Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Has anyone tried out an AM all vehicle list yet? How did it work out? Advantages/disadvantages? I havent been able to play yet because i am currently deplolyed, but was just wondering what peoples thoughts were.

Thanks,

Nash

I assume you mean IG but your avatar look AdMech. Which do you mean.

IG/AM just calling them by the new book name... And my avatar is for my rate in the Coast Guard. Im wondering about lots of Leman Russ tanks, chimeras, wyverns ect ect rather than mass troops on the ground.

In this edition, I'd imagine it would work quite well.

There's an interesting choice between a CCS or a Tank Commander/Pask Russ Squadron for HQ, because the former gives your mobile Vet squads with triple special weapons huge buffs if you get an order off when they reach the enemy - ignores cover, shooting then running behind the parent vehicle, monster/tank hunter are all excellent and flexible, plus you can give the CCS its own selection of special weapons and take an Astropath with Psychic Shriek that can brutalise any non-vehicle unit if it rolls well. (I shaved 5/6 wounds off a Wraithknight using him once)

Nork Deddog in a CCS is an interesting model that gives a bit of CC counter punch, character assassin ability (anything with T4, a 3+ save or worse that can't kill him a single round is in serious danger of being headbutted in oblivion) and durability for the CCS once its transport gets popped. If you play highly competitively, probably not that efficient, but otherwise, a great model centerpