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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/16 18:30:36
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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weetyskemian44 wrote: Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
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Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/16 18:38:45
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Sslimey Sslyth
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weeble1000 wrote: weetyskemian44 wrote: Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
Pumpkins.....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/16 21:10:13
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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Saldiven wrote:weeble1000 wrote: weetyskemian44 wrote: Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
Pumpkins.....
Never had a problem with a pumpkin. Other than guts gettin under my fingernails. Perhaps everyone just needs a sharper knife, or better hand-eye coordination?
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/16 21:20:02
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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Blaming the victim, Sinful Hero?
Restic-induced wounds, at least, I blame on the subpar material, not the user... I really can't speak to vegetables, though
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/17 02:15:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 03:23:09
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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RiTides wrote:Blaming the victim, Sinful Hero?
Restic-induced wounds, at least, I blame on the subpar material, not the user... I really can't speak to vegetables, though
This IS dakkadakka right? When don't we blame the victim?
Also, at least my(and my buddies) copy of Relic Knights looks good. Only two models with "No-Face" from everything Noh, Black Diamond, and Cerci plus Prismatics and the Void Angel. Mold lines aren't bad at all from what I've seen. One or two run in an elbow, but nothing deal-breaking.
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 03:46:21
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Brutal Black Orc
The Empire State
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how well do they clean up?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 03:52:26
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Hellish Haemonculus
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Restic is the same as PVC?
Are Dreamblade minis restic? I've heard them called PVC before...
and good lord I'm addicted to them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 05:06:34
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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The Hammer of Witches
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I think some of these aren't as bad as others - like I said I found deadzone bearable, but I would have to draw the line at a badly slipped cast as there's nothing you can really do to save it. Send it back!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 05:07:13
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Stubborn Hammerer
$1,000,000 and a 50% discount
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And lo I sit and prepare for my own impending doom. For the floodgates will soon open, and a tide of Wrath of Kings dual-restic shall wash over the near-sighted fool who dreamed that perhaps CMoN could deliver me redemption by Restic. I shall flagellate my hands in anticipation, but fear it shall be nothing compared to the penance one will have to pay for one's folly!
Let us recite our pledge:
Fealty with metal, valor with plastic, disloyalty with restic.
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just hangin' out, hangin' out |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 05:31:24
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Brutal Black Orc
The Empire State
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I know what going to happen.
I think WoK will be the one to prove me wrong.
But in doing so, I will end up disappointed.
So the only solution is to be disappointed beforehand to reverse the jinx. That's how it works,
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/17 05:31:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 08:53:24
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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My brothers help me, for I fear that the Restic is manipulating my mind to make me buy more.
Just this day gone I found myself considering the purchase of the Slayer and Corruptor Helljack boxes, and a box of Nightwretches to accompany them. Where this but all that I had felt it would be nothing for my Cryx do need expanding.
Alas though, I now feel the urge to invest in Malifaux and Kings of War miniatures.
Worse still, I now dream such terrible dreams of mould lines, slippage and the terrible, terrible warping and sprue marks. They haunt my dreams and whisper their foul promises in my mind, telling me of the models and what they could be used for...
HARK
There they are now, the whispering shadows that creep around the edges of my vision and haunt my every hour.
Even as I type this I know that I am to be forfeit, for they are closing and even now I can feel prickling sensations in my thumb......
The light of the metal is fading and around me the restic shadows draw close.....
I fear I will soon b~
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 11:11:04
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Stitch Counter
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Piston Honda wrote:Lol at Mantic's Basileans.
Mantic had a golden opportunity to be the top dog of large scale fantasy wargames and blew it. Mantic Basileans are a prime example.
In many ways I find Mantic to be the exact mirror image of GW. With GW we (often) love the product and hate the company. WIth Mantic it is very hard to hate the company - it's like kicking a puppy! But man, their product.... pheeeew! I mean their hard plastic undead they got Renedra to do were lovely, but the KoW stuff they outsourced to China..... What a whiff!
