IG foot army, HW teams

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Thunder212**

I am wondering if it is viable to build a 750 point army around a 20-30 man infantry blob with commisar and 3 autocannon or ML, one leman russ, and only additional infantry squads with autocannons or las each. i was consider a HWT or two with las if needed, but am inexperienced competitively speaking, wondering as to everyone elses thoughts. i dont really want to play mech

**Paradigm**

It's certainly doable, but I think to be honest I'd hesitate to run less than around 40-50 models for a foot list at 750 (unless I was using foot-vets)

But something like:

Lord Commissar, power sword: 75

PCS, 4x flamers: 50

PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70

PCS: 30

PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70

Leman Russ Vanquisher, Lascannon, Plasmacannons: 175

Comes out at around 750 (might be a few points off, I don't have the new codex to hand), and seems to be what you're going for, a nice shooty list with a Russ in support. Alternatively, you could take an anti-infantry Russ such as the HB Punisher as the Lascannons cover your anti-tank at 750 quite well. You could also drop the 6th Infantry squad and buy an ADL and flamers for the second PCS.

Remember, there's no requirement to blob a platoon, so you can have one blobbed and 3 separate squads, or all 6 on their own, or 2 20s and 2 10s. Plenty of flexibility depending on mission and opponent.

In general, it's better to run Heavy weapons in Platoons than in HWS, as you get better leadership, more ablative wounds and more benefit from orders.

Hope that helps.

**Thunder212**

ok, so the lord commisar is preferable for its aura of leadership, even thought it can be independantly targetted? also, would you suggest the HB russ over the battle cannon? the fairly strong template seems awesome to me. also, under what circumstances would you suggest i employ the autocannons i have?

**Paradigm**

The Lord Commissar can attach himself to one of the infantry blobs, so he's actually a very survivable warlord, and even without the Aura of Discipline he still gives his squad Ld10 that can be used for orders, so pass the test most of the time. There's also a 1/3 chance he'll roll a Warlord Trait giving him access to Orders if you use the IG trait table, which would be really good.

With Russes, the best options are to specialise, and really, the standard Battle Cannon is just too middle-of-the-road to be that useful. That, and the fact you have to Snap Fire everything else if you fire it because of the Ordnance rule. Also, if your opponent spaces his models well, even a Large Blast is only hitting 3-4 guys.

So if you want more anti-tank/MC, take a Vanquisher with Lascannon and Plasma cannons, it puts out a load of AP2 shots at good range. If you want anti-infantry, take a Punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters, 29 S5 shots will hurt hordes a lot.

For the Autocannons, the best bet is to replace the Lascannons in the second platoon with them, and use the saved points to buy Flamers for the other PCS and maybe on the Infantry Squads as well if you have the models.

**Mr.Omega**

Foot Guard is only good if supported by anti-infantry and AT tanks or artillery, and pure HW Foot Guard is incredibly overrated.

Paying 210 points for a 3 Lascannon blob is absurd. If you keep them still from turn 1, you're probably wasting the better part of 150 points. If you move them, you're wasting 60 points and the entire purpose of the upgrades in the first place. If I take blobs I always optimise them for offence, and If I ever were to take a defensive blob (and I see even less point given everything scores now) I'd only do it If I had an ADL.

Frankly, having your core be 6 BS3 Lascannons is just poor. Tau and Eldar will just get shooting practice. Anything like a Thunderfire Cannon or Wyvern will wipe half the blob in a turn and then pin it if you haven't wasted even more points on trying to get 3 BS3 Lascannons by adding morale buffers.

My fluff is that my regiment is a recon regiment, so I usually field blobs of 30 men with flamers/meltaguns and a vox or two. I also regularly take Cypher and create a rampaging mob of hit-and-run Guardsmen that outflanks.

Foot Vets are *maybe* reasonable if your board isn't a shooting range and there's a decent amount of cover/LOS blockage, but otherwise, forget it. Oh, and if you know a single person that plays Tau, don't even bother with Footvets. You'll essentially auto lose before the game even begins because even with camo cloaks 3/4 of his units can wipe a squad of Footvets off the board in a single round. I found this out the hard way last week when I ran 40 Cloak Vets and a Creed CCS and lost them all in 3 turns (half on the first turn) to a Riptide, Sniper Drone Squad, Ionhead, a few Firewarriors and Pathfinders.

**Paradigm**

Mr.Omega wrote:
Foot Guard is only good if supported by anti-infantry and AT tanks or artillery, and pure HW Foot Guard is incredibly overrated.

