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Umm I must agree that Eldar WS are Bane to DE. Yes we have Tools to kill a few, but its still an Uphill battle.

NOW dont think im all negative thats just how WH40k is, Rock, Paper, Scissors. DE tables Nids, Eldar tables DE, etc... Each army has play-styles, strengths and weaknesses , there will always bee counters to those, a good player will understand these and try his best to work against them but it will be an uphill battle, at least in 40k Rock and beat Paper

Take Eldar allies and grab a few Serpents of your own.

Each army has some counters, unfortunately for DE Serpents counter them HARD.

It's like the Psyfleman dreadnought in 5th, the Serpent, IMO, completely invalidates DE vehicles.

Amishprn86 wrote:
Umm I must agree that Eldar WS are Bane to DE. Yes we have Tools to kill a few, but its still an Uphill battle.

NOW dont think im all negative thats just how WH40k is, Rock, Paper, Scissors. DE tables Nids, Eldar tables DE, etc... Each army has play-styles, strengths and weaknesses , there will always bee counters to those, a good player will understand these and try his best to work against them but it will be an uphill battle, at least in 40k Rock and beat Paper

what counters Eldar hard?

Seen Daemons (6e) beat them many times, seen some Battle reports where MSU SoB win aswel.

Eldar are more of a Low model count elite unit if they do WS spam, Ignore Cover, CC, AT while out man. If they only have 8-9 units on the table they can only kill at most 8-9 of your units at the most and for each unit you kill you are Hitting a bigger blow. If you can get units like Hive Guard in Range they could do some good damage or IG with Ignore Cover S8/S9.

Im not an expert just how I see it, I do feel Eldar is a very strong top tier army and many times will be an Up hill battle.

Shingen wrote:
Wave Serpents are not that good for the points cost. CC or rear armor and they are screwed, I really don't get the hype either.

I literally just choked on my food because I laughed so hard when reading this!

Clearly you didn't laugh that hard...

I've been worrying about this match up (haven't played against it yet but my counters are:
3 ravagers

Beast pack (15 khymera, 4 razor wings, eldrad, baron)

2 units of haywire scourges

If I get in combat with the beast pack I can turbo boost eldar jetbikes to trap the guys inside and it's game over. Shooting will always be a problem but you just have to deal with it I guess.

Shingen wrote:
Wave Serpents are not that good for the points cost. CC or rear armor and they are screwed, I really don't get the hype either.

Its not about me being right or wrong or being and the rest of what you said, its about the attitude of some people who are so defeatist, it doesn't help newer players learn anything.

Funniest/Saddest and most incorrect thing I have read here for a long time pretending that OP units are not doesn't help anyone either...........

I played a great game against Eldar in a Tournament a few days ago, not a single Wave Serpent to be seen and we both had an enjoyable match

Its amazing how much fun games can be when the cheese units ae not spammed or even taken...............

They in my opinion are not OP.

They don't cause me issues, so to me they are not a big concern.

If you have issues with them that's fine, I have learnt to deal with them and in my humble opinion they are not that good, especially in 7th.

Shingen, can you post us your list? I am interested to see what you use to bring them down. The only viable thing i see if the Beast Pack, but even that is not invincible. Ravagers simply aren't effective, Void Ravens fail due to cover saves and Grotesques rely on their Raider to get them anywhere.

So, prey tell, what is this list you have came up with that pushes such massive threats such as Wave Serpents down to non-issue? Just to be stated, if you even mention Eldar allies i will be extremely unhappy.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Shingen, can you post us your list? I am interested to see what you use to bring them down. The only viable thing i see if the Beast Pack, but even that is not invincible. Ravagers simply aren't effective, Void Ravens fail due to cover saves and Grotesques rely on their Raider to get them anywhere.

So, prey tell, what is this list you have came up with that pushes such massive threats such as Wave Serpents down to non-issue? Just to be stated, if you even mention Eldar allies i will be extremely unhappy.

