Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/06 15:47:38
Subject: 200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Ultraviolent Morlock
Bucks, UK
|
Sorry to hit the boards with two different army lists at once but you guys is the best!
Does the below seem like a good use of points?
Fireteam 1: Kamael medic/lieut, FT Makaul and viral rifle Sakiel would be a defensive utility team holding areas up.
Fireteam 2: Kamael medic/lieut, FT makaul and Spitfire Gao-Rael would be the hunting team to go out gunning down camo markers and whatnot.
Clipsos sniper would just sit in hidden deployment just to make my enemy worry for as long as I can hold off using his order
Gao Tarsos with HMG would just appear to assist either fire-team depending on what was going on
I know most options are viable in Infinity, but what do you think about this lot in particular?
I'm not a big fan of the Ectros model at all :(
TOHAA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1    8  0  3
KAMAEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. ( 16)
MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Swarm Grenades, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. ( 18)
SAKIEL Viral Combi Rifle, Swarm Grenades / Pistol, Knife. ( 26)
KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. ( 12)
MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Swarm Grenades, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. ( 18)
GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 38)
CLIPSOS Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 29)
GAO-TARSOS HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 40)
4 SWC | 197 Points
Open with Army 4
|
“Genius might be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple way.” |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/07 21:14:51
Subject: 200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Disguised Speculo
|
This isn't a bad list, but I can give some suggestions as to ways it might be improved. Just remember its not 40k so what works better for me isn't an automatic improvement for everyone else!
~Sakiel Spitfire over Viral in the first link. This gives you a very, very capable team that can seize objectives and kill most anything at a far more reasonable range than the viral combi. This is the foundation of all my Tohaa lists.
~Clipsos FO if your playing ITS. The Sniper has its uses, but your list is light on scoring and an infiltrating FO is invaluable
~Gao Tarsos Paramedic. HMG is by no means a bad unit, but a combi on a 2W model is just as good at close range. You can drop a Paramedic near an objective and take it at a critical moment. I make extensive use of both variants myself.
~Second Triad: Its not bringing very much to the table. I don't use the Rael too often and maybe should do so, but currently, that link isn't very effective IMO. MSV2 spitfire is nice, but with such an easy to kill LT in the unit you'll be taking a huge risk committing it to anywhere that the spitfire can be useful.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/08 17:51:16
Subject: 200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Ultraviolent Morlock
Bucks, UK
|
Dakkamite wrote:This isn't a bad list, but I can give some suggestions as to ways it might be improved. Just remember its not 40k so what works better for me isn't an automatic improvement for everyone else!
~Sakiel Spitfire over Viral in the first link. This gives you a very, very capable team that can seize objectives and kill most anything at a far more reasonable range than the viral combi. This is the foundation of all my Tohaa lists.
~Clipsos FO if your playing ITS. The Sniper has its uses, but your list is light on scoring and an infiltrating FO is invaluable
~Gao Tarsos Paramedic. HMG is by no means a bad unit, but a combi on a 2W model is just as good at close range. You can drop a Paramedic near an objective and take it at a critical moment. I make extensive use of both variants myself.
~Second Triad: Its not bringing very much to the table. I don't use the Rael too often and maybe should do so, but currently, that link isn't very effective IMO. MSV2 spitfire is nice, but with such an easy to kill LT in the unit you'll be taking a huge risk committing it to anywhere that the spitfire can be useful.
I've been rolling this advice around all day on the Army builder, I'm definitely getting a Sakiel spitfire into a fireteam at some point but I am also now swayed by the Ectros HMG option as the mini is much better than I thought after seeing it from some other angles. I've heard a lot of got things about Viral combi's and some of my opponents have some well armoured troops which I think would love to get shot by some viral. Is it worth taking the HMG Ectros over the spitfire Sakiel at this point and then bring in a Spitfire Sakiel when we bump up to the next point bracket? Also thinking of replacing the Gao link team with a sakiel lieutenant team or a Kamael lieut with a sniper who just hangs back in prone... so many choices with Tohaa it's overwhelming!
