Restic Knights - A support group for those afflicted with PVC

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**RiTides**

Thanks for that, NoseGoblin. We used to do this at my work as well, and we always called it "Urethane casting". Mold made from silicone, with polyurethane (PU) of varying set times / viscosity / and of course durometer (hardness when cured) for what would actually be poured in to form the casts.

This is the process Wehrkind and others use which most wargamers refer to as "hand cast resin". I.e. urethane.

**basement.dweller**

There is one more thing that might be added to the list and that is urethane foam. It's common for making visual mockups in industrial design, but has also become common for casting large scale one piece scenics and to some extent really large models (I believe some Titans were made this way).

Commonly you would cast a thin layer of normal Polyurethane resin to catch all the details, and fill the rest with the expanding foam. This is good to make it sturdy and lightweight at the same time. MAS uses it for some of their terrain. If done properly without skipping the detail layer - the only thing telling it's not a solid resin cast is the weight and the porous underside. Even here you get some variants in density.

A block of cast "raw" PU foam is hard to the touch, lightweight an porous and very easy to work with (carving, sanding, lathing). Needs a lot of surface priming and wet sanding to get a nice finish. Oh and it's not recommended to work with this stuff without wearing a mask.

While this is not strictly figure related I would like a complete material list including HDF, acrylic and while it might seem silly - even card (pros, cons) as lasercut terrain and models have become a big part of the hobby and I can't say I personally have had much experience with the different wood/paper materials and how they take to glue and paint, if they need surface prep and all that.

**Piston Honda**

Wehrkind wrote:Drakerys said High Strength PVC as I recall. Or very hard pvc... it is in one of the posts in the thread today.

ABS is pretty close to HIPS (being a styrene derivative.) Apparently what Lego are made of.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
From zreef in the Drak KS thread:

The FAQ is pretty clear on this:

What kind of plastic do you use for the miniatures ?
Our cumulated previous experience with plastic miniatures on other endeavours has made us decide on a very hard PVC plastic.

Isn't the new Wyrd plastics made of ABS? or are they hips?

Someone on the Fallen Frontiers chat said that the term "hard pvc" is just a marketing gimmick. Don't know what his credentials are or what knowledge he has.

It's not about achieving detail, sure it does lose some detail vs resin, but expected. Quite few restic/pvc minis have captured prety damn good detail.

But this was never a matter of detail But the pain in the ass it is to clean up the material.

IT'S NOT FUN!

RiTides wrote:From that list, though, I consider Myth, Rivet Wars, and Arcadia Quest true board games with a lot of sculpts with exaggerated features. PVC works fine for those kinds of board game pieces, many of which will never need to be painted.

Wrath of Kings, much more of a wargame, will be the real test.

Aye, if WoK fails me, it will be the last wargame bought from CMON, last wargame bought in this material.

Ball is their court, see what they can do.

**RiTides**

Wyrd plastics are produced by Wargames Factory, and are HIPS.

This thread is definitely revealing a lot of uncertainty about what is what... I will be putting together an article with some of the information all in one place (likely this weekend), unless someone beats me to it.

**Hulksmash**

Piston Honda wrote:

Aye, if WoK fails me, it will be the last wargame bought from CMON, last wargame bought in this material.

Ball is their court, see what they can do.

I think there are quite a few people in this boat. Whether they pledged or not I feel like this one could have a huge impact. On people's views of PVC/Restic and of CMoN. I know it's a big deal for me anyway.

**Alpharius**

Same here Hulk...same here.

Sedition Wars, Relic Knights and a lot of Deadzone stuff was kind of 'wave 1' for this crap.

WoK made a specific attempt to detail how it was going to be better, so, if it is, excellent!

If not...

**Piston Honda**

Alpharius wrote:
Same here Hulk...same here.

Sedition Wars, Relic Knights and a lot of Deadzone stuff was kind of 'wave 1' for this crap.

WoK made a specific attempt to detail how it was going to be better, so, if it is, excellent!

If not...

I imagined you looking like the killer from No Country for Old men as you said "if Not"

Spoiler:

**Polonius**

I've decided to declare as strict a ban on restic as I can. I've sold nearly all of my Mantic KoW restic, and while I built and painted my Deadzone pledge, it was a slog.

The Myth restic appears better, although the soft detail appears to be more of a feature than a bug there.

PP restic might still make me cry, but I shouldn't have to buy too much more of it.

**Jehan-reznor**

Resin has so many formula's that it ranges from metal quality, HIPS quality to PVC rubberyness.

The main problem IMHO is the quality control of these Restic abominations, as PVC has been used for years in Toy manufactering.

Oh, and ABS is Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene by the way.