I second this. I would REALLY like to see that list.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
What in my army can counter these things! They sit at the very nadir of effectiveness of Dark Lances, which are great against AV 10,11,13 and 14 but have trouble with AV 12, especially when that AV 12 has a 3+ cover save when jinking and has the possibility ti downgrade pens to glances. If i was to do the math, the Wave Serpent has 3 hull points, so I glance on 4+ so i need 6 hits, he has a 3+ jink so i need 18(!!!!) Dark Lance shots to take down a single Wave Serpent via hull points.That simply isn't possible, *EVEN* when they are snap firing they still have the ability destroy most Dark Eldar vehicles with the Twin-Linked Scatter laser and the 'Twin-linked' Serpent Shield. 'Haywire Wyches!' i here you shout, but how on Earth do the Wyches get there in a 2 Hull Point AV 10 Venom. Without resorted to Eldar allies, how can i handle this horrible, horrible machine that can personally take out every tank in my army even when snap firing?

Actually you need 18 HITS not SHOTS. That is 27 shots at bs4!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In comparison a land raider with its full 4 hps requires 24 dark lance shots (assuming no explodes results), whilst a leman russ requires only 18 shots (also assuming no explodes results).
Show that to those who say its not hard to take down a serpent.

Amishprn86 wrote:
Umm I must agree that Eldar WS are Bane to DE. Yes we have Tools to kill a few, but its still an Uphill battle.

NOW dont think im all negative thats just how WH40k is, Rock, Paper, Scissors. DE tables Nids, Eldar tables DE, etc... Each army has play-styles, strengths and weaknesses , there will always bee counters to those, a good player will understand these and try his best to work against them but it will be an uphill battle, at least in 40k Rock and beat Paper

I respect this positive attitude, but in my experience this just isn't true. Even without allies, many armies currently have the tools to work around their traditional weaknesses seamlessly. Eldar WS are a great example of this, as there's nothing fragile about these MFers.

Need to do 3 Hull Points. Glance on 4's. So i need 6 hits to cause 3 Hull Points. He *can* have a 3+ jink, so that Sky Rockets to 18 hits needed to cause 3 Hull Points. To get 18 hits, 1/3 will miss, meaning 27 shots are needed.

Is this wrong? I am not great with maths.

Edit: That, in context, is the equivalent of 9 Ravagers all shooting into a single Wave Serpent that is Jinking. On the other hand, a single Wave Serpent shooting does 3 Scatter Laser hits and 4 possible Serpent Shield hits, which causes 4 ish glances on almost anything in my army! Sure i can make him jink, but even a jinking Wave Serpent is a considerable threat!

Yes - that is spot on. However there is also the fact that the last hull point is just as likely to be taken down with the 19th shot (assuming the average that it took 18 to take off 2), as the 27th shot so realistically it is around the 22nd/23rd shot that we expect it to lose the 3rd hull point (with the raider it becomes the 21st/22nd shot and the russ gets 15th/16th shot). But that's overcomplicating the issue, especially when you consider even the 27th may not cause that 3rd hp and thus have to also take that into account.
The maths you have used is correct. You simply forgot to account the to hit roll in the first instance.

DE are all about high pressure builds unless you want to sit at the back of the board with your nightshields and pray nothing bad happens.

Try Reavers, a Beastpack and Deep Striking units as a starting point as well as Haywire Wyches. The aim is to swamp their side of the board, its possible to surround Wave Serpents with Vehicles or troops turn 1 in such a way that they cant go anywhere or at the very least have to move 12" to make 1 of their weapons snap fire. They also wouldn't be able to get any troops out the vehicle due to enemy models being in the way of the hatch.

Use your heavy support to force jinks so they have to snap shoot.

Its really not rocket science... You simply overwhelm them, thats kinda the whole point of DE MSU builds, there is simply too much for your opponent to kill.

Throw a few Trophies on the Venoms to reroll pinning and leadership tests and you are golden.

Yes you will lose a few vehicles turn 1 but you are restricting their movement, making them pick targets and you are almost guaranteed to kill probably half the serpents turn 2. Bare in mind that a Serpent and 5 Avengers costs pretty much the same as 2 units of Wyches in Venoms who cares if you lose 1 of the Venoms, you have 5 more plus the rest of your list.

Im not going to post lists to try and prove my point, sit down, look through the Codex and pick models that will work.

I have 1/2 lists for tournaments and I dont deviate from them (except I need to update them for 7th ED now a bit), no list tailoring, all comers lists.

So yet again, you respond with all this propaganda about how easy it is for you to beat Wave Serpents, yet refuse to show a list.

There is only one reason you wouldn't.

Have a nice day.

