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Very interesting. I'll make sure to keep informed.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
*yawn* generic space fantasy miniatures game. Don't get me wrong, it looks cool and it sounds like it might have an interesting backstory, but at this point it just seems like a re-hash of some very common industry tropes, and very much targeted at capturing the flavor and appeal of a certain other game (my guess is the one that you previously bashed in your original post) and trying to basically piggy back off of them and their dissatisfied customer base. While I don't fault you for it, I will say that at this point you're going to have to try harder to get my money, and I think the same goes for many others. You're entering a very crowded marketplace right now, I don't think competition has ever been more intense either, and money is a very finite resource (for most of us).

Of this I have no doubt at all. We're not asking you to throw your money blindly at yet another generic space-fantasy miniatures game, we're not expecting to immediately convert fanatical devotees with our initial announcement. We think we can distinguish ourselves through well-crafted rules updated frequently to account for errors, subverting and messing with common industry tropes (e.g. if we were to include space elves, would our space elves have to behave exactly like everyone else's space elves?), and low-cost miniatures to keep the barrier to entry small; I understand and respect your skepticism, which is why we're planning on allowing players to look through all the rules without needing to commit any money.

I'm not even a fanatical devotee, quite the contrary I'm pretty much done with games workshop and am in the process of divesting myself of the majority of my GW minis. As for subverting the common tropes, I would argue that if your space elves don't behave like other space elves, then they aren't really space elves.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Mathieu we're unsure who Tony Reidy is but we support his assertions entirely.

You *might* want to rethink that statement ;( or at least do some research first...

 Vermonter wrote:
I don't intend any offense, but you are promising quite a lot when you state you want to produce your line in hard plastic, for which start up costs are high, and to sell the figures at a very low cost. Particularly since, so far as I am aware, you haven't published a miniature war game before, and your company appears to be a young start-up.

None of which means that you aren't genuine or can't pull it off - everyone has to start somewhere, and there aren't any leaders in the market today who didn't go through their "dreaming big in a small apartment while living on ramen and peanut butter" phase first. But do you already have arrangements with a factory to produce these plastic miniatures, and if so, do you have any examples of other work they've done to give you confidence in their ability to do quality casting? Do you have realistic estimations of the actual production costs of what you're attempting? How much logistical preparation and research has gone into this enterprise so far, and how many production practicalities are being left unaddressed, to be worked out after you're funded?

To be blunt, why should I invest in your KS campaign and trust you to deliver what you promise?

Pretty much this, mind if I ask what work have you done so far in terms of production related stuff? Have you gone out for quote? Have you done file review at all? Just because you have a guy who can make 3d models/stl files (or whatever format it is your manufacturer prefers to work with) doesn't mean you can actually *use* those models, its a common mistake when people try to get their 3d models converted to injection molded plastics. Unless you have industry experience, the typical result is you have to then pay an experienced professional to modify the files for production, which adds time, cost, and compromised designs, and upset customers.

Hey guys,

I want to thank you all for your interest in War Prime. At the moment we are hard at work getting the rules cleaned up and sent out to play test groups. You are welcome to signup to be a play tester and when we open up more slots we will get you a copy of the game you can share with your group.

I want to apologize in advance. Normally I am all about full transparency, but to reveal my manufacturing company at this point would put my deal at risk. Other companies may approach them causing my costs to increase. I can say the company is a toy manufacturer.

After 20 years in the video game industry I have accumulated a long list of friends and contacts who have made building this project a lot easier than it would be for anyone starting fresh. I have a small team of talented artists. I had them build standard 3D Models in ZBRUSH. Those models are then run through a special program that understands the constraints of mold making.

These prototypes allowed me to see the scale of the miniatures and the detail areas so that I can make appropriate adjustments before doing a full manufacture run. As long as I had the miniatures in hand, I decided I would paint them. This further identified potential problems with the final model allowing me to make additional small changes before manufacturing.

As for Tony Reidy. I don't know him and he has nothing to do with this project. Because we don't know him we cannot support anything he does or has done in the past.