**Azazelx**

scarletsquig wrote:
I currently own over 200 restic Mantic Basileans. All unassembled, with the mould lines half-heartedly removed on a dozen angels, a few knights cleaned up here and there, etc... after receiving them last year. The motivation is not exactly there.

I estimate 100 hours total just to clean and assemble the lot.

Then another 100 hours to paint.

This is the problem with restic, a model should never take as long to clean and assemble as it does to paint. I like painting. Cleaning, bending and assembling... feth no. Stabby with the knive, inhaly with the superglue. No fun.

I was going to try out cleaning, assembling and painting a few of the Angels - either a group of 3 or 6. It turns out that I have lost them. Along with quite a few other things, and some weapons that are earmarked for Bob. Pretty much everything from the KS bar the Ogres, actually.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:
Well, I don't think DBX met expectations in terms of a 'final pledge total', maybe?
So maybe people are starting to vote with their wallets, even if only a little bit?
DBX still made quite a bit, but a lot less than DBO, right?

It was an odd campaign. Especially since their "all the marbles/minecart/etc" level was changed towards the end to be "actually, you know what? it's not everything after all - now please buy these add-ons as well!"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thunderfrog wrote:

Having survived Sedition wars, I feel I have earned a stripe or badge, fulling convincing me I can survive any modeling project. I CALL UPON THEE, OLD METAL GALRAUCH. I CHALLENGE YOU, HELLCANNON!

Stitch that kickstarter-exclusive Sedition Wars cloth patch onto your sleeve brother. It's original meaning has been subverted to being a survivor's badge of both honour and shame.

**Jimsolo**

Wehrkind wrote:
Alright, so I think I have an actually useful agenda item for us (beyond reminding each other not to buy more models we hate.)

In a lot of Kickstarters and forum threads there is a great deal of confusion about what "restic", resin, PVC, hard PVC, hard plastic and HIPs actually mean. It would be nice to develop at least a cultural norm for using only specific words for these different materials such that we could eliminate confusion and publicly shame those companies who try to keep that confusion going. For example, the Drakyris KS which refers to its hard PVC as "hard plastic" is confusing, and perhaps not intentionally so, because people ask about hard plastic (which PVC is) when they really mean HIPS like GW and Wargames factor use.

So, to educate ourselves, here are some relevant articles on the topic of the various types of plastics we see:

Resin : The resin we think of when we think of high end boutique miniatures. Hand cast, hard to do in very large volume. Holds detail very well, and is easy to clean up. Also called Urethane Resin, or Epoxy Resin, which seem to be subsets. Urethane (poly or otherwise) are the normal sorts you see. Material properties can vary a good bit, with Ramshackle using a somewhat brittle resin that is stinky while other brands (and many home done models) use a less brittle and not so stinky resin.

PVC (poly vinyl chloride) Same sort of stuff they use in making pipes. Privateer Press, Mantic and others use this material as it is much cheaper to make the molds compared to HIPS, but can be mass produced better compared to resin. Downsides are that it tends not to hold sharp detail well, and filing/cleaning is a pain due to the toughness of the material. Goes by the other names of "restic" and "plastic". Huge range of variability in the final product due to huge range of variability in material properties.

HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) The kind of plastic used in modeling kits, GW and Wargames Factory models. Usually considered the gold standard for mass production, as details can be very fine and parts fitted together very cleanly, as well as being easy to clean up on the user's end. Plastic glue can be used instead of super glue to weld pieces together. Downsides on the producer's side is that the mold tooling is very expensive, and you cannot have undercuts.

So what are Dreamblade/Mageknight/Heroclix figures made out of?

**Jehan-reznor**

I am almost a 100% sure that mageknight and heroclix are made of PVC, don't know about Dreamblade

**Thraxas Of Turai**

I am considering pledging on the Drakerys Kickstarter. The miniatures are a complete unknown quantity. Please help dissuade me brothers.

**Alpharius**

Quite simply put - don't do it.

An unknown company using an 'unknown' material - "Super Awesome Better than Any other version 'HARD' PVC"?

Yeah - no.

If you're tempted, pledge the minimum so you can have access to the Pledge Manager and wait and see if they can actually pull this off.

**Thraxas Of Turai**

But...but...but the minis are so cool. I think you are right though. I am thinking of, maybe, for once, waiting for retail anyway. That way I can see the miniatures once (if they reach that stage) they are in people's hands.

On the restic front the only experience I have is with Mantic. My thoughts are in line with most others, it is not a terrible material for larger miniatures but with rank and file, and organic shapes it can be hideous.