Just thought about a wraithknight compared to a serpent, both in the open...
It will take 18 dark lance shots on average to kill a wraithknight in the open. That means a serpent is 50% more durable in comparison (when considering dark lances of course). And the dark lance is supposed to be an AT weapon.
Some people will moan that I am talking about both being in the open, but if you consider them both in cover then the serp will still get a 3+ but won't have to jink! Yes - the wraithknight becomes slightly more durable in this scenario (25% more) - but you'd bloody well hope so at twice the points! Also such durability in the open IS important in the WS debate, as it is a transport after all, being able to burst across open terrain without a care in the world to deliver its shooty cargo is a massive advantage!
Now when you consider that people believe the wraithknight to be incredibly durable, you begin to see how insane a serpent truely is.

I'm not going to provide you with a list of a silver platter, plus my way of playing doesn't necessarily suit your style of play.

Put it this way however, I have 0 "ZERO" Dark Lances or Blasters in my lists (Except for a Blast Pistol if I am using Sliscus).

You can work it out yourself, I am trying to explain but everyone just keeps dismissing outright without thinking about it.

Think outside the box, open Battlescribe or Army Builder and have a think about, get your models out (I have Serpents and DE) and throw some dice and practice on your own then give it a shot when your playing a friend or something.

 SHUPPET wrote:
There is only one reason you wouldn't.

No there are more than 1, I could tell you loads of things to try but I am not going to simply "tell" you how to play your game, my style of play works for me, might not work for other people. You can do what you wish with what information I have already handed out in the thread, all I have had back from trying to help people think in a different way is hostility and stupid comments like:

> "Have a nice day"
> "I literally just choked on my food because I laughed so hard when reading this!"

If you want a interesting, intelligent, mature conversation about it and would like to think for yourself a bit without being spoon fed let me know...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just thought about a wraithknight compared to a serpent, both in the open...
It will take 18 dark lance shots on average to kill a wraithknight in the open. That means a serpent is 50% more durable in comparison (when considering dark lances of course). And the dark lance is supposed to be an AT weapon.
Some people will moan that I am talking about both being in the open, but if you consider them both in cover then the serp will still get a 3+ but won't have to jink! Yes - the wraithknight becomes slightly more durable in this scenario (25% more) - but you'd bloody well hope so at twice the points! Also such durability in the open IS important in the WS debate, as it is a transport after all, being able to burst across open terrain without a care in the world to deliver its shooty cargo is a massive advantage!
Now when you consider that people believe the wraithknight to be incredibly durable, you begin to see how insane a serpent truely is.

Eldar Allies (I know some people hate me for saying it) really help with this.

I have a Farseer with 9 Reavers and hope for Misfortune, simply rend the stupid thing to Death...

Shingen wrote:
DE are all about high pressure builds unless you want to sit at the back of the board with your nightshields and pray nothing bad happens.

Try Reavers (1 in 3 get Special Weapons? Not cost efficient), a Beastpack (Strength 4, sure they get a lot of attacks but it's not a done deal. They are also quite killable without Eldar allies, which i will not consider) and Deep Striking units (Such as Scourges? 2 Haywire Blasters is not cost efficient. Blasterborn might work, but they are a lot of points for a few weapons we KNOW are not effective) as a starting point as well as Haywire Wyches (Who make terrible troops for taking objectives. Also, Venoms are not survivable in the slightest) . The aim is to swamp their side of the board (They move just as fast as us), its possible to surround Wave Serpents with Vehicles or troops turn 1 (Yes, lets Turbo Boost into the middle of the entire Eldar army. I am sure that 4+ cover save will save us...) in such a way that they cant go anywhere or at the very least have to move 12" to make 1 of their weapons snap fire (Not much of a problem, even snap firing the Scatter Laser gets a hit, then the Shield will kill *something*). They also wouldn't be able to get any troops out the vehicle due to enemy models being in the way of the hatch (How close do you think i am! Is this Eldar player an idiot? Why would he WANT to get out his small 5 man DA units until at least turn 4, and if you have enough vehicles turn 4 to do this, then congratz!).

Use your heavy support to force jinks so they have to snap shoot.

Its really not rocket science... You simply overwhelm them, thats kinda the whole point of DE MSU builds, there is simply too much for your opponent to kill.

Throw a few Trophies on the Venoms to reroll pinning and leadership tests and you are golden.