And here I admit my addiction and bare my soul for the excoriation of the enlightened.
I admit it. I have far too much Mantic Restic for my own good. I got into the KoW starter with a huge Orc army. and even after palming off the fething awful gobboes on my youngest son (shameful, yes I know, but seriously what's a dad to do other than take advantage of the poorly developed aesthetic sense of one's junior offspring?) and two years of "meaning to get round to it" I've only got about 10% of the stuff painted, and I'm finding my ambitions for the large Orc army I wanted are being filled by my occasional foray into the realms of Oldhammer and dodgy 1980's "heritage" sculpting. It's not that I can't prep them well, or even that the sculpts (other than those gobboes....) are that bad. It is just the balance of fun to drudgery is off! Too much drudgery (prep) compared to not enough fun (painting). And boy, is there a lot of drugery in an Orc horde. But still, I get bored sticking hard plastic stuff together, basically doing anything other than painting = boring. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
And Bones. Bones. OK I did that too. And at least these are one-piece sculpts so no superglue hassles, and I had low expectations as I was just wanting a random box of el-cheapo crap for those times when I just needed a fantasy model. Like you do. And Cthulhu. Fhtagn!
Then Deadzone came about and I thought "hey. its a skirmish game so no big armies to paint, right?!" Fething wrong! Bloomin' kickstarter fever kicked in and I got loads of factions. Why? Beats me! But still, the terrain was great and the game is... ok... so.... And I did get all the models painted up for this one (after palming two factions off on my son and a friend.... there's a theme building here....)
And then I got click-happy on DBX. But at least these are one-piece sculpts so maybe the fun/drudgery balance will work out in my favour. And if not, there's still my son...
But now Deadzone 2nd wave is almost here. Why did I do it? I think the safest thing will be just to eBay it when it arrives without even opening the packet. That's it. I'm not sure my son will be able to take any more.
But I think I'm over it now. My backlog is too huge. I resisted the Mercs kickstarter and the Dust one is passing me by unclicked. Anything by Coolminiornot I now consider to be toxic. Mantic are rethinking their whole kickstarter strategy, so the lure of a bazillian models will not be there. For me, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it is in the shape of one-piece metal sculpts from traditional sources.
Breathe in that sweet, lead-laden air of freedom!
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/17 11:22:18
Cheers
Paul |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 11:28:28
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Wraith
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master of ordinance wrote:My brothers help me, for I fear that the Restic is manipulating my mind to make me buy more.
Just this day gone I found myself considering the purchase of the Slayer and Corruptor Helljack boxes, and a box of Nightwretches to accompany them. Where this but all that I had felt it would be nothing for my Cryx do need expanding.
...snip...
Fear not, dear brother. You shall not be alone wading through those masses of Privateer PVC. It appears the price we pay for the succinct rules is to suffer the inequities of Restic.
However, they have acknowledged the folly of the casts on their forums, though change, as with all necessary things, is slow.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 12:05:58
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Sslimey Sslyth
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Sinful Hero wrote:Saldiven wrote:weeble1000 wrote: weetyskemian44 wrote: Baragash wrote: If I can't handle cheese, I am a long way from being competent enough to take on restic. :(
^ Butternut squash always gets me. We need sharper knives, or tiny lasers.
Fething squash! Almost as bad as restic. And then it gets all sweaty and sticky where you've peeled it and you've got to hold that part to keep peeling it.
Pumpkins.....
Never had a problem with a pumpkin. Other than guts gettin under my fingernails. Perhaps everyone just needs a sharper knife, or better hand-eye coordination? 
If the temperature is too warm when you're carving, the flesh under the skin turns to slime, especially on larger pumpkins.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 12:28:28
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
Livingston, United Kingdom
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...yuck.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 13:26:34
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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No fuzzies from a file, and you can take a ln x-acto to them just fine. They are noticeably harder than GW plastic, but they're not impossible to clean.
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Black Bases and Grey Plastic Forever:My quaint little hobby blog.