Sakiel fireteam heavy:
TOHAA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1    10  0  4
KAMAEL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. ( 12)
MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Swarm Grenades, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. ( 18)
SAKIEL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
KAMAEL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. ( 12)
MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Swarm Grenades, Zero-V Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. ( 18)
SAKIEL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. ( 12)
KAMAEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. ( 16)
GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 37)
CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. ( 27)
4 SWC | 200 Points
Open with Army 4
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/08 18:10:20
“Genius might be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple way.” |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 00:59:44
Subject: 200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Disguised Speculo
|
I'm not a fan of the Ectros HMG myself, but thats probably just due to stupid bad luck every time I field him - because theres really no reason why a 4-4 MOV, 3 wound, BS13, 5 shot HMG is anything but awesome. Personally I'd be inclined to use the cheaper Sakiel at 200 and then bump to the Ectros at 300, rather than vice versa.
When I first started using the Sakiel team I would run multiples like you have above. I even ran four at 300pt a few times. However, whilst this redundancy can be very useful (in particular for model trades - lose an expendible team in exchange for an important piece) I now generally just take the one.
Because this team overperforms for its points, it means I have a lot of points available to invest in a second team. When I decide to take two teams, the second is usually a more stand back and shoot choice. Generally speaking, because of the order system its better to have two teams that do different things then two that do the same.
If your playing ITS, then you *must* find points to upgrade the Kamaels in your teams to Paramedics. Otherwise the whole point of the team is lost. If your not playing ITS, the team is less effective, because its role is to seize objectives, and I also don't really know anything about other formats so can't advise much.
I also suggest you take a look at two team lists. Running two triads or three triads are both viable options - but personally I'm inclined to two. Because one triad with orders can pull the same weight as two identical triads, and because Tohaa unlinkable options are superb, I highly recommend you try a double triad list. Chaksa Auxiliars, Clipsos FO, Gao Taros Para/HMG are just incredible units and I can't bear to bring just one to a list when I can have four with two triads, or even seven with one.
Your also going to have Lt trouble with that list. When it comes to Lt, either a Sakiel or other multi-wounder or Kamael and 1+ dummy Kamaels, preferrably unlinked though they can join a gun platform if need be, and ideally hidden on opposite corners of the board can do it. Trust me when I say you do not want a Lt that gets into the thick of the fight unless they can handle it, and if you have a backfield link, it means your Lt and any dummies are all clumped together for one assassin to lay waste to. The best protection against assassins is geography, and since LoL is essentially defeat, protecting your Lt is extremely important.
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/06/09 01:10:20
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 05:31:27
Subject: 200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Yeah, I'd agree with leaving out the Ectros HMG until you go for 300pts.
It's been embarrasingly powerful for me. I've felt bad about it when his B5 HMG just chews through everything in sight. But at 200pts it's fairly expensive, I'd leave it until you go for 300pts and have a few more points to throw around.
Kamaels in links that aren't specialists can be fine in YAMS. They're cheaper than a baseline Makaul if you just can't find that 3 points difference for a Makaul (which does happen from time to time). YAMS doesn't require specialists. But if you're building for ITS, you'll want to bump them up to Forward Observers or Paramedics.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 13:44:53
Subject: Re:200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Ultraviolent Morlock
Bucks, UK
|
Awesome information from both of you I'm back on army builder using the new advice, a few questions though:
Keep in mind I will be using this list in YAMS, so it is less critical to have the ITS objective based fireteams yet!
1) On paper the Gao-Rael spitfire + makaul team looks like it could be an abusive crew seeing as I could block a corridor with Zero-V and then shoot un-opposed with the MSV2 and +1B at the poor chaps on the other side. Was this only discounted because your mindset is ITS objectives? There seems to be a lot of love out there for the Medikit, Makaul, Sakiel combo and I'm guessing this is because it's not an overly expensive toolbox for objective runs, I could definitely see it being the core of an ITS list, but not having played YAMS or ITS with Tohaa I'm a little unsure of what to do... serious cognitive dissonance at the moment.