Yes you will lose a few vehicles turn 1 but you are restricting their movement (How, they are Skimmers also, they can fly over us...), making them pick targets and you are almost guaranteed to kill probably half the serpents turn 2 (With what magic devise? They priorities Wyches, then next turn our Dark Light glances ineffectually off their hulls). Bare in mind that a Serpent and 5 Avengers costs pretty much the same as 2 units of Wyches in Venoms who cares if you lose 1 of the Venoms, you have 5 more plus the rest of your list. (Bare in mind 5 Avengers and a Serpent is almost 100% likely to kill something a turn in the Dark Eldar army, while 2 Haywire Wyches in Venoms are only effective against a single thing (Venom doesn't shoot if you are turbo boosting to get close), then factor in failing the charge, not hitting with enough attacks, it's quite likely 5 Wyches might fail to kill a Serpent).

Im not going to post lists to try and prove my point, sit down, look through the Codex and pick models that will work.

I have 1/2 lists for tournaments and I dont deviate from them (except I need to update them for 7th ED now a bit), no list tailoring, all comers lists.

Please, i would REALLY like to see this list. Because this turn 1 suicide rush sounds...well, like a suicide rush. Bare in mind he only has 3/4 Serpents, the rest can be anything from Warp Spiders (Don't even get me started on them!) to War Walkers to Seer Councils to the Laughing Autarch.

Oh, there is another thing. How do Dark Eldar handle the Laughing Autarch save for the Beast Pack which will never reach him? I can't think, other then Liquifiers, that our entire army has a single ignore cover weapon while he Laser Lances and Fusion Guns his way through our Transports and 5 Man squads.

**EDIT** No Dark Light? Interesting. That means, since you are running Sliscus, you are running several Haywire Wyches and maybe a 5 Man Venom Squad or two? A Splinter Born squad? Your heavy support is...Talosi? You said Deep Striking, so i assume Scourges? This list sounds interesting to say the least, which makes me want to see it even more!

Also, Rending? Our Poison is Strength 1, unless you are rending with Heat Lances i am confused here?

Nobody wants to be spoonfed, people just think you are doing the typical 40k gamer of thing of pretending that you know some elite way to beat a tough match up, that nobody else has thought of yet, even though you quite clearly have the same tools to work with that the rest of us have had for the last 3 and a half years, and truthfully are just trying to elevate what you believe is people's impressions of yourself as an intelligent gamer with such nonsense talk of "oh the Wave Serpent match up never gives me trouble as DE, don't know what you guys could possibly be doing wrong".


Your listed counters are not cost efficient counters. Even with the cost aside, I'm not sure they are counters at all. Other than Haywire Wyches, logic expresses to me that almost nothing you just mentioned will work in a sensible game.


You're either lying, or you play against bad Eldar. There's not much else to it if you are unwilling to share a list and prove us otherwise. Maybe you will get some good C&C. By the sounds of it, you could probably use it.


Have a nice day.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Shingen wrote:
DE are all about high pressure builds unless you want to sit at the back of the board with your nightshields and pray nothing bad happens.

Try Reavers (1 in 3 get Special Weapons? Not cost efficient), a Beastpack (Strength 4, sure they get a lot of attacks but it's not a done deal. They are also quite killable without Eldar allies, which i will not consider) and Deep Striking units (Such as Scourges? 2 Haywire Blasters is not cost efficient. Blasterborn might work, but they are a lot of points for a few weapons we KNOW are not effective) as a starting point as well as Haywire Wyches (Who make terrible troops for taking objectives. Also, Venoms are not survivable in the slightest) . The aim is to swamp their side of the board (They move just as fast as us), its possible to surround Wave Serpents with Vehicles or troops turn 1 (Yes, lets Turbo Boost into the middle of the entire Eldar army. I am sure that 4+ cover save will save us...) in such a way that they cant go anywhere or at the very least have to move 12" to make 1 of their weapons snap fire (Not much of a problem, even snap firing the Scatter Laser gets a hit, then the Shield will kill *something*). They also wouldn't be able to get any troops out the vehicle due to enemy models being in the way of the hatch (How close do you think i am! Is this Eldar player an idiot? Why would he WANT to get out his small 5 man DA units until at least turn 4, and if you have enough vehicles turn 4 to do this, then congratz!).

Use your heavy support to force jinks so they have to snap shoot.

Its really not rocket science... You simply overwhelm them, thats kinda the whole point of DE MSU builds, there is simply too much for your opponent to kill.

Throw a few Trophies on the Venoms to reroll pinning and leadership tests and you are golden.

