. Load them up with combi weapons and tailor it as a heavy hitter sacrifice unit.

Psychers got a boost. Divination is almost a must have as it helps you with the 'it gets hot' rule and makes everything twin-linked and the new psychic phase improved all our libbys.

PFG is almost a must have as you can now utilize them inside the vehicle for some extra toughness.

Finally (I'm sure I missed more) keep in mind that Azreal has the ability to choose tactic and give an entire unit a +4 inv save. DW knights give any unit with the inner circle a T5 with good positioning. We have preferred enemy against chaos space marines, we have stuborn USR, we have amazing options for scoring and denial units, and finally the leadership of Azreal is for everyone on the field.

I disagree with a few of these actually Inkubas.

DW knights are great against horde units and against chaos. Anything else and it's too limited by what it has.

They are limited by being WS5 T5 S6 with 2 attacks each? I don't see it, their stat line is great, and their dps output is still high vs most targets.
5 DWK charging a tac squad deals 5 wounds on average. 5 TH/SS terminators charging a tac squad deal 6 wounds on average. The difference isn't that great. And this doesn't factor in the chance that a TH/SS or 2 may die before swinging.

Ravenwing has got a bit of a nerf but the units are still good.

2) Ravenwing didn't get a nerf, they took a side step. Whilst they can no longer shoot and jink, in return they received an improved jink save on demand, and can get it even if they did not move the previous turn. This is fantastic, as they no longer desperately need the 1st turn to boost their survivability. Also they can now get a 4+ jink save and still charge in their next turn, which was impossible before. Black knights can now get a 2+ cover save when next to a darkshroud, even if they didn't boost.

Land speeders got a bit of a nerf

3) No. They got better. all vehicles got better of course, but landspeeders in DA can be taken as scoring units in a RW army. Objective secured landspeeders is certainly not a nerf, and now gives RW players a greater reason to take them again. Sure the 5+ save before might have helped before, but most of the time it was a fools hope believing that it would save you. The 4+ save offers a 50% increase in protection. On an AV 10 platform this is still not a bad thing.

Psychers got a boost. Divination is almost a must have as it helps you with the 'it gets hot' rule and makes everything twin-linked and the new psychic phase improved all our libbys.

4) I'm not sure about this. Getting off psychic powers is much more difficult than before, and any DW/RW army will have 1 librarian at most so are shorter than many armies on power dice. If you run up against a GK or Daemons army with 15 power dice a turn you are going to have a much harder time getting anything off, even before you consider that LD 10 rolls were much more reliable than the new system.

PFG is almost a must have as you can now utilize them inside the vehicle for some extra toughness.

5) This is probably incorrect. Whilst the PFG was removed from the FAQ, the digital codex actually had its wording changed to stop the pfg from working outside of a vehicle. At the moment DA have 2 separate Codices it seems.

1) I wouldn't charge a DWK into a tac squad if i can be helped. When I said horde units, I meant massive amounts of orks, nids, guard. Units that can break, T3, W3 or lower and have a 4+ or higher.

2)Sure you get a higher jink but now you have to choose between either having your units miss and survive or having your units not get cover saves and fire. I'd say that it forces a choice between do I want to get more shots in and kill my threats or do I want to evade and hope to survive. The choice, I feel is a nerf.

3) Same point as 2. Only a landspeeder still has poor armor. Before it could have just moved and enjoyed some protection from shots. Now you have no such option. If I go with the ML build, I can snap fire (g'luck with that) or I can have some form of protection (jink).

2 & 3) If I have to choose between shooting and surviving that's a nerf as it decreases the effectiveness of both

4)Everything about DA is about using your advantages. Psychers got a boost. Just because we can't out psych an army with massive psychers doesn't take away from the fact that now with psychers are more effective. Having a psycher stick to one focus gives you the primaris for free which gives you more options. More options permit for a better support unit. Some of the spells like the new santic ones provide additional support that blends well with DW

5) I had to re-read it's still useful but I misunderstood it. Here's the FAQ quote

Page 64 – Power Field Generator
Add “If the beareris embarked upon a Transport vehicle, the
powerfield’s effects only apply to models embarked upon that
vehicle”.

So it won't work with the vehicle itself. I'd still opt out to use it with an IC and utilize the DW Vehicle rule. Anything hitting any LR would need to hit with a weapon that's ST8 or higher then pass a 50/50 roll and then roll two sixes.

 Inkubas wrote:
1) I wouldn't charge a DWK into a tac squad if i can be helped. When I said horde units, I meant massive amounts of orks, nids, guard. Units that can break, T3, W3 or lower and have a 4+ or higher.

2)Sure you get a higher jink but now you have to choose between either having your units miss and survive or having your units not get cover saves and fire. I'd say that it forces a choice between do I want to get more shots in and kill my threats or do I want to evade and hope to survive. The choice, I feel is a nerf.

3) Same point as 2. Only a landspeeder still has poor armor. Before it could have just moved and enjoyed some protection from shots. Now you have no such option. If I go with the ML build, I can snap fire (g'luck with that) or I can have some form of protection (jink).

1) I know Tac squads aren't hordes, thats why I used them. You said DWK are lacking when it comes to fighting things which are not hordes or chaos, I used tac squads as an example to show you that DWK damage output is very comparable to other assault terminators, even when not powering their weapons. When powering their weapons they of course become much harder hitting.

2) There are some negatives, but there are many positives too. The jink changes were just that tbh, changes. Things got neither better nor worse, just different. There are too many new benefits to say it is a nerf imo.

3) But you are ignoring the fact that now they are scoring, and can potentially be more durable than before. If a speeder was shot before then it stood a good chance of blowing up, now it has a much better chance of surviving.

2 & 3) If I have to choose between shooting and surviving that's a nerf as it decreases the effectiveness of both

Its not a nerf when the protection received is now increased. Sure, if it was the same protection as before it would be a nerf, but its not.

4)Everything about DA is about using your advantages. Psychers got a boost. Just because we can't out psych an army with massive psychers doesn't take away from the fact that now with psychers are more effective

You are missing the point here. Psykers didn't get a boost. Particularly in armies that cannot spam them. Sure, you now get 1 more power than before, you are also more likely to get perils and are less likely to cast the spell in the first place, and more likely to be denied against strong psychic lists.

Hammer time!

DWK vs TAC squad

5 Knights (235) vs 10 man squad (140)
Knights get the charge:
12 knight attacks
4 Knight master attacks
Total of 16 attacks - 10 attacks land - 8 attacks wound - 3+ armor save which results in 2.6 or 3 dead marines

DW Assault squad w/ claws
20 attacks - 10 land - 7.5 or 8 wounds - No armor save (AP3) - so 8 dead marines.

DWK vs Horde of guard

Total of 16 attacks - 10 attacks land - 8 attacks wound (no saves) = 8 dead guards

DW assault w/ Claws

20 Attacks - 13 hits land - 9 wounds (no saves) = 9 dead guards

Against horde units they're solid because they negate the armor saves. They also pack a punch against anything chaos due to the fact you reroll ones and against vehicles and MC due the the superman hammer thing. Anything other than that and I'd just go with a cheaper assault squad or regular terminators. I wouldn't use DWK against any space marines as they're not that efficient.

Sure you can't pop a land speeder as easily but it's still 2 HP and without cover saves you're kind of at the mercy of line of sight and making sure you're on some sort of cover/night fighting.

Scoring also means squat if the unit is dead easy.


Anyway, I still disagree with you but since I can't defend 2,3,4 with anything outside my experience with 7th edition thus far. I'll come back to this once I've played more games and the internet has more data.

I do look forward to more tactica threads though. Curious as to what my other cloth brothers have come up with.

 Inkubas wrote:

5 Knightsvs 10 man squad
Knights get the charge:
12 knight attacks
4 Knight master attacks
Total of 16 attacks - 10 attacks land - 8 attacks wound - 3+ armor save which results in 2.6 or 3 dead marines

Sorry, this is not right. The 4 knights average 2.222 wounds in total. The knight master also adds another 2.222 wounds, as he has an AP3 weapon. Then you forgot the HoW hits which gives a further 0.833 Wounds.
In total these come to 5.28 wounds.

With only thunder hammers or PFs, a regular terminator squad will cause 6.25 wounds on the charge (if none of them die first).

LC terminators are the best at killing tac marines, but do you really run a squad of 5? Normally you will see 2 at most in a squad. Personally I don't run any, as they take away from the squads ability to deal with MCs and vehicles.
TH/SS are the only thing that really make DW squads slightly competitive imo and I wouldn't want to trade them out for LCs.

just go with a cheaper assault squad or regular terminators

DWK are cheaper than a kitted out DW terminator squad, either shooting or assault. That is why they are such great value. They are 3 points cheaper than a DW terminator with TH/SS. If you factor in the T5 they have a much better survivability per point vs low str weapons.

Of course ideally you wouldn't charge tac marines with them, you would want to charge Wraithknights/ GUO with iron arm. Or hordes. But I would rather have them in my list than not, as they provide a counter to threats that regular terminators struggle to deal with.

The biggest problem for knights in 7th may be the rise of multiple cheap walkers. AV12 will slow them down, and wasting their charge to take a 100 points dreadnought is a bit disappointing.
We will have to see how much more common walkers become.

Regarding speeders:

2 HP and without cover saves you're kind of at the mercy of line of sight

As is every other AV10/11 vehicle in the game. However speeders do have a 4+ cover save wherever they want. In 6th edition if my speeder got shot and I had the choice between a 5+ save and firing normally, or a 4+ save and snapfire, I'd go with the 4+ every time (unless there was some specific reason that I needed the speeder to shoot next turn).A living speeder firing snapshots is worth more to me than a dead one.

Scoring also means squat if the unit is dead easy.

30 inch move to potentially score or contest, and the an improved damage table along with an improved 4+ cover save still makes it a potentially competitive choice I would say. If you run HB/CML speeders then they can kite around the back of the board and put fire down, and then move to score in the last turn.

Actually, 5 DWK vs 10 Tacs, Knights get the charge looks like:
5/4
5x hammer of wrath-1.38 dead.
12x Knight attacks-2.22
4x Master attacks-2.22
Average of 5 dead marines, high probability of 6+.

5x DW Assault squad, claws, charge. 4/4
Rerolls to wound.
Marines dead-7.5.

DWK vs guard. 5/3
5 HoW, flak armour-2.77, carapace-2.08
16x Attacks (no master buff)-8.88
Average 10-11.

DW Squad, Claws, charge. 4/3
20 attacks
Rerolls to wound.
Average 11.85 kills.

However, lightning claws are an unusual load out, and DW knights hold an edge over terminators. And nothing holds a candle to them when they run on smite.

DWK all the way for me, simply cause I love the models.
Both however, are good.

Ninja'd, damn. Ah well.

@Inkubas: Fair point about the damage output against MEQ with the Knights, but you do omit the fact that some of the value of the Knights is in the much, much better defence. T5 means the wounds landed by the Tac squad drops by 33%, and the 3++ makes them much more survivable against power axes/fists that a lot of squads keep for just such situations. So while I agree they aren't good against MEQ damage-wise, they're far better for tying up units than Assault Termies, and also survive longer to do more damage over time.

Also, MEQ are not their primary target. In the same way a Lascannon matches a Grenade Launcher against Fire Warriors at 24", that doesn't mean the Lascannon isn't vastly superior against other targets. I'd like to see the LC termies do even half as well against an MC or AV13+ tank as Smite-mode Knights.

The Knights, quite simply, need to be pointed at the biggest, baddest target, smash it to oblivion faster than anything else in the army could, and anything after that is a bonus.

Ninja'd but the point still stands.

Deathwind launchers in droppods can apparently fire on the turn they deepstrike now.

Drop Deathwind launchers on one side.
Drop Deathwing on other side.
keep scouts at back objectives.

BBB I did miss the HoW but I still maintain that DWK are anti MC, choas and horde which I think we both agree on. I love the model but I keep them at home against marines.
You did sway me regarding the increase in damage due to the knight master. I got used to being in challenges that I forgot he's ap3 which does change some things. I will also agree that this edition is more about scoring and less about kills so jinks may be a blessing in disguise but still one that I have yet to fully appreciate. Time will tell.
I tend to run specialized squads. Occasionally I run them mixed but for the most part its all TH/SS or LC. Put them in either LRC or LRR depending on squad with a Chaplin or Librarian. Refilling hits and wounds is most awesome. My favorite is LRR as AP3 followed by assault is devastating to anything that is in cover or +3 or higher. Also a great threat that pulls attention away from my bikes or anything else.

I like this anything that boots the DA player base. Also have an exalt.

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Deathwind launchers in droppods can apparently fire on the turn they deepstrike now.

Drop Deathwind launchers on one side.
Drop Deathwing on other side.
keep scouts at back objectives.

Interesting idea, but if I were running several pods and DW, I'd be tempted to go for both on the same side, simply because I would choose to DWA T2, using locators on the pods to get precision drops. It does rely on the pods surviving, but if they shoot the pods, they aren't shooting the contents. Perhaps dual combi-vet squads in pods as the first wave, DWA and a Dread Pod T2?

Edited as I need to look up his army and rules.

I still maintain that DWK are anti MC, choas and horde

Yeah sure, I totally agree, that is where they really shine. I really take them to deal with wraithknights, as getting those 4+ to hit, and then 4+ to wound with normal terminators takes a long time, and the knight has a good chance to grind them down.

Outside of these situations though they still compare well to a TH/SS squad.

I wish I could use LC terminators, as I do like the look of them, but the change to AP3 in 6th ed nerfed them, as did the increase in numbers of high toughness MCs, and now with 7th and the rise of vehicle spam lists again I just can't justify a place for them.

Yup.

Shenanigans.

He did misread the rules on DW Assault and splitting his DW up.

You could stick a DW squad in standard reserve and have it come down later in the game.

He might have done that with both.

Not sure.

He did roll for them.

You must declare which units are making a DW assault at the start of the game, and make a note of which turn they will arrive, although this is a secret until it happens.

Not all units which are able to be part of a DW assault have to do so, however the ones that do must all arrive on the same turn. This happens automatically without the need for reserve rolls.

If you leave terminators in reserve that are not part of a DW assault, then you must roll for them normally.


The SoD banner has absolutely no effect on terminators, as it does not effect storm bolters.

 Paradigm wrote:

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Deathwind launchers in droppods can apparently fire on the turn they deepstrike now.

Drop Deathwind launchers on one side.
Drop Deathwing on other side.
keep scouts at back objectives.

Interesting idea, but if I were running several pods and DW, I'd be tempted to go for both on the same side, simply because I would choose to DWA T2, using locators on the pods to get precision drops. It does rely on the pods surviving, but if they shoot the pods, they aren't shooting the contents. Perhaps dual combi-vet squads in pods as the first wave, DWA and a Dread Pod T2?

Main reason to separate them is the limited range of deathwind launchers and reducing friendly targets while maximizing enemy targets. more a prefference.