2) In your experience would a back-field link team with a viral Sakiel lieutenant have a better survivability chance, I can't really work a good list with dummy Kamael at the moment using the models I have? In the back field the combi rifle range issue is less pronounced and I can prepare the team for advancing units, also it would just sit somewhere well guarded until it had to be reactive freeing up the order pool for the aggressive link and my solo operatives. In this setup my army list would be two link teams: the aggressive team, the backfield lieutenant team and then some solo's including a Tarsos as they come so highly regarded! I guess as a last resort the lieutenant team could re-supply the aggressive team at the cost of suppressing the lieutenants impetuous order each turn. Again without playtesting Tohaa I'm just relying on the extra sturdiness of the sakiel and the potential hesitation to engage B2 viral ARO's, B2 Combi and B2 Swarm or a HFT!
3) Are pure Makaul link teams worthwhile? Perhaps impetuous ordering up the field and then forming a link team?
|
“Genius might be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple way.” |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 14:38:08
Subject: Re:200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
DelectableTea wrote:1) On paper the Gao-Rael spitfire + makaul team looks like it could be an abusive crew seeing as I could block a corridor with Zero-V and then shoot un-opposed with the MSV2 and +1B at the poor chaps on the other side. Was this only discounted because your mindset is ITS objectives? There seems to be a lot of love out there for the Medikit, Makaul, Sakiel combo and I'm guessing this is because it's not an overly expensive toolbox for objective runs, I could definitely see it being the core of an ITS list, but not having played YAMS or ITS with Tohaa I'm a little unsure of what to do... serious cognitive dissonance at the moment.
MSV2 can't see through Zero-V Smoke only through regular smoke. You can pop Zero-V smoke then lay a suppression fire lane through the smoke, the Spitfire takes an additional -6 to hit, loses it's +1 Burst link bonus but counts as a Camo attack.
Tohaa medics are better then the average medic since they don't take the -3 PH modifier when picking up a Symbiont armor user from unconscious.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 14:50:09
Subject: Re:200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Ultraviolent Morlock
Bucks, UK
|
4rgfvsw6p wrote: DelectableTea wrote:1) On paper the Gao-Rael spitfire + makaul team looks like it could be an abusive crew seeing as I could block a corridor with Zero-V and then shoot un-opposed with the MSV2 and +1B at the poor chaps on the other side. Was this only discounted because your mindset is ITS objectives? There seems to be a lot of love out there for the Medikit, Makaul, Sakiel combo and I'm guessing this is because it's not an overly expensive toolbox for objective runs, I could definitely see it being the core of an ITS list, but not having played YAMS or ITS with Tohaa I'm a little unsure of what to do... serious cognitive dissonance at the moment.
MSV2 can't see through Zero-V Smoke only through regular smoke. You can pop Zero-V smoke then lay a suppression fire lane through the smoke, the Spitfire takes an additional -6 to hit, loses it's +1 Burst link bonus but counts as a Camo attack.
Tohaa medics are better then the average medic since they don't take the -3 PH modifier when picking up a Symbiont armor user from unconscious.
Ah I read on the infinity wiki http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Multispectral_Visor?action=show&redirect=Multispectral+Visor+L2
"Level 2 allows LoF through Zero Visibility Zones and doesn’t apply the –6 Modifier"
Which is what got me excited about using it that way, am I getting this incorrectly?
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/09 14:50:38
“Genius might be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple way.” |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 15:09:19
Subject: Re:200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
There are two kinds of Smoke, regular and Zero-V smoke. Zero-V smoke behaves exactly like regular smoke except Multispectral Visors cannot see through it.
http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Zero-V_Smoke_Special_Ammunition?action=show&redirect=Zero-V+Smoke
Corvus made a really really poor design decision in calling Zero-V smoke the same as Zero Visibility Zones.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/09 15:27:48
Subject: Re:200pt Tohaa List throwdown
|
 |
Ultraviolent Morlock
Bucks, UK
|
Yeah thanks for clearing that up! I'd not even checked the direct rules for Zero-V smoke just straight assuming it created a zero-v zone!
|
“Genius might be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple way.” |
|
 |
 |
|
|