Yes you will lose a few vehicles turn 1 but you are restricting their movement (How, they are Skimmers also, they can fly over us...), making them pick targets and you are almost guaranteed to kill probably half the serpents turn 2 (With what magic devise? They priorities Wyches, then next turn our Dark Light glances ineffectually off their hulls). Bare in mind that a Serpent and 5 Avengers costs pretty much the same as 2 units of Wyches in Venoms who cares if you lose 1 of the Venoms, you have 5 more plus the rest of your list. (Bare in mind 5 Avengers and a Serpent is almost 100% likely to kill something a turn in the Dark Eldar army, while 2 Haywire Wyches in Venoms are only effective against a single thing (Venom doesn't shoot if you are turbo boosting to get close), then factor in failing the charge, not hitting with enough attacks, it's quite likely 5 Wyches might fail to kill a Serpent).

Im not going to post lists to try and prove my point, sit down, look through the Codex and pick models that will work.

I have 1/2 lists for tournaments and I dont deviate from them (except I need to update them for 7th ED now a bit), no list tailoring, all comers lists.

Please, i would REALLY like to see this list. Because this turn 1 suicide rush sounds...well, like a suicide rush. Bare in mind he only has 3/4 Serpents, the rest can be anything from Warp Spiders (Don't even get me started on them!) to War Walkers to Seer Councils to the Laughing Autarch.

Oh, there is another thing. How do Dark Eldar handle the Laughing Autarch save for the Beast Pack which will never reach him? I can't think, other then Liquifiers, that our entire army has a single ignore cover weapon while he Laser Lances and Fusion Guns his way through our Transports and 5 Man squads.

**EDIT** No Dark Light? Interesting. That means, since you are running Sliscus, you are running several Haywire Wyches and maybe a 5 Man Venom Squad or two? A Splinter Born squad? Your heavy support is...Talosi? You said Deep Striking, so i assume Scourges? This list sounds interesting to say the least, which makes me want to see it even more!

Also, Rending? Our Poison is Strength 1, unless you are rending with Heat Lances i am confused here?

Rending is for the Reavers, their bladevane attacks are S6 and S4 but against anything with a toughness value its irrelevant as a 6 is an auto wound with rending anyway at AP2 (I am assuming you knew that but as you quoted S1 I thought I better mention it!).

That also benefits the Poison weapons as they are auto wounding at AP2 as well, Wraithknights as you can imagine are not too pleased about that, or Nids, or Riptides etc etc.


Shuppet with regards to how to deal with everything you listed...

In Elites I have 3 Shard Truborn in a Venom with Sliscus and a Haemo (Crucible and Shattershard), Sliscus obviously gives all the vehicles retrofire jets for free so you can deep strike them, just drop them "near" to the council and fire off the crucible. Or drop some Ravagers behind their lines. I prefer not to use Dark Lance Rav's however for forcing Jink they are good. For what they provide to me personally (they miss all the bloody time and hardly ever penetrate) I would rather take my changes with the stuff that glances on a 2 constantly that a 4+ (again personal preference). I prefer (almost) guaranteed kills and not speculative shots.

Yes a lot of it is a "suicide rush" as you put it however if you use LOS terrain to your advantage and the MSU aspect of DE its unlikely all your opponents serpents are going to be able to hit something, venom's are extremely small and easy to hide. Yes they will make a dent in the vehicles but they wont get them all and only a couple need to make it through. As I said about 20 posts ago the Venom's for me are a delivery method and nothing more (unless they are still alive).

"(How, they are Skimmers also, they can fly over us...)" - Yes they cant but they still have to be 1" away from one of our models, if they move more than 6" the guys inside cant get out to kill any Wyches if they fall out the Venoms...

Consider also that the Reavers will hopefully have either a free pain token or +1 strength from combat drugs which means after they have bladevaned they can go and stuff 27 combat attacks + the farseer(s) attacks into the backside of one of the serpents which should finish another one off. This also benefits the Wyches as hopefully you fell out on top of a wreck for a 5+ cover save (if obscured by the wreck) and FNP.


For the sake of trying to move this conversation on without all the willy waggling because I'm rather tired of it by now...

I'm not trying to make myself out to be something I am not, I do not need a big head, I am confident in my abilities and that is that. Positive thinking is something I do all the time, being negative isn't part of my Psyche, I get a little overexcited at times and I apologize if I come across a bit strong / overbearing at times. My social skills are a bag of gak and I hate explaining myself!