Paying 210 points for a 3 Lascannon blob is absurd. If you keep them still from turn 1, you're probably wasting the better part of 150 points. If you move them, you're wasting 60 points and the entire purpose of the upgrades in the first place. If I take blobs I always optimise them for offence, and If I ever were to take a defensive blob (and I see even less point given everything scores now) I'd only do it If I had an ADL.

But there is nothing saying you have to keep them still all game OR move them. In fact, there's every chance you'll be doing both, sitting back for the first couple of turns and then moving up once things have been softened up a bit. The LC don't need to fire every turn to be worth their points. I fail to see how everything scoring negates the idea of a defensive squad, as a) the Platoon is still trumps-all scoring and b) there's more to defence than just objectives, such as board control and staying alive, which is easier to do away from the enemy.

Frankly, having your core be 6 BS3 Lascannons is just poor. Tau and Eldar will just get shooting practice. Anything like a Thunderfire Cannon or Wyvern will wipe half the blob in a turn and then pin it if you haven't wasted even more points on trying to get 3 BS3 Lascannons by adding morale buffers.

'Tau and Eldar will just get shooting practice'. In a truly competitive environment, this is pretty much true of every single army. But what you forget is that the 48" range of the Lascannon allows to to actually outrange Fire Warriors and almost anything Eldar (apart from Serpent Shields, which then leaves them open to Lascannon damage the next turn). Deploy further back, prioritise the hard targets with the Lascannons, and once they're crippled, then you move up. Also, Tau and Eldar are only two armies of many, not everyone is going to be playing them and against other armies this setup is very useful.

Foot Vets are *maybe* reasonable if your board isn't a shooting range and there's a decent amount of cover/LOS blockage, but otherwise, forget it. Oh, and if you know a single person that plays Tau, don't even bother with Footvets. You'll essentially auto lose before the game even begins because even with camo cloaks 3/4 of his units can wipe a squad of Footvets off the board in a single round. I found this out the hard way last week when I ran 40 Cloak Vets and a Creed CCS and lost them all in 3 turns (half on the first turn) to a Riptide, Sniper Drone Squad, Ionhead, a few Firewarriors and Pathfinders.

Firstly, this is a 750 point list, there's no way Tau can bring that much firepower in that kind of list. Certainly, if you just make a charge for objectives and try and outshoot them things will go badly, but there are ways to beat Tau, especially at 750 where the big guns they can bring are limited. You also forget that the OP is looking to use a Russ as well, not just foot troops, so a lot of the heavier firepower will be going towards killing that, and at the same time it can deal with those hard targets.

Second, cover and LOS-blocking will benefit blobs as much as vets. I agree that too little terrain does give Tau a big advantage, but there's no such thing as 'auto-losing'. Good tactics and player skill can overcome a perceived statistical advantage.

Lastly, if you're ruling out footvets and blobs, then what can you suggest? The OP doesn't want a mech list, so those are the options, and both have merits.

**MadMaverick76**

I partially agree with the placement of the HW in IS. I would just kit them out with flamers and use them to partially tarpit any attacks on the tank.

Blobs have always had a sour taste for me. They are big and blobby, but with so much template and such squishy troops, I don't know how to get them to survive.

I always start by making a Blob army, but then it always turns to a melta-vet-chimera mech army...

**Mr.Omega**

Paradigm wrote:
Mr.Omega wrote:
Foot Guard is only good if supported by anti-infantry and AT tanks or artillery, and pure HW Foot Guard is incredibly overrated.

Paying 210 points for a 3 Lascannon blob is absurd. If you keep them still from turn 1, you're probably wasting the better part of 150 points. If you move them, you're wasting 60 points and the entire purpose of the upgrades in the first place. If I take blobs I always optimise them for offence, and If I ever were to take a defensive blob (and I see even less point given everything scores now) I'd only do it If I had an ADL.

But there is nothing saying you have to keep them still all game OR move them.

Good luck getting the blob anywhere decent if they're staying further than 36'' from most things and have spent turns 1-2 standing idle.

In fact, there's every chance you'll be doing both, sitting back for the first couple of turns and then moving up once things have been softened up a bit.

This assumes you haven't been pounded in oblivion by Thunderfire/Wyvern equivalents having effectively used the unit for nothing other than naff Lascannon fire, and as above moving forward becomes impractical as a strategy if you don't start early. The fact that for turns 1-2 turns 300 points worth of Guardsmen are going towards literally nothing other than being a target, and a delicious one at that for Thunderfire equivalents is very iffy.

The LC don't need to fire every turn to be worth their points.

Its about the cost efficiency of the blob though, not the LC, even though the cost effieciency of that itself is poor when I can get 3 Armoured Sentinel Lascannon teams or even a Vendetta for less than an LC blob, and very little of what you pay for isn't used consistently.

I fail to see how everything scoring negates the idea of a defensive squad, as a) the Platoon is still trumps-all scoring

This is at the back of the board, and is of situational and limited use. Anything that can reach such an objective is probably about to do a ton of damage to the blob (see: Drop Pods) and the intruders can be destroyed by having a superior unit in the place of the blob or by using your firepower reserves anyway- I won't contest that the benefit can be useful but I don't feel the opportunity cost and the points cost here is appropriate.

and b) there's more to defence than just objectives, such as board control and staying alive, which is easier to do away from the enemy.

The best offence is the best defence. If I'm charging my offensive blobs forward I'm making use of all the points invested in that blob and I'm more likely to kill or contribute to a kill indirectly or directly. Board control isn't exactly something the AM excel at and with these sorts of blobs, how on Earth are you ever in a million years going to achieve it? Best case scenario, your blobs aren't severely depleted and you spend turns 3-6 engulfing the board with bodies. What do you think the odds of that are though?

Frankly, having your core be 6 BS3 Lascannons is just poor. Tau and Eldar will just get shooting practice. Anything like a Thunderfire Cannon or Wyvern will wipe half the blob in a turn and then pin it if you haven't wasted even more points on trying to get 3 BS3 Lascannons by adding morale buffers.

'Tau and Eldar will just get shooting practice'. In a truly competitive environment, this is pretty much true of every single army.

True!

But what you forget is that the 48" range of the Lascannon allows to to actually outrange Fire Warriors

Hence you're wasting all the points invested in Lasgun Guardsmen, because they're not going to reach the Tau infantry lines at a decent distance if you do that. This is a contradiction of ideas.

and almost anything Eldar (apart from Serpent Shields, which then leaves them open to Lascannon damage the next turn).

Their army is very fast moving and they have a fair few 36'' range S6 guns. Plus, Swooping Hawks if present will brutalise the blob to the point of obscene.

Deploy further back,

As above

prioritise the hard targets with the Lascannons, and once they're crippled, then you move up.

Again, contradiction of ideas. Guardsmen do not move fast with their tiny little legs and deploying them miles away out of range so you can not get obliterated and actually make use of the Lascannon aspect decently (whilst degrading the value of the rest of the blob) is not practical. This is as if you also expect 3 BS3 Lascannons to do anything expect maybe pop 1 vehicle or put on 1 wound or 2 on a monstrous creature.

Also, Tau and Eldar are only two armies of many, not everyone is going to be playing them and against other armies this setup is very useful.

Steve TG and his buddies are going to be playing it. If you don't have at least 1-2 of either in your local meta then count yourself lucky. SM/AM get Thunderfires/Wyverns and GEQ massacre weapons/pie plates out the ass, Necrons have vehicles that aren't going to be intimidated much by your Lascannons and Anni Barges/Gauss everywhere, Dark Eldar... well, Dark Eldar.

Really, why am I naming hard counters to GEQ?

Foot Vets are *maybe* reasonable if your board isn't a shooting range and there's a decent amount of cover/LOS blockage, but otherwise, forget it. Oh, and if you know a single person that plays Tau, don't even bother with Footvets. You'll essentially auto lose before the game even begins because even with camo cloaks 3/4 of his units can wipe a squad of Footvets off the board in a single round. I found this out the hard way last week when I ran 40 Cloak Vets and a Creed CCS and lost them all in 3 turns (half on the first turn) to a Riptide, Sniper Drone Squad, Ionhead, a few Firewarriors and Pathfinders.

Firstly, this is a 750 point lisT there's no way Tau can bring that much firepower in that kind of list.

That was in a 900 point game wherein I pinned a Firewarrior squad of 12 using a Warlord trait on the first turn. There's very little difference.

Certainly, if you just make a charge for objectives

What else is there to do? Stand on home objectives and die there too? Reserve my army so they die in turn 2-3 instead and have even more ground to cover? The terrain wasn't widespread save for mid-field bastions I never entered (no opportunity) and a few hedges so the only real shot I had was hoping he would roll terrible. Instead, he rolled average.

and try and outshoot them things will go badly, but there are ways to beat Tau, especially at 750 where the big guns they can bring are limited.

You're mostly just naming out of context pseudo-logic here, so specifically, [citation needed]

Given the inventory of that 900 list I gave, which ripped 40 Cloak Vets to pieces before half of them even moved, and the fact that Foot Vets are never going to kill a competent player with a Riptide in a bazillion years (you're not going to be able to afford an Executioner with Plasma Cannons at this points level and not have a garbage selection of Vets here) I doubt the trivialisation of their firepower you're doing here.

You also forget that the OP is looking to use a Russ as well, not just foot troops, so a lot of the heavier firepower will be going towards killing that,

None of the anti-infantry wiping multiple squads a turn will go towards killing it.

and at the same time it can deal with those hard targets.

One at a time, maybe, assuming it doesn't die, and in a limited fashion against some of what you come up against unless you have a practically unaffordable Executioner with Plasma sponsons here.

Second, cover and LOS-blocking will benefit blobs as much as vets. I agree that too little terrain does give Tau a big advantage, but there's no such thing as 'auto-losing'. Good tactics and player skill can overcome a perceived statistical advantage.

Read my plight above. Auto-losing is very much a thing and I've lost count of the number of times I've called a game with Tau having taken a cursory glance at the armies. Unless one player has specifically planned for Riptides in the back of their mind they're usually boned.

Lastly, if you're ruling out footvets and blobs, then what can you suggest? The OP doesn't want a mech list, so those are the options, and both have merits.

I never ruled out Foot blobs, I just disagree with the notion that pure HWT platoon lists and Foot Vets are viable.

**Lothar**

Paradigm:

I partialy agree with Omega, although some of his saying is just too harsh. At 750 points, two 30 man LC blobs with a Leman is not enough. I play in semi-compettitive environment. In the last 750 points battle I played with Guard was against Eldar - 3 wave serpents, 3x 10 guardians/stormguardians(with meltas), warlocks, farseer...this army would obliterate the list you posted above without breaking a sweet and I have been told that it is friendly so I have at least some chance (it is true that competitive eldar list at 750 points can be better). And your 6 LCs would not do much against that force...

**Paradigm**

So what would you run at 750 for a take-all-comers list (ie. more than just Wave Serpents) that uses foot-based troops?

Admittedly, the list I posted was based purely on the OP's specifications, I'd probably go for more aggressive setups myself but that wasn't what was being asked.

At 750, and not fully competitive but capable of holding its own, I'd run something like this:

CCS, Lascannon: 80

Priest: 25
Priest: 25

PIS: 4x Flamers: 50

PIS: Flamer: 55
PIS, Flamer: 55
PIS, Flamer: 55

30 Conscripts: 90

PCS, 3x Flamers: 30

PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70

20 Conscripts: 60

ADL: 50

750 points, 127 models. I doubt most 750 lists could deal with that, especially with the ADL and assuming good terrain coverage (Mr Omega, it sounds like you were using very little terrain against the Tau). The LC platoon and CCS sit behind an ADL (BID makes the lascannons better) while the Conscripts and Flamer platoon move up to push for objectives and go for CC if needed.

On mobility of Guard platoons, with Move, Move, Move, they have an average movement of 6+4/5 inches, or you can use FFTE to move extra without losing firepower. They aren't as slow as you make out.

**Lothar**

Seems much better. But do not expect BiD from CCS, because everyone savvy will go for that unit first. You can go to ground to save your neck for a turn (if enemy has no ignores cover or barrage) but again, without BiD the next turn.

Also, flamers in infantry squads seems to be a waste of points (who would charge that unit with priest inside? Its easier to shot it down with bolters/lasguns/shurikens/...) since I dont expect them to get in range (they cant do that footslogging)

CCS, vox

PCS
PIS, AC
PIS, AC

40 Conscripts, Priest

PCS, AC

4xPIS, 4x LC, vox

ADL: 50

745 points, without allies. I dont think CCS needs a weapon, its a big target on its own and should be hidden out of LOS if possible.

**Paradigm**

In theory, the CCS wil be out of LOS, making them much less of a threat, and with only the Lascannon poking out and shooting. So orders should be around for a while.

The flamers in the infantry squads are A) for some defence if they're charged) and B) for softening up targets before they charge. If the points were there I'd swap out for Melta, but there aren't any free.

As for making it into range, I'm fairly confident 70 Guardsmen can make it up field against most 750 lists (barring the ultra-competitive broken stuff) and the priests make sure you get the most of those hits. Especially when they're either moving at almost double speed with MMM or moving and firing with FFTE.

**Lothar**

CCS should be out of LOS if possible, but it will not save it all the time. Alas, it almost never is in my games thank to deep strike, vector dance flyers, helldrakes and barrages.

**Thunder212**

Paradigm wrote:

CCS, Lascannon: 80

Priest: 25
Priest: 25

PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70

20 Conscripts: 60

ADL: 50

so would i put the priests in the conscript groups? what if i fight an enemy force of mostly armor, will i essentially get rolled over, or should i try and take more las for fighting the different players i know? by armor i mean say, other ig who are perhaps leman russ heavy. (3)?