As long as we are being blunt. Kick-starting a project is not like buying an existing product from a store shelf. It's an investment in an idea. And investments are risky. I can tell you everything you want to hear and spin it all so it sounds good, but as we have seen in the past, even big name companies and personalities cannot guaranty success. I believe that I can convince you that what I am doing will succeed, but at the end of the day if you don't believe in the project or what I am telling you, then you should not fund it.

I will say that I am a big supporter of Kickstater and have backed almost 40 projects. I believe in helping the underdogs win against the big guys. I believe in being open and transparent (to the point of not damaging my company's deals that are still in development). And I believe in building great games.

I thank you for your time and interest. Now its time for me to get back to work so we can launch when I want to.

You can see my Kickstarter profile here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/ericsexton

You can follow us on Facebook here:
https://www.facebook.com/Kingmakergames

You can find our latest newsletter here:
http://eepurl.com/VXtE5

 WarPrime wrote:
Those models are then run through a special program that understands the constraints of mold making.

These prototypes allowed me to see the scale of the miniatures and the detail areas so that I can make appropriate adjustments before doing a full manufacture run. As long as I had the miniatures in hand, I decided I would paint them. This further identified potential problems with the final model allowing me to make additional small changes before manufacturing.

No amount of software will substitute for having your manufacturer review the files, every manufacturer has a different set of capabilities, tolerances, etc. and just because your software tells you that something is possible doesn't mean that the guys you're working with will have the proper machinery and equipment to do so. Fair warning, I've seen people make 3d models with the intent of having them produced, and technically speaking everything they did was 'correct', however the manufacturer/mold engineer wasn't able to make it work based on the equipment he had access to, which required a significant amount of re-modeling and adjustments to get the model into a state that they could work with without severely impacting quality.

 WarPrime wrote:

As for Tony Reidy. I don't know him and he has nothing to do with this project. Because we don't know him we cannot support anything he does or has done in the past.

That's all I needed. This in print. And your third sentence is perfect.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 WarPrime wrote:
Those models are then run through a special program that understands the constraints of mold making.

These prototypes allowed me to see the scale of the miniatures and the detail areas so that I can make appropriate adjustments before doing a full manufacture run. As long as I had the miniatures in hand, I decided I would paint them. This further identified potential problems with the final model allowing me to make additional small changes before manufacturing.

No amount of software will substitute for having your manufacturer review the files, every manufacturer has a different set of capabilities, tolerances, etc. and just because your software tells you that something is possible doesn't mean that the guys you're working with will have the proper machinery and equipment to do so. Fair warning, I've seen people make 3d models with the intent of having them produced, and technically speaking everything they did was 'correct', however the manufacturer/mold engineer wasn't able to make it work based on the equipment he had access to, which required a significant amount of re-modeling and adjustments to get the model into a state that they could work with without severely impacting quality.

You are correct. That is why I am working with a modeler who is familiar with the manufacturing process including the process to create molds on sprues. He has also made miniatures for other recently successful Kickstarters. I am working with a manufacturing company that specializes in making toys. The manufacture has a quality control process that starts with the 3D model to make sure it works with their equipment. Additional quality control during the manufacturing stage. And a final quality control stage that reviews the work when it's done.

Polystyrene, PVC, or ABS?

 WarPrime wrote:
As long as we are being blunt. Kick-starting a project is not like buying an existing product from a store shelf. It's an investment in an idea. And investments are risky.

Perhaps working with a toy company has skewed your perspective on the age range of your target demographic? Unlike children, investors hedge their bets by getting all the information they can about a project before committing money to it. As investments, all kickstarter projects carry some risk, but they aren't all equally risky. I have never invested in a kickstarter without asking creators questions first and checking whatever track record they have, and I have yet to be disappointed. It is because I approach each kickstarter as a potential investment, not because I confuse them with preorders, that I bothered to inquire about your project at all.