40k- The Kumunga Swarm (more)
Count Mortimer’s Private Security Force/Excavation Team  (building)
Kabal of the Grieving Widow (less)
Plus other games- miniature and cardboard both. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 14:07:18
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Despite the rule 'crunchiness' I don't regret backing Myth at all. The minis are fantastic, and the gameplay, once you learn it, is one of the most fun group games I've ever played.
Anything by Coolminiornot I now consider to be toxic.
Personally, I think that's a mistake.
Rivet Wars proved that pretty well, and I think Wrath of Kings and Arcadia Quest (which looks beautiful) are only going to change that further.
And goodness, Ron & Bones is in the pipeline.
Can't wait.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 15:05:02
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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From that list, though, I consider Myth, Rivet Wars, and Arcadia Quest true board games with a lot of sculpts with exaggerated features. PVC works fine for those kinds of board game pieces, many of which will never need to be painted.
Wrath of Kings, much more of a wargame, will be the real test.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/17 15:06:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 15:46:46
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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RiTides wrote:From that list, though, I consider Myth, Rivet Wars, and Arcadia Quest true board games with a lot of sculpts with exaggerated features. PVC works fine for those kinds of board game pieces, many of which will never need to be painted.
Wrath of Kings, much more of a wargame, will be the real test.
Quit yucking my yum, oh lord of the Restic Knight Pantheon
I'll grant you Rivet and Arcadia (even if both look great!) but I think, while Myth is a board game, the minis are definitely "minis" even if they are pre assembled.
But yeah... I think Wrath is going to impress a lot of folks. I've been hands on with "most" of the plastics that have been completed and I was happy with what I saw.
Then again... I didn't mind the clean up or detail on the Sedition Wars minis and some of the Deadzone stuff (the Orks, mainly), so I'm probably a bit more forgiving than others.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 15:55:07
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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Alright, so I think I have an actually useful agenda item for us (beyond reminding each other not to buy more models we hate.) In a lot of Kickstarters and forum threads there is a great deal of confusion about what "restic", resin, PVC, hard PVC, hard plastic and HIPs actually mean. It would be nice to develop at least a cultural norm for using only specific words for these different materials such that we could eliminate confusion and publicly shame those companies who try to keep that confusion going. For example, the Drakyris KS which refers to its hard PVC as "hard plastic" is confusing, and perhaps not intentionally so, because people ask about hard plastic (which PVC is) when they really mean HIPS like GW and Wargames factor use. So, to educate ourselves, here are some relevant articles on the topic of the various types of plastics we see: Resin : The resin we think of when we think of high end boutique miniatures. Hand cast, hard to do in very large volume. Holds detail very well, and is easy to clean up. Also called Urethane Resin, or Epoxy Resin, which seem to be subsets. Urethane (poly or otherwise) are the normal sorts you see. Material properties can vary a good bit, with Ramshackle using a somewhat brittle resin that is stinky while other brands (and many home done models) use a less brittle and not so stinky resin. PVC (poly vinyl chloride) Same sort of stuff they use in making pipes. Privateer Press, Mantic and others use this material as it is much cheaper to make the molds compared to HIPS, but can be mass produced better compared to resin. Downsides are that it tends not to hold sharp detail well, and filing/cleaning is a pain due to the toughness of the material. Goes by the other names of "restic" and "plastic". Huge range of variability in the final product due to huge range of variability in material properties. HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) The kind of plastic used in modeling kits, GW and Wargames Factory models. Usually considered the gold standard for mass production, as details can be very fine and parts fitted together very cleanly, as well as being easy to clean up on the user's end. Plastic glue can be used instead of super glue to weld pieces together. Downsides on the producer's side is that the mold tooling is very expensive, and you cannot have undercuts. That's the quick and dirty. Epoxy resin (resin), polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and high impact styrene (HIPS) are the three materials we are likely to see. We should learn these and become sticklers for the proper use of the name, and teach others the same. By this we might encourage manufacturers to be more forthcoming with information, and go after those who attempt to obfuscate what they intend to make their models out of. Knowledge is power, and we must wield that power against those who seek refuge in vaguaries and deception, as well as their supporters in the comments sections and forums who claim "Hey, they never said it was hard styrene! They said hard plastic!" etc. People will try to deflect blame and that is understandable, but the duty for us to shine the light of truth and clarity so that everyone can see. Our sloppy use of terms in the past has hurt us all, and we must step up. Apparently I don't remember how to do embedded URLs... little help? ok got it.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/06/17 17:45:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 16:22:26
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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Probably should put Poly Urethane in the resin write up, since you did it for HIPS & PVC.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 16:28:01
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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That's a good point, though I don't know the difference between the epoxy resins. Urethane is what we use, so I will make note!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 16:34:19
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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That's a fantastic list, Wehrkind! Maybe making it into a Dakka article that could be linked to would be good for information campaign purposes?
