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There is a DE raider dataslate[Stormsurge] that was mentioned in another thread. I was curious to know if you're allowed to use these in standard games of 40k, or if they're apoc only?

Any citations backing up opinions or thoughts would be appreciated.

Its listed as an Apocalypse Formation...

If its listed as Apoc, its meant for Apoc

The BRB places no limitations on number or type of detachments. And Lords of War opened the door for Apoc units to be in non-apoc games. Assuming you can meet the formation requirements for what you're brining to the table, there is no reason you wouldn't be able to field an apoc formation.

Lords of War opened no door, every Lord of War as specifically listed as a LoW choice for 40k.

Can you choose a unit from Apocalypse books as a Lord of War? If so, why can't you choose a formation from it as well? Is there anything that forces you to pick and choose specific pieces from the book?

You must have permission to use anything. In a LoW slot, there are a number of options in the Escalation supplement that tell you what is legal.

Apoc is not legal except in Apoc. If it says "Apoc Only," then you may not take it elsewhere.

Forge World released a list of other allowed units for LoW slot. Formations are a no-go (unless you and your pals discuss about it to use them anyway)

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

Yes, the fact that you are playing a game of 40K. Apocalypse is a different game, using the same models and many of the same rules. Does not mean they use *all* of the same models and *all* of the same rules.

Fantasy also uses some of the same models, and some of the same rules.....

coredump wrote:
Apocalypse is a different game, using the same models and many of the same rules.

The apocalypse book says "Warhammer 40,000" right above the title of the book. How are we to know what formations, from what books we are allowed to use if it doesn't SAY we can't use them in standard 40k. Based on the cover, it certainly LOOKS like it's the same game, since it's the same name and all. Perhaps in previous editions it directly stated that it was a different game? Does it do so in this edition? If not, why? If so, where?

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

coredump wrote:
Apocalypse is a different game, using the same models and many of the same rules.

The apocalypse book says "Warhammer 40,000" right above the title of the book. How are we to know what formations, from what books we are allowed to use if it doesn't SAY we can't use them in standard 40k. Based on the cover, it certainly LOOKS like it's the same game, since it's the same name and all.

Same overall game, different game type. Has the core rules plus its own for that game type.

Consider Apocalypse to be an 'expansion pack.'

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

The apocalypse book says "Warhammer 40,000" right above the title of the book. How are we to know what formations, from what books we are allowed to use if it doesn't SAY we can't use them in standard 40k. Based on the cover, it certainly LOOKS like it's the same game, since it's the same name and all. Perhaps in previous editions it directly stated that it was a different game? Does it do so in this edition? If not, why? If so, where?

Apocalypse is an expansion. Within the book it explains how you play an Apocalypse game (and what additional rules that means you'll be utilizing).

Apocalype datasheets (including formations) in the apocalypse book all have two icons, one in the upper right (type of datasheet) and one in the upper left (army type) that you don't see on non-apocalypse formations. Those formation types (the upper right symbol) dictate what apocalypse special rules the formation follows. Whereas in Escalation it just categorizes all Lords of War as Lords of War (the symbol of the fist in the upper left corner), in Apocalypse it actually breaks down the different types with the upper right symbol (it shows Super-Heavy Vehicle, Gargantuan Creature, etc).

In the formation dataslates that GW sells independently, they actually say in them:

"If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse.”


So you'll know a formation outside of the apocalypse book is an apocalypse formation because it will say so, or it will have the Apocalypse formation symbols in the top corners of the formation dataslate.

Stormsurge cannot be used in regular 40k, but not for the reason most people think.

It is never, not once, called an Apocalypse formation, or specified as being for Apoc only, anywhere in the rules sheet. The word Apocalypse is only mentioned in the preceding article. Without any rules-specific restriction, it's just a formation, which can be used in any game. (As I understand it, at the time of its printing such a distinction wasn't required since formations were Apoc only anyway, and it was the arrival of 7th ed that changed that.)

HOWEVER, the units within are referred to as being placed in 'strategic reserve,' and it as been pointed out to me that Strategic Reserve (as opposed to regular Reserves, Deep Strike Reserves, or Ongoing Reserves) is an Apoc-only concept.

If I'm wrong, and I can use the Stormsurge in a competitive environment, then someone please let me know! I'd love to be able to field it, since nobody around here ever plays apoc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

The apocalypse book says "Warhammer 40,000" right above the title of the book. How are we to know what formations, from what books we are allowed to use if it doesn't SAY we can't use them in standard 40k. Based on the cover, it certainly LOOKS like it's the same game, since it's the same name and all. Perhaps in previous editions it directly stated that it was a different game? Does it do so in this edition? If not, why? If so, where?

Apocalypse is an expansion. Within the book it explains how you play an Apocalypse game (and what additional rules that means you'll be utilizing).

Apocalype datasheets (including formations) in the apocalypse book all have two icons, one in the upper right (type of datasheet) and one in the upper left (army type) that you don't see on non-apocalypse formations. Those formation types (the upper right symbol) dictate what apocalypse special rules the formation follows. Whereas in Escalation it just categorizes all Lords of War as Lords of War (the symbol of the fist in the upper left corner), in Apocalypse it actually breaks down the different types with the upper right symbol (it shows Super-Heavy Vehicle, Gargantuan Creature, etc).

In the formation dataslates that GW sells independently, they actually say in them:

"If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse.”


So you'll know a formation outside of the apocalypse book is an apocalypse formation because it will say so, or it will have the Apocalypse formation symbols in the top corners of the formation dataslate.

The italicized text you mention does not appear on the datasheet anywhere. You seem to have a better grasp on this Yak, so where does that leave us? (Not being snarky; real question.) It DOES have a DE logo on the top left and what I can only assume is a formation symbol on the top right.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The italicized text you mention does not appear on the datasheet anywhere. You seem to have a better grasp on this Yak, so where does that leave us? (Not being snarky; real question.) It DOES have a DE logo on the top left and what I can only assume is a formation symbol on the top right.

Just for reference, the italicized text I posted was from one of the digital datasheets you can buy from GW. They clarify that in there because those datasheets can have both regular formations and apocalypse formations in the same datasheet.

As for the Stormsurge datasheet in particular, the title of the actual article says 'Apocalypse Datasheet' right on it.

I'll post a screen cap of the digital white dwarf page below for reference.

So in short, the Kabalite Stormsurge is most definitely an Apoc datasheet.

It says Apocalypse right there!
And again in the paragraph immediately following it!

Okay, I agree that the article goes on about Apocalypse several times.

But the datasheet (the page with the actual rules on it) never says it.

The 'Strategic Reserves' bit makes it all a moot point, though.