The Basileans I got from the KOW Kickstarter will forever be untouched as too much work is involved to get them to anywhere near the state I would want them. I think they improved the mix or quality control for Deadzone but it is still far from perfect. I just long for the day that most companies can release their models on proper hard plastic sprues, and having worked with Wyrd's plastics I am prepared to pay for it.

**Wehrkind**

Jim Solo: I am 95% certain that any prepaints are a PVC variety. Rackham's pre-paints are, though a somewhat soft PVC more akin to Bones than PP's stuff.

Basically, if it is soft it is some sort of PVC. You can get flexible urethane resins (Smooth On has a lot and I have tried one out) but they are different than PVC in noticeable ways, mostly the texture and sheen they form when cured. The flexible urethanes I have seen look a bit like solidified maple syrup on the thinner bits.

**Valander**

Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
I am considering pledging on the Drakerys Kickstarter. The miniatures are a complete unknown quantity. Please help dissuade me brothers.

Nay, brother, do not waver in your conviction. Though tempted by the seductress, once in her clutches her obfuscation will fall and you will be face to face with the gorgon that Restic is.

Have patience, and see the models with your own eyes (i.e., wait for retail), not through rose colored browser windows.

**frozenwastes**

Yeah, all the prepaints are vinyl based thermal plastics that have various additives and whatnot to make them somewhat pliable. This increases their durability and makes them less likely to break when people just chuck them all in a box.

Reaper made their legendary encounters line of prepaints. Bones as a brand was born when they were asked to produce some of their legendary encounters line without the paint. Bones are explicitly the same material as prepainted miniatures. They just don't get prepainted before they get sold.

**Piston Honda**

Alpharius wrote:
Quite simply put - don't do it.

An unknown company using an 'unknown' material - "Super Awesome Better than Any other version 'HARD' PVC"?

Yeah - no.

If you're tempted, pledge the minimum so you can have access to the Pledge Manager and wait and see if they can actually pull this off.

Wise words my brother.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
But...but...but the minis are so cool. I think you are right though. I am thinking of, maybe, for once, waiting for retail anyway. That way I can see the miniatures once (if they reach that stage) they are in people's hands.

On the restic front the only experience I have is with Mantic. My thoughts are in line with most others, it is not a terrible material for larger miniatures but with rank and file, and organic shapes it can be hideous.

The Basileans I got from the KOW Kickstarter will forever be untouched as too much work is involved to get them to anywhere near the state I would want them. I think they improved the mix or quality control for Deadzone but it is still far from perfect. I just long for the day that most companies can release their models on proper hard plastic sprues, and having worked with Wyrd's plastics I am prepared to pay for it.

There minis, as shown are resin masters.

Like a Venus Fly trap, it will lure you in causing grief and regret for temptation.

**zreef**

Alpharius wrote:
Quite simply put - don't do it.

An unknown company using an 'unknown' material - "Super Awesome Better than Any other version 'HARD' PVC"?

Yeah - no.

If you're tempted, pledge the minimum so you can have access to the Pledge Manager and wait and see if they can actually pull this off.

Just to be clear, although the company is new everyone in the company is not and has experience from many projects (read the bios). So its not really an "unknown" company, its a new company with known people that have done quality work (though that is up to personal opinion).

As for the material, they also have previous experience with PVC. From the Drakerys kickstarter thread one of their previous customers said this:

Triple9 wrote:

For anyone wondering, the Restic minis in the Escape boardgame are quite good given the material. They're a pretty soft blend, but the detail is good, light on the mold lines and well placed. I would expect improvement here.

So its not quite as unknown as you make it out to be. Whether or not you choose to back it is on you, but lets at least put forth all the facts.

**RiTides**

Apparently they're getting away from the "soft blend" PVC and going with "harder"... it's not the kind of thing I'm going to chance until they've tried it out and shown it to actually be better, personally.

**zreef**

Yeah its unclear exactly what you will get, but at least they know the material and have seemingly had success with it. So it is not a shot in the dark.

I am in because they seem to be pretty open to suggestions and have allowed backers to take part in the creative process (to some extent). It is a fun kickstarter to be involved in. The whole thing is a WIP, but has a solid foundation (rules, models, background). To me this is what kickstarting is all about, taking a risk and getting to help shape a future product. Who knows how it will turn out, but I am having fun during the process of it all.

**basement.dweller**

As long as you are getting your moneys worth in fun that's fine I guess. The house always wins when gambling though, until you stop playing

**Wehrkind**

From what I gathered from the other thread on Drak, some of the guys working on it are former Rackham guys. You would be hard pressed to find someone who loves Rackham models more than me!