**schadenfreude**

750 is a difficult point value for IG.

The value of LC PIS over vet squads is the ability to make better use of buffs like orders or prescience.

once you get to 1k you can start combos like yarrik joining the squad for ld 10 on oders to his own squad, man an icarus lc for a 4th lc in the squad, prescience it, then dakka away with 4 tl lc that have ignore cover from orders.

750 is an odd duck. I would avoid double platoons there because of the cost and field 1 platoon then vet squads for the +1bs. Having 2 platoons and no sr officer is running 2 platoons without it's primary buffing unit.

**Paradigm**

Thunder212 wrote:
Paradigm wrote:

CCS, Lascannon: 80

Priest: 25
Priest: 25

PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70

20 Conscripts: 60

ADL: 50

so would i put the priests in the conscript groups? what if i fight an enemy force of mostly armor, will i essentially get rolled over, or should i try and take more las for fighting the different players i know? by armor i mean say, other ig who are perhaps leman russ heavy. (3)?

Priests go either with the Flamer platoon and a conscript squad or both conscript squads to make sure they're more dangerous when they get a charge and likely to get there thanks to Fearless.

I doubt you'll see an all-armour force at 750, and 3 Russes at 750 would be very much a dick move. But if there is a lot of armour in your meta, drop the some flamers on the PCS and upgrade the flamers to Meltaguns. 4 Las and 3 Melta should handle armour at 750. Also, remember to play the mission: you have a lot of bodies to hold objectives that are all Objective Secured Scoring.

**MadMaverick76**

A more common 750 pt. AM force I am seeing, and now currently playing....

-3x LRBTs (typically Vanquishers or Punishers)
-2x Chimera-Melta-Vets.

How would you get the melta in range? It seems the mech list could just castle up and shoot the blobs. 3x LC to handle the tanks would be a tough call? I don't play Blobs, I am a mech player (limited experience).

**Paradigm**

MadMaverick76 wrote:
A more common 750 pt. AM force I am seeing, and now currently playing....

-3x LRBTs (typically Vanquishers or Punishers)
-2x Chimera-Melta-Vets.

How would you get the melta in range? It seems the mech list could just castle up and shoot the blobs. 3x LC to handle the tanks would be a tough call? I don't play Blobs, I am a mech player (limited experience).

To be honest, that'd be a hard list for anyone to take on (except possibly Podding Marines), 3 AV14s at 750 is crazy. In this case, I think the best bet would be simply to try and play the objective game as best as possible and try to avoid the Punisher, as I really don't see what any foot list could do against this. It's just a complete hard counter.

**MadMaverick76**

Paradigm wrote:
MadMaverick76 wrote:
A more common 750 pt. AM force I am seeing, and now currently playing....

-3x LRBTs (typically Vanquishers or Punishers)
-2x Chimera-Melta-Vets.

How would you get the melta in range? It seems the mech list could just castle up and shoot the blobs. 3x LC to handle the tanks would be a tough call? I don't play Blobs, I am a mech player (limited experience).

To be honest, that'd be a hard list for anyone to take on (except possibly Podding Marines), 3 AV14s at 750 is crazy. In this case, I think the best bet would be simply to try and play the objective game as best as possible and try to avoid the Punisher, as I really don't see what any foot list could do against this. It's just a complete hard counter.

So far I have gone 3-0-0. I only play small games, but I have been told that another player is "tailoring" his list to counter it. So we shall see. He typically plays Chaos...

**Lothar**

schadenfreude wrote:
750 is a difficult point value for IG.

The value of LC PIS over vet squads is the ability to make better use of buffs like orders or prescience.

once you get to 1k you can start combos like yarrik joining the squad for ld 10 on oders to his own squad, man an icarus lc for a 4th lc in the squad, prescience it, then dakka away with 4 tl lc that have ignore cover from orders.

750 is an odd duck. I would avoid double platoons there because of the cost and field 1 platoon then vet squads for the +1bs. Having 2 platoons and no sr officer is running 2 platoons without it's primary buffing unit.

I would agree with you, but only in 6th edition. In 7th, its not a good call to waste points on prescience, because you a) lose a lot of points, b) have not a good chance to cast it. It is now not worth the points. You either have only mediocre chance to cast it or very small chance, thx to enemy deny the witch. Moreso, Icarus LC can now only snap shot non flyer targets...so i would not bother with it for its price.

And Yarrick in a LC blob is not really a combo, because of its low firepower - you pay 355 points for 3 LC shots with order...hell no, not worth it!