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Since it seems that the Heldrake is no longer one of the best flyers in the game. It still seems to be somewhat viable, but would the Baleflamer still be the go to weapon or the Hades Autocannon?

The Drake itself is boned on multiple accounts

For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules)

The Hades Autocannon also bloody sucks for the simple reason that you can't shoot enemy flyers at rear armor now (Which was the main reason for even considering the Hades Autocannon over the Baleflamer) Now that you cannot do so, there is never a reason to take the gun, ever.

Our Vector Strike got nerfed against ground units in junction with our ability to pop Transports then subsequently burn the little buggers who survive, so again, the drake is boned.

I'm no longer fielding them. They're on the shelf. I'll be taking Forge World models like Hell Talons and Hell Blades from now on. At least they're cheaper and have their functionality maintained throughout the past year and a bit.

Most of my armies are still terrified of the Helldrake. It can still basically kill a template's worth of any infantry short of TEQ the turn it comes on, almost anywhere on the board.

The changes mean:
-it won't put a big dent in the unit it Vectors
-its targets after the first can reasonably get out of the way
-it is now even harder to kill
-Open Topped expose their contents

Definitely a nerf, but still rough for some lists.

It is still worth bringing 1 or 2 of them. The reasons being;
1) you can flame valuable units in buildings and open topped transports
2) the vector strike is still some of the best AA CSM (d3 AP2 hits is pretty good) has and is still useful for helping to take out transports.
3) Heldrakes got way more durable as with the changes to explodes they will get to IWND a lot more and they will get to take a 5+ invulnerable more against RoF HP stripping
4) they can get grimoired and have curse earth increase their invulnerable saves
5) skyfire now snap shots against ground targets even with intercerptor

So what we have is a tougher vehicle that is limited in it's maneuvering now. With all the changes that have happened the heldrake is still the premiere CSM AA unit and the baleflamer actually gained an entire new target range of open topped vehicle occupants. It is still a good unit it is just not ridiculously under priced like it has been.

The vehicle damage table also hurt flyers just as much if not more than it did help them. Oh sure, you need at least an AP2 weapon to out right cause an explodes result, but being immobilized is now terrifying for anything that's a flyer.

Lets say you take a penetrating hit from something that ISN'T ap1 or ap2. You fail your 5++ (As it most likely will) You then have your opponent roll a 6 for his Damage Table, and you roll a 1-2. Goodbye flyer. Full hull points, first turn on the board, crash and burned.

So going from 6+ explodes, bye flyer.

to

6+ followed by a 1-2, bye flyer was a nerf?

Why can't you shoot rear armor?

The gun is no longer treated as a turret, as that was removed from the FAQ. It's back to being a 45 degree arc, rather than 360. So you would have to fly up right behind the enemies flyer and line it up just right, which isn't a common situation.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Drake itself is boned on multiple accounts

For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules).

That is the lamest excuse to not bring a vehicle ever. Stating a model cannot draw line of sight because of the way its constructed is the dumbest claim ever. People tried that with numerous models that "dont have eyes" and it got shot down every time. Its not a hull mounted gun, so it can pivot even if its modeled fixed.

Helldrakes are still strong, theyre just not auto-win broken for the cost like they were. My friend used them before the turret-FAQ to great success, all that faq did is make him not even have to think about how to use it. Welcome to every other flier's life of having to "aim" the vehicle.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Drake itself is boned on multiple accounts

For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules).

That is the lamest excuse to not bring a vehicle ever. Stating a model cannot draw line of sight because of the way its constructed is the dumbest claim ever. People tried that with numerous models that "dont have eyes" and it got shot down every time. Its not a hull mounted gun, so it can pivot even if its modeled fixed.

Helldrakes are still strong, theyre just not auto-win broken for the cost like they were. My friend used them before the turret-FAQ to great success, all that faq did is make him not even have to think about how to use it. Welcome to every other flier's life of having to "aim" the vehicle.

Take it as you will. But RAW It's correct. Lame or not RAI or not, RAW it's impossible to draw Direct LOS from the models "Barrel" not to mention the actual problems with the Drake being slanted to the point you wonder genetic purity, and inbreeding, due to the neck curving the model is never straight anyways. So technically you could even get away with Flying the dumb thing around and away from the actual models you'd like to fire at and the stupid thing can actually SEE the models it wants JUST BECAUSE the position of the neck pulls to the left of the model. If you fly by the right of the models you'd wish to Shoot at, you'd bypass the whole shibang.