Then again, "I used to work for Rackham" might mean "I made awesome metal models that people still love to collect and paint" or "I decided that making prepainted PVC models to support our game that not many people played outside of France was a great move, transferred a huge chunk of our capital towards producing that, and sunk the company."

So... being a Rackham guy can go either way really.

**zreef**

basement.dweller wrote:
As long as you are getting your moneys worth in fun that's fine I guess. The house always wins when gambling though, until you stop playing

I never gamble

but I do a lot of investing

**Alpharius**

zreef wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
Quite simply put - don't do it.

An unknown company using an 'unknown' material - "Super Awesome Better than Any other version 'HARD' PVC"?

Yeah - no.

If you're tempted, pledge the minimum so you can have access to the Pledge Manager and wait and see if they can actually pull this off.

Just to be clear, although the company is new everyone in the company is not and has experience from many projects (read the bios). So its not really an "unknown" company, its a new company with known people that have done quality work (though that is up to personal opinion).

As for the material, they also have previous experience with PVC. From the Drakerys kickstarter thread one of their previous customers said this:

Triple9 wrote:

For anyone wondering, the Restic minis in the Escape boardgame are quite good given the material. They're a pretty soft blend, but the detail is good, light on the mold lines and well placed. I would expect improvement here.

So its not quite as unknown as you make it out to be. Whether or not you choose to back it is on you, but lets at least put forth all the facts.

It is a new company that rather strangely and aggressively wants to in no way be affiliated with their past efforts.

They've never tried anything on this scale using this material.

I'd say that's about as 'unknown' as it gets, especially concerning a Kickstarter using a material that's pretty much failed to 'deliver the goods'/live up to the promises and hype.

zreef wrote:Yeah its unclear exactly what you will get, but at least they know the material and have seemingly had success with it. So it is not a shot in the dark.

No warning bells there, right!

Feel free to pledge and roll the dice/accept the risk, but for me?

I'm all set with PVC 'on spec' for the foreseeable future.

I'll wait for retail - and maybe not even then.

**zreef**

Alpharius wrote:

No warning bells there, right!

Feel free to pledge and roll the dice/accept the risk, but for me?

I'm all set with PVC 'on spec' for the foreseeable future.

I'll wait for retail - and maybe not even then.

Not really no ... no more than someone saying they will do resin miniatures. I have seen resin that is good and that is bad. I have seen good resin cast poorly. I have seen poor resin cast well (though gaming with is often terrible). I have seen metal miniatures come out of the same mold differently, one perfectly cast one terribly cast (bolt action). So you never really know what you are going to get until you get it. The only certain material is HIPS and even there the sprue contact points can be placed terribly where you are then stuck cleaning and green stuffing things together. Or the model can be fit poorly from the various pieces.

So in my mind, there is inherent risk in any kickstarter in which you cannot see the minis in person (i.e. all of them that are not a glorified pre-order system). I go into it with that in mind. Heck I order BA stuff knowing that its a roll of the dice, but I know that I can work with whatever I get and get a good end result. In my old age I have just learned to not get worked up about things in my hobbies. It really is far more relaxing that way. I save all my angst and anger for "real life" nonsense.

**Alpharius**

Yeah, I'm not really getting 'worked up' about it, and I'm able to balance by hobby with 'real life' fairly effectively as well, but thanks for the concern, I guess?

I've yet to see a miniature wargaming Kickstarter using "PVC" deliver what I'd consider a 'quality' product.

YMMV, and if so, best of luck to you.

You'll need it.

**Wehrkind**

As a side note, let's leave the comments about people getting "all worked up" to another thread. It is a pretty repugnant line of comment to make in general when referring to posts saying "Eh, not interested, I don't like the material" and the like, and especially in a thread about how much trouble PVC is an how we need to stop buying into it and getting disappointed.

As an aside to the aside, it is interesting how effectively the internet generates new ways of being offensive and passive aggressive about people disagreeing with you. Asserting that people are getting worked up over things when they are making comments is just the latest in the line it seems.

**zreef**

First of let me say I am sorry to Alpharius and Werhkind. My post was not meant as a criticism of anyone, but my personal view point of how I approach my hobby.

It was a post about me, not anyone else in the thread. I literally meant what I posted -- In my old age I have just learned to not get worked up about things in my hobbies. It really is far more relaxing that way. I save all my angst and anger for "real life" nonsense. -- This means that I (me personally) do not get worked up about things in my hobbies (as in I do not let things upset me even if I get a dud miniature) because I have a lot of other things on my plate in my life. This is why I stopped playing in tournaments, because they would work me up. So no implications, no passive aggressiveness, etc.

If you do not like PVC that is ok! The material is controversial, I just happen to have a different opinion on it that what is expressed in this thread.