If you present yourself here as a representative of this project, it is entirely reasonable, not inherently hostile, to ask you about it and weigh your responses. If that grates on you because you have more important things to attend to, or customer relations isn't your wheelhouse, etc., no problem. I can relate; we seem to be equally "blunt," and to be honest, I prefer that in people. But particularly after the KS launches, you will need to have someone on your team who is willing to field backer questions and has the time and patience to do so. If you don't, it will cost you.

 WarPrime wrote:
I can tell you everything you want to hear and spin it all so it sounds good, but as we have seen in the past, even big name companies and personalities cannot guaranty success. I believe that I can convince you that what I am doing will succeed, but at the end of the day if you don't believe in the project or what I am telling you, then you should not fund it.

All true, but all self-evident, right? Being self-aware that KS presentation and communication is a social meta-game is fine, but it doesn't mean that you don't have to play that game, or that you can't play it honestly. How you play it, and how much your "spin" rings true to your audience, will affect how much trust you receive.

You are correct that all of my questions, regardless of how annoying they may be, are based on interest in your project. That is fundamentally a good sign.

I am Eric Sexton. Owner and the Creative Director of Kingmaker Games.

I don't mind healthy discussion and I certainly don't mind hard questions. If I came off as irritated that was not my intent. I have a company to run, and game to design, a Kickstarter to organize, social media to muster, a team to lead, and a wife that I love (read: don't want to lose). So needless to say, my time is going to be stretched a little thin for the next few weeks.

I like triple checking my writing to make sure that there is nothing that can be misconstrued or twisted into something it's not. I can see how this may make my writing come off as stiff, curt, or stern. I normally write the way I talk....lots of ellipsis, misused commas, an overabundance of spelling errors, and incorrectly Capitalized Words. For this reason I am hyper vigilant when it comes to talking in an open forum.

My only concern with answering direct questions is that we don't have 100% of our deals finalized. Wile we have a good idea of what we want and who we want to work with, it can always change. Unforeseen events may cause us to change some of our original plans and partners. Telling you "We are doing X" only to find out 2 weeks from now we are doing "Y" makes us look like liars or worse incompetent.

By toy manufacture I mean a company that is familiar with creating plastic models. Not children's toys.

I hate playing games with people's expectations. I have seen to much of that crap in the video game industry. Flat out lying to inflate everyones expectation knowing that a certain percentage of people wont do follow up investigation to make sure it's on the level. I have too much self-respect to be deceptive like that. I believe that I have a cool enough idea that ,if I present it in a reasonably articulate way, it will provide the right information without being disingenuous.

Looks like there's some cool concepts here, and more alternative rulesets and models is always a good thing. I'm a strong believer in cross-compatible games and models, so free rules and a range of sci-fi minis means I'll be keeping an eye on this.

I assume this will get a retail release at some point in the future as well? I don't generally back kickstarters.

I'm signed up & just waiting for the cost details.

Being proprietary about the manufacturer? Fair enough.

Not a great way to elevate the industry though. Secrets don't last forever anyways, and if you don't have a decent enough relationship to trust a company that is able to expand into a new market on your referrals then either that says something about the way you do business or the way they do business, neither of which is inspiring.

You might as well say that you've got a decent deal in theory, but you can't guarantee it'll work out because your production partner might crawfish on you.

And I guess you might also say that your KS margins will be good (assuming the manufacturer doesn't up the price in the next six months) but your COGS will inevitably inflate with subsequent production runs.

You really need to work on your miniature photography.

The models look good but the guns look under detailed by comparison. It would probably be worthwhile to sharpen then up to match.

weeble1000 wrote:
Being proprietary about the manufacturer? Fair enough.

Not a great way to elevate the industry though. Secrets don't last forever anyways, and if you don't have a decent enough relationship to trust a company that is able to expand into a new market on your referrals then either that says something about the way you do business or the way they do business, neither of which is inspiring.

You might as well say that you've got a decent deal in theory, but you can't guarantee it'll work out because your production partner might crawfish on you.

Have you never heard of people keeping quiet about deals until the ink is dry on the contract? It's presumably a fairly new relationship - that's the point. You don't go plastering that all over town unless you're some kind of idiot.