I am not saying I win all the time, god no, I do lose fairly often at times, plus I don't play Eldar each week. I use the same list whatever I am playing be it Farsight Bomb, O'Vesa (thank god thats gone!), Necron Wraithwing, Centurian Deathstars or anything else. As I mentioned before its a list I have played with (A LOT), its been a work in progress for about 4 months as I am getting ready for tournaments later this year and its a list I am very comfortable using (not taking Eldar allies at the moment but considering it, don't think DE need them though!.

I don't, cant and wont win every game, I do lose to Eldar now and again (my friend beat me last week with what was essentially a highlander list, Falcon and a Eldrad blob squad behind an Aegis!). Don't get me wrong, placement has a lot of part in it, your opponent should be able to read the situation but the amount of people that flap and cant concentrate when there are a million and one things going on is pretty high;

Sorry if I have been irate in the past on this thread but the sheer amount of negativity when there are options available just makes me cringe...

Shingen wrote:
Rending is for the Reavers, their bladevane attacks are S6 and S4 but against anything with a toughness value its irrelevant as a 6 is an auto wound with rending anyway at AP2 (I am assuming you knew that but as you quoted S1 I thought I better mention it!).

That also benefits the Poison weapons as they are auto wounding at AP2 as well, Wraithknights as you can imagine are not too pleased about that, or Nids, or Riptides etc etc.

Can you clarify this for me? While rending on reavers blade vanes is nice vs infantry, you can not use the blade vane attack vs vehicles... and killing infantry has never been an issue for any DE army I have built.

I think he was talking about killing the WK with the rending ^




Thanks for the positive explanation but all any of us really wanted was to see the list you use, as it's hella annoying when we all struggle with a certain match up and someone comes in and says "well I know how to beat it, but not telling!". It just comes across pretty dickish, doesn't add anything to the discussion, and makes people suspect you don't actual know any better than the rest of us do. Any statements like that are just completely subjective anyway and if you aren't willing to contribute (you know, the question asked in the original post was "how can I handle this horrible match up" then maybe consider not posting.

Shingen wrote:
Eldar Allies (I know some people hate me for saying it) really help with this.

Well, that's because the original post specifically stated "without resorting to Eldar allies".


I do appreciate that you gone into a bit of detail with your strategies though now and people can decide for themselves if what works for you works for them.
From my perspective


Sliscus, Wyches and Reavers are definitely good.
Shattershard on a DS Skimmer finds its way into everything I build. Also gets the thumbs up from me.
Crucible of Malediction is going to do absolutely feth all to a SeerCouncil. It's cheap to take so no harm done really, might make its points back with some lucky rolls against certain match ups, but it's far from a reliable counter to anything.
Trueborn with Shardcarbines seems like just a more expensive way to take as many shots as a Venom, at half the range, with no Twin-Linked, and no mobility of its own. Definitely a pass.


All in all I think all that can be really taken from what you said is "Take Sliscus, spam Wyches and use your Reavers better". Which I don't think is bad advice at all. But isn't necessary that easy to add to an army and leads to a pretty focused build. It would also take a lot of Wyches to even the score against Wave Serpents.

The Shardcarbines are poison 3+ though and the Haemos pistol is as well because of Sliscus special rule.

Raider full of guys would be better but points are at a premium.

The Seer Council can be a pain in the ass I agree. I like to stick rending on them which can help. Best bet weirdly is to misfortune them and then let them charge your beastpack. They might have rerollable saves but a lot of them will be against their invuls. If you get turn 1 as well reavers can make a bit of a mess of them as they pretty much just ignore the Baron.

Oh forgot to mention. Trueborn with splinter weps have haywire grenades so they still have AT if needed.

Ok that makes more sense about the Shardborn then.

Yeah I'm not too concerned about the Seer Council.

Let's not lose sight of the real issue being Wave Serpents who are nigh unkillable to anything but Haywire Grenades.

Is it almost a necessity now to spam Wyches? 2-3 units of Wyches aren't making it to Wave Serpents I'm afraid. so 4+ units of Wyches?

+ multiple Beastpacks?

IS THIS THE WAY AHEAD??

I don't think multiple beats is required.

Based on the fact we don't have many AP1 weapons I seriously think haywire and glancing to death is going to work better.