GoliothOnline wrote:

Take it as you will. But RAW It's correct. Lame or not RAI or not, RAW it's impossible to draw Direct LOS from the models "Barrel" not to mention the actual problems with the Drake being slanted to the point you wonder genetic purity, and inbreeding, due to the neck curving the model is never straight anyways. So technically you could even get away with Flying the dumb thing around and away from the actual models you'd like to fire at and the stupid thing can actually SEE the models it wants JUST BECAUSE the position of the neck pulls to the left of the model. If you fly by the right of the models you'd wish to Shoot at, you'd bypass the whole shibang.

This is a non-issue. 99% of players are not donkey-caves.

Where's this LOS problem come from?

Ok, it's arguably limited in how much it can fire 'up' RAW, but it's 6-7" above the table already.

 azreal13 wrote:






Where's this LOS problem come from?

Ok, it's arguably limited in how much it can fire 'up' RAW, but it's 6-7" above the table already.

When in doubt, why argue. Just supply a GW picture to prove your point.


Exalted and Quoted for effect.

Ontop of that. It is very reasonable to assume the drakes 'Pivot Point' is at the base of the head. Like most heads, it has a range of motion and movement, such as shaking your head in disgust at unreasonable rules-lawyers.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Drake itself is boned on multiple accounts

For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules)

The Hades Autocannon also bloody sucks for the simple reason that you can't shoot enemy flyers at rear armor now (Which was the main reason for even considering the Hades Autocannon over the Baleflamer) Now that you cannot do so, there is never a reason to take the gun, ever.

Our Vector Strike got nerfed against ground units in junction with our ability to pop Transports then subsequently burn the little buggers who survive, so again, the drake is boned.

I'm no longer fielding them. They're on the shelf. I'll be taking Forge World models like Hell Talons and Hell Blades from now on. At least they're cheaper and have their functionality maintained throughout the past year and a bit.

So the helldrakes not a noob cannon any more. Not a big deal. Now instead of being OP you actually have to plan ahead, move strategically etc. Not really a big deal.
I for one am glad that they changed the rules so its less broke. It was so dirty before that i refused to play it. Now i have one on my work bench.

The flamer is still the go to for me. Str 6 AP 3 soulblaze is still great for removing marines by the handful. Most players play marines thus making the flamer template the weapon of choice.

Heh, I just ordered one too!

Nice Azreal13
Good to see i wasnt the only one who held out on being part of the dairy fest!

 sennacherib wrote:
Nice Azreal13
Good to see i wasnt the only one who held out on being part of the dairy fest!

What's more cheese?

The fact Heldrakes were "Decent" back with the turret mounted weapon, or the fact 3 tides is still a thing that hasn't gotten ANY fixing or FAQ to the BEST monstrous creature in the game. Never mind the simple fact it has absurd firing capabilities, is prominent in EVERY Tau list and tournament taking the top 5 spots, but also has the best survivability of any MC out there for it's under costed value? I don't know why you seemed to think it was so potent when you could simply take skyfire and blow them out of the sky like everyone already did...

The increase in durability for heldrakes does not in any way make up for their loss of damage potential.
As others have said:

Loss of turret makes the bale flamer much more difficult to use. Fast armies like bikes have much less to fear now.
Loss of turret also makes hades totally useless. Before it was viable for vector striking over targets and then hitting their rear armour if they survive.
Both of the above weapons can no longer vector strike and then shoot the same target. (No more popping a transport and then flaming the insides).
Vector strike nerf is a straight damage reduction vs most targets.

The heldrake didn't need any more durability. 12 AV and a 5++ save regating the need to jink, + IWND, already make it a tough nut to crack. Losing its damage potential however harms its competitiveness greatly.
Consider a landraiders for a comparison. Whilst very hard to kill, many armies are able to ignore them (at least more so before they were scoring) as they simply do not do enough damage for their points cost.
The heldrake seems to have inherited the same problem, though to a lesser degree.