 Bull0 wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Being proprietary about the manufacturer? Fair enough.

Not a great way to elevate the industry though. Secrets don't last forever anyways, and if you don't have a decent enough relationship to trust a company that is able to expand into a new market on your referrals then either that says something about the way you do business or the way they do business, neither of which is inspiring.

You might as well say that you've got a decent deal in theory, but you can't guarantee it'll work out because your production partner might crawfish on you.

Have you never heard of people keeping quiet about deals until the ink is dry on the contract? It's presumably a fairly new relationship - that's the point. You don't go plastering that all over town unless you're some kind of idiot.

If you need to rely on a contract in a business relationship, you have no trust. Not having a contract is silly. Relying entirely on a contract to define the extent of your relationship is unhealthy.

If you don't trust your manufacturer enough to rely on a quote within a time-frame of several months because you are afraid the manufacturer will increase the price quoted because you drove new business to the manufacturer... That's not a relationship I would want to be in regardless of the rates.

'Hey, I know I said I would do this for X, but you know, ever since you told folks that I had this capacity, business is totes booming. So...we're gonna have to re-negotiate that price if you want a production time-slot. You know how it is...It's like...out of my hands...business is business and all...and we never actually signed a contract.'

It makes some sense to keep things close to the chest when a supplier's services are not scalable. Even then, it doesn't make the relationship healthy to treat the good service you are getting from a supplier or contractor a secret.

In a retail product, what the Hell do I care whether your manufacturer is taking you for a ride? The finished product is offered to me at a certain price. In a Kickstarter it matters a great deal more because those relationships determine whether I get the reward I am supposed to get.

If you invest in a company, do you not want to know what suppliers that company intends to use?

I like what I see, would love to see more flesh to your background

Will keep a track of this

Weeble1000, given that the thread started with a jab at people's buying expensive rulebooks that got later edited out, I'm guessing the WarPrime poster might not be the most skilled at knowing what not to say.

There was just no reason to mention that contracts are still being worked on or that they're worried about losing their spot in the production que if other people find out about their super secret manufacturer. There's no upside to that whatsoever. It can't help anything and only makes things look shakey like things haven't been figured out yet.

Saying nothing would have been better. And even better than that would have been to do the homework in advance to know what the different material costs and procedures actually are.

Heck, a better response to a question about miniature materials would be ask what the person would like and say that they'll figure it out before the Kickstarter launches. There's just no need to talk about secret manufacturers you may or may not end up working with yet.

As for the actual content shown so far, I'm indifferent. It might be that the paint job isn't doing the sculpt justice or that the 3d print that's being painted wasn't good enough resolution. Or an issue with photography, but I don't think the painted miniatures are looking like anything I'd expect in 2014.

The renders and overall design are alright. I like the art more than the grey renders.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Weeble1000, given that the thread started with a jab at people's buying expensive rulebooks that got later edited out, I'm guessing the WarPrime poster might not be the most skilled at knowing what not to say.

There was just no reason to mention that contracts are still being worked on or that they're worried about losing their spot in the production que if other people find out about their super secret manufacturer. There's no upside to that whatsoever. It can't help anything and only makes things look shakey like things haven't been figured out yet.

Saying nothing would have been better. And even better than that would have been to do the homework in advance to know what the different material costs and procedures actually are.

Heck, a better response to a question about miniature materials would be ask what the person would like and say that they'll figure it out before the Kickstarter launches. There's just no need to talk about secret manufacturers you may or may not end up working with yet.

As for the actual content shown so far, I'm indifferent. It might be that the paint job isn't doing the sculpt justice or that the 3d print that's being painted wasn't good enough resolution. Or an issue with photography, but I don't think the painted miniatures are looking like anything I'd expect in 2014.

The renders and overall design are alright. I like the art more than the grey renders.

Yes. I very much agree.

 frozenwastes wrote:

As for the actual content shown so far, I'm indifferent. It might be that the paint job isn't doing the sculpt justice or that the 3d print that's being painted wasn't good enough resolution. Or an issue with photography, but I don't think the painted miniatures are looking like anything I'd expect in 2014.