I think you could also just edit a line into the Epoxy Resin description mentioning that what is most commonly used is urethane. Smooth On gave a great demo of it at AdeptiCon showing the various durometers that can be achieved using different urethanes... I think you even mentioned that you've tried one which gives you a more flexible cast.
It's all fascinating, and the more wargamers know about the three most common processes for making "plastic" wargaming models, the better they can make decisions about what to purchase.
Edit: I see you already edited in a line about urethane. Later today, I will try to type up a similar list describing how each is produced, as I think that's something people don't understand, either. Epoxy resin is generally cast using a flexible silicone mold, whereas the others require metal tooling. HIPS is the least forgiving of undercuts, and models must be designed specifically with it in mind, while epoxy resin can accomodate a lot of undercuts... and PVC is somewhere in the middle from what I've gathered (it can be flexed out of the metal mold more easily than HIPS).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/17 16:37:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 17:18:06
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps
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Question: What about ABS plastic? I believe that's used in some model kits.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 17:19:15
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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zedmeister wrote:Question: What about ABS plastic? I believe that's used in some model kits.
Similar to HIPS, but different.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 17:24:55
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Inspiring Icon Bearer
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What was the Bones stuff made of? There's actually some of that stuff worth buying, especially for the cost.
Also: I just backed Drakerys >.<..
I have a problem.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 17:28:33
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Thunderfrog wrote:What was the Bones stuff made of? There's actually some of that stuff worth buying, especially for the cost.
Also: I just backed Drakerys >.<..
I have a problem.
Have they said for certain that they're using PVC?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 17:34:15
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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Drakerys said High Strength PVC as I recall. Or very hard pvc... it is in one of the posts in the thread today.
ABS is pretty close to HIPS (being a styrene derivative.) Apparently what Lego are made of. Automatically Appended Next Post: From zreef in the Drak KS thread:
The FAQ is pretty clear on this:
What kind of plastic do you use for the miniatures ?
Our cumulated previous experience with plastic miniatures on other endeavours has made us decide on a very hard PVC plastic.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/17 17:36:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 17:41:03
Subject: Re:Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Dakka Veteran
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It should be noted that VERY few producers use Epoxy resin, it is to thick and the set times often too fast/slow for the use in small miniatures, it is also very hard in silicone molds, leading to early mold failure. PU comes in many formulations and is often colored grey to show detail, hence the confusion between Epoxy resin and PU resin.
Epoxies are stronger but usually more brittle, most typically used in other industries for larger thicker walled castings that require strength or chemical resistance.
PU is formulated anywhere from a rubber constancy to very high impact, just short of what you will find in an Epoxy.
When working with miniature scale you would use a PU with a moderate set time and very low viscosity to help deal with the trapped air in your open face mold pour.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/17 17:42:55
Any resemblance of this post to written English is purely coincidental.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/17 17:44:02
Subject: Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC
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Fixture of Dakka
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Good call. I keep thinking of epoxy as short hand for "two part" but that isn't quite true. I'll edit.
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