This also applies to titans and all the other gak GW have added to the game.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Currently eldar steam roll DE. It sucks but we just need to hang tight until fall when we allegedly get our update. I'm praying they add some tools when they do, though odds are it will always be a rough fight. What we need is MUCH more open availability for haywire blasters, its a very fluffy weapon that suits us, it just needs assault 2 and as I said, better access and I think we shimmy up the poll quite a bit.

So because you're incapable of dealing with one or two vehicles, your army should have completely OP weapons ? ... definitely bro.


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Zanais wrote:
Oh, make them jink with Ravagers? Oh, hitting on 3+ S8 against AV 12, any smart Eldar player will have his Serpents hidden behind some terrain which with holo-fields give them 4+ or 3+ cover. Now lets see what you can do with your Ravagers shooting. And EVEN if Serpent jink, twin linked scatter + twin linked shield has stilla good chance of killing your Venoms.

I agree that beasts especially with fortune/invis might reach Serpents but seriously. 1-2 Serpents is not problem, but play against 4-5+ and your Wyches wont reach anything. Serpent Spam kill DE, simple as that, unless you have lucky dice rolls, in which case you can win with anything.

No. You either hide or jink or shoot. Serpents don't have jink + cover + shoot every turn all the time. I don't know how many HP a Venom has, but on jink a full SL+SC+SS will have on average 1.485 S6 hits and 1.0725 S7 ignore cover hits. It looks like a Vyper so I guess it has armor 10, open-top and JINK. My guess is that it may still die if it does not jink .. and might die even if it does.. who knows. Probably not the best unit to fight a Wave Serpent with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zanais wrote:
I play both DE and Eldar. Sure, 2-3 Ravager will force to jink/stun/destroy 1 Serpent. What about rest? Playing against DE you just place your Serpents as far away as possible and use your 60" shields. And dont forget Eldar will have other things in his list not only Serpents. Seriously, even Avengers can kill Venoms and Raiders, amount of S6-7 Eldars can shoot against AV10 army is too much most of the time for DE to handle. Every destroyed Venom is also killing few Wyches onboard, force pinning, maybe LD test.
I dont know against which Eldars players you played, but dont say Eldars are easy preu for DE cause it just not true. If I go to tournament I take Eldar vs DE anytime.

You would be easy prey for DE, with your 60" shields. The only way the WS is competitive is when you fire at least SL+SS @36", or SL+SC+SS@24". If the shields were 36" or even 30" I'd probably never see the difference.

morgoth wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Currently eldar steam roll DE. It sucks but we just need to hang tight until fall when we allegedly get our update. I'm praying they add some tools when they do, though odds are it will always be a rough fight. What we need is MUCH more open availability for haywire blasters, its a very fluffy weapon that suits us, it just needs assault 2 and as I said, better access and I think we shimmy up the poll quite a bit.

So because you're incapable of dealing with one or two vehicles, your army should have completely OP weapons ? ... definitely bro.

Good post!

You have completely ignored the fact that DE is a glass cannon army that is the easiest to kill and completely underpowered in this aspect, and as such to balance this NEEDS to have Overpowered weaponry or else they are just "glass, with regular shooting."

Have you looked at the dex? It's a T3 army with AV10 FA on all but two Vehicles who were lucky enough to get AV 11. (no serpent shields FYI)

That means the transports die to bolter fire.

The army has a Haywire Blaster. It's a balanced gun that fires only a single Haywire shot, but can only be taken on 2 different units in the army.'


One of the units that can take it cost 22 PPM (before factoring in gun price) for a T3 model with a 4+ save. AKA Pathfinder resilience. Except they don't get Markerlights. On a minimum 5 man squad, it can be purchased twice. And then none of the other weapons can be touched, leaving it with 9 wasted Shardcarbine shots everytime it uses its Blasters as poison does not affect Vehicles. 130 pts for 2 shots, carried by 5 deepstriking Pathfinders, 3 of which don't get to shoot. Absolutely useless.


The other units that can take it is a 100 pt 3 wound MC who alone takes up a crucial HS support. He gets 1 haywire shot if you choose to replace his other, better weapon, and nothing else.


Being able to kill Vehicles is something an army built off the concept of being paper-thing but hard hitting glass cannon (it even describes it as such in the codex) should be capable of doing. Should be capable of doing easily in fact, let alone be "incapable" of. The gun is balanced, the poster you quoted was merely asking for more availability for it amongst the army. Next time you enter a thread in this catergory, I'd suggest familiarizing yourself with the army before making comments about it and looking foolish. You don't even know the stats of the units you are talking about let alone the army as a whole lol.


But let me guess, you're the type of player who brings Superheavies to a 1500 pt game and thinks Haywire is just OP bs amirite

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I played a great game against Eldar in a Tournament a few days ago, not a single Wave Serpent to be seen and we both had an enjoyable match. Had another game against a different Eldar player in the Semi-Finals, got all but tabled turn 3 and have up. Do you want to know why i lost? He got first turn.

Saying use LOS is utterly useless, any player worth his salt will assault you from different angles, and planning on the other player being inept is a bad plan. Wraithknights are not half as helpless as people make out, it takes 18 wounds (36 hits, 40 odd shots) to kill that thing, which isn't easy to do in a single turn if he deploys smartly, especially when they can get back wounds from that Stone and Renewer. I think i will just have to accept Warhammer isn't balanced and if you play Wave Serpents (3+), you won't play me.

Eldar. Tournament. not a single Wave Serpent. > If you play against people who don't even take 3WS for their elite, I sure hope you win, because they can't play Eldar.
Tabled. Wraith Knights. > Let me guess, he also had a Jet Council ? Maybe the Serpents aren't the issue here ? Either way, you are correct, wh40k is not balanced, and the DE are rather weak compared to ALL armies. http://www.torrentoffire.com/4789/6th-edition-retrospective-reign-of-the-xenos


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 SHUPPET wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Currently eldar steam roll DE. It sucks but we just need to hang tight until fall when we allegedly get our update. I'm praying they add some tools when they do, though odds are it will always be a rough fight. What we need is MUCH more open availability for haywire blasters, its a very fluffy weapon that suits us, it just needs assault 2 and as I said, better access and I think we shimmy up the poll quite a bit.

So because you're incapable of dealing with one or two vehicles, your army should have completely OP weapons ? ... definitely bro.

Good post!

You have completely ignored the fact that DE is a glass cannon army that is the easiest to kill and completely underpowered in this aspect, and as such to balance this NEEDS to have Overpowered weaponry or else they are just "glass, with regular shooting."

Have you looked at the dex? It's a T3 army with AV10 FA on all but two Vehicles who were lucky enough to get AV 11. (no serpent shields FYI)

That means the transports die to bolter fire.

The army has a Haywire Blaster. It's a balanced gun that fires only a single Haywire shot, but can only be taken on 2 different units in the army.


One of the units that can take it cost 22 PPM (before factoring in gun price) for a T3 model with a 4+ save. AKA Pathfinder resilience. Except they don't get Markerlights. On a minimum 5 man squad, it can be purchased twice. And then none of the other weapons can be touched, leaving it with 9 wasted Shardcarbine shots everytime it uses its Blasters as poison does not affect Vehicles. 130 pts for 2 shots, carried by 5 deepstriking Pathfinders, 3 of which don't get to shoot. Absolutely useless.


The other units that can take it is a 100 pt 3 wound MC who alone takes up a crucial HS support. He gets 1 haywire shot if you choose to replace his other, better weapon, and nothing else.


The gun is balanced, the poster you quoted was merely asking for more availability for it amongst the army. Next time you enter a thread in this catergory, I'd suggest familiarizing yourself with the army before making comments about it and looking foolish.



But let me guess, you're the type of player who brings Superheavies to a 1500 pt game and thinks Haywire is just OP bs amirite

I don't have any of the OP units in the new Eldar dex (jet Council+baron, Wraithknight I hear), and Haywire is OP bs. Because it doesn't cost much and it does insane damage to vehicles, which are already too fragile in this edition (Termagants took down two of my wave serpents in assault. see how OP those Serpents are ?).

You are right, there are a lot of issues with your DE codex, they should not be fixed with a broken OP weapon made available for everyone in that dex only, they should be fixed by not being broken, i.e. fixing point costs, buffing stuff left and right.

Not introducing more bugged Haywire gear.

Haywire is bs, it's automatic AV weapon without any of the AV rules, I'd much rather have Vehicles more vulnerable to high S low AP fire than have them vulnerable to bs weapons and grenades that automagically deal damage to vehicles, even when wielded by a smelly grot.

The fact that you even mention that it can hurt Superheavies is proof that it's completely imbalanced and should be kept to a minimum.