The renders and overall design are alright. I like the art more than the grey renders.

That's pretty much how I feel. That 3D print is hopefully the issue and they need to do some corrective work on it and do a quick and cheap resin cast so we can all have a better idea of what it will look like in production. That said, plenty of miniatures Kickstarters have made a killing recently on a smile and a song so I don't think this will stop people from throwing money at it. I've been burned with restic so final material matters a great deal when I decide to purchase or back. That said, Mantic have shown that they have the ability to screw up hard plastic (hello men at arms that went immediately into the trash) so there's no guaranteed safety in material either.

WarPrime wrote:By toy manufacture I mean a company that is familiar with creating plastic models.

Cyporiean wrote:Polystyrene, PVC, or ABS?

 Cyporiean wrote:

WarPrime wrote:By toy manufacture I mean a company that is familiar with creating plastic models.

Cyporiean wrote:Polystyrene, PVC, or ABS?

Yes, this. At this point of the discussion with the vendor there should at least be some clarity as to whether final material will be one of the styrenes or PVC.

I for one will buy nothing made of PVC ever again, from any manufacturer for any product line.

 Cyporiean wrote:

WarPrime wrote:By toy manufacture I mean a company that is familiar with creating plastic models.

Cyporiean wrote:Polystyrene, PVC, or ABS?

I second this question.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

WarPrime wrote:By toy manufacture I mean a company that is familiar with creating plastic models.

Cyporiean wrote:Polystyrene, PVC, or ABS?

I second this question.

Thirded to infinity.

Also, hire yourselves a professional miniature painting studio. You're gonna need good paintjobs and good photographs to get interest going.

~Tim?

Thank you Tim. We will get professional painters and photography as soon as we can.

Miniature details coming in our next newsletter. Feel free to sign up.

 WarPrime wrote:
I am Eric Sexton. Owner and the Creative Director of Kingmaker Games.

I don't mind healthy discussion and I certainly don't mind hard questions.

Alright, Mr. Sexton. For this, and particularly for your honest distaste for hype (which I share even though it really hasn't done me much good financially), you have a new newsletter subscriber. Your kickstarter is now on my radar. Good luck with this.

 WarPrime wrote:
I am Eric Sexton. Owner and the Creative Director of Kingmaker Games.

Hi Eric,
Is this your profile?
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,11646/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Sexton

(Nothing bad, just confirming that you're one and the same.)

I'd suggest that you hire a professional painted to paint some of those 3-d prints. They don't need to be Golden Demon winners, but the tabletop level paint jobs on the figures you guys have shown does you no favours, and obscures some of the details on the prints.

To be frank, it still seems like this game is trying too hard to follow in the footsteps of GW and 40K, and hoping to pickup more people by going that route.

Just one look at the artwork shown and you can see stand ins for space marines, complete with ridiculous shoulder pads and roman-like insignia, a giant dreadnought stand in, etc.

Which really surprises me to see since these guys are all people working in the video game industry. Across the VG industry are strewn the corpses of games and studios that tried to copy the success of the big dominant games, like World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, only to find that people aren't looking for more of the same when they already have the original.

Thinking you can make the next 40K of miniature games is like thinking you can make the next WoW. It's not going to happen, and a small startup, no matter how talented, is not going to be able to pull away players from the behemoths that currently dominate.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Thinking you can make the next 40K of miniature games is like thinking you can make the next WoW. It's not going to happen, and a small startup, no matter how talented, is not going to be able to pull away players from the behemoths that currently dominate.

Not necessarily. If the rules are tighter, and the minis more affordable, I for one would be interested.

I think it's best if something other than "better rules and cheaper" is the main selling point. WarPrime should find some additional niche or selling point that makes it viable to more than just people who want a 40k-like but want to pay less. For example, rather than develop Warpath further, Mantic made a grid based board game like skirmish game with Deadzone. They may now go back and develop Warpath further, but finding the niche with Deadzone first was a real good move ("may PVC be cursed forever" aside).