With good movement planning the heldrake will still be able to cause a lot of damage on the right targets, and CSM players are still likely to bring 1 or 2, as they have few other good choices, however it is certain that we will see a reduction in the number of drakes on the table, particularly as allies, as they are no longer the big cheese they once were.

GoliothOnline wrote:
What's more cheese?

The fact Heldrakes were "Decent" back with the turret mounted weapon, or the fact 3 tides is still a thing that hasn't gotten ANY fixing or FAQ to the BEST monstrous creature in the game. Never mind the simple fact it has absurd firing capabilities, is prominent in EVERY Tau list and tournament taking the top 5 spots, but also has the best survivability of any MC out there for it's under costed value? I don't know why you seemed to think it was so potent when you could simply take skyfire and blow them out of the sky like everyone already did...

Actually, they did get nerfed hard, just indirectly. Buffmanders can't join Tides anymore. A Riptide without ignore cover and TL is just decent.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Nice Azreal13
Good to see i wasnt the only one who held out on being part of the dairy fest!

What's more cheese?

The fact Heldrakes were "Decent" back with the turret mounted weapon, or the fact 3 tides is still a thing that hasn't gotten ANY fixing or FAQ to the BEST monstrous creature in the game. Never mind the simple fact it has absurd firing capabilities, is prominent in EVERY Tau list and tournament taking the top 5 spots, but also has the best survivability of any MC out there for it's under costed value? I don't know why you seemed to think it was so potent when you could simply take skyfire and blow them out of the sky like everyone already did...

"Heldrakes were fine cause Riptides" isn't exactly a strong nor relevant argument.

You're right in that, in the singular, they weren't too bad, but they weren't a 0-1 choice, they were available to CSM players in multiples, more so in 7th, and weren't exactly a lot of points for what you got.

Riptides are a flawed unit, in that they were costed badly, but if you want to discuss that further I suggest you start another thread entitled "Riptide 7th Edition" because this thread is about Heldrakes, and justifying one badly designed unit by the existence of another isn't going to hold a lot of water, it is just a shame they fixed one and didn't (yet) fix the other.

Sold my three. Ran 2 baleflamers and 1 hades. As mentioned the Hades is near worthless. Vector strike nerf was not as bad as the hull mounted weapon. Trying to actually move and flame something 12 inches away and directly in front of you isn't so easy. Other fliers have much longer ranged weapons and most are twin linked.

Sure they can fly out and flame a unit. They just made them do less potential damage over the game. Most units can outmaneuver the heldrake now.

The crying chaos players are really awesome!

Helldrake was one the most broken units in the game (along with wave serpent, riptide and so on...). Now, it is still very, i mean VERY good, because he also get a nice buff. Look to the vehicle dammage chart and tell me, how will a player kill a helldrake? Most probably by HP striping. Its IWND rule is now so much better than before. Also, skyfire weapons, which were much used by so many armies (quad, icarus) are probably gone now thanks to the change of interceptor rules.

And even with the new limited firearc, the drake can STILL hit whatever he wants on the table. Its just not a WIN button against some types of armies...

All nerfs and buffs counted, this unit is still the best in the CHM codex and still one of the best units in the game.

 Lothar wrote:
The crying chaos players are really awesome!

Helldrake was one the most broken units in the game (along with wave serpent, riptide and so on...). Now, it is still very, i mean VERY good, because he also get a nice buff. Look to the vehicle dammage chart and tell me, how will a player kill a helldrake? Most probably by HP striping. Its IWND rule is now so much better than before. Also, skyfire weapons, which were much used by so many armies (quad, icarus) are probably gone now thanks to the change of interceptor rules.

And even with the new limited firearc, the drake can STILL hit whatever he wants on the table. Its just not a WIN button against some types of armies...

All nerfs and buffs counted, this unit is still the best in the CHM codex and still one of the best units in the game.

Yeah, its may still the best unit in the CSM codex.

But this also says something about the codex itself.

Really? You have a frikkin flamer you can orient any direction you want except back towards the drake itself. Your guns are just as effective as those on every other flyer out there and you still get IWND. Its still a better, tougher, flyer than most flyers out there but now you have their negative too, the whole part about having to think about how to use it as it flies over the board. Quit complaining about it and simply learn how to use flyers like the rest of us did when 6th came out.

Its just a flamer template, its for taking out infantry and probably only 4 at a time if your opponent has a clue. You can flame whoever you want on the first turn, after that its quite easy to just move out of the way. It costs enough points that it needs to kill multiple squads to be worth taking. A single heldrake was never broken, taking multiples was. Now a single drake is mediocre, and multiples aren't hurt as much. This is because multiples can work together to not allow your opponent to outmaneuver them. A single drake may get to kill 4 models twice a game. Not really worth it. Heldrake hate is unwarranted and just a meme at this point, much like flying BA landraiders and Matt Ward codices.

Its further RAW unusable now if you consider the 45 degree vertical limit. That only allows 22.5 deg up and 22.5 degree down from its modeled line of fire. The model does point it slightly down but following the hull mounted rules and measure out the arc you cannot legally place the small end of the template within 12" of the base because nowhere in the firing arc is within 12" of the base.

I only have one Heldrake, and didn't have a chance to use it when it was cheese. I still want to use it, but hoping its not as bad as some have said. I am still looking forward to using it and seeing how it fairs now. I'm glad to see multiple points of views here.

Did all of the anti-Heldrake people forget "EXPLODE" is still a thing? Yeah, we get the same invuln save all our daemons do and IWND is great if the Heldrake survives a round of "OMG KILL EET!" from loyalists and Tau, but you can still shoot the damn thing out of the air with a well placed Lazcannon shot and since Loyalist fliers seem to have two TL Lazcannons at their disposal, plus another two batteries of wtf to shoot, they've got a good shot of bypassing all of the Heldrakes defenses before it can make its points back with the Baleflamer.

So this stupid argument that "Chaos should stop crying" can stop coming from non-Chaos players. EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE, for utility purposes and army synchronicity, is better than the Heldrake PERIOD. The only reason you clowns are so afraid of the Iron Dragon in the first place is because it killed your precious infantry the way Tau kill infantry in turn 1.

The Heldrake is a solo-act, even when flying with other Heldrakes. It's a harasser and a support flier. It's not transporting troops with deadly accuracy and it's not putting 6+ hits onto whatever it wants all the time, either.

As I've said earlier, anyone want to argue the finer points of the Heldrake, I'd like to see some emperical evidence besides the collective sigh of relief when someone pulls a stick out of someone elses rear armor. As it has been mentioned again and again, Chaos had exactly ONE good unit to combat the overly good codex's and units we're up agianst which include Riptides, Buffmanders, Wraithknights, etc. Sorry ya'll were getting cold sweats over the dragon, but that's all we bloody got! DEAL WITH IT THE SAME WAY YOU ARE DEMANDING WE DEAL WITH THIS CHANGE AND MAYBE THE RESPECT WILL LAST LONGER.

Fact of the matter is, perhaps the loyalists+ should've been more creative with the greater armory they have instead of demanding that Chaos stay under its boot heels by nerfing every decent thing we get, and that includes FMC's as well. Tell me something...what big hit did the Space Marines take again? I heard something about Vendetta's. Do ya'll have hull mounted weapons now too? Did they take away your hover? Maybe your assault marines cost an arm and a leg now? Did they take away your ability to barrage with Thunderfire cannons because we have no barrage period. And no sky fire. No monster hunters. No scouts, no infiltraters, no snipers.

Oh, but at least we got our Heldrakes neck broke. Nub.

 Solomongrundy wrote:
I only have one Heldrake, and didn't have a chance to use it when it was cheese. I still want to use it, but hoping its not as bad as some have said. I am still looking forward to using it and seeing how it fairs now. I'm glad to see multiple points of views here.

Lol, Drake is not bad at all! This is all just a nerdrage from players feeling butthurt...helldrake really was one of the most OP things in wh40k and it really needed to be toned down. After this, there is hope that other OP units will also one day be more balanced. Hope its soon, since the game is anything but balanced in its current state.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.

Not to mention that Helldrake was better than "EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE" (quoting you).

 Lothar wrote:

TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.

So actually use your models to shut it down. The game isn't all just pew pew. As a guard player (judging by your avatar) you should be the least worried about it. Do you really care about 4 guardsmen a turn? Furthermore guard has so much board control you can really keep it from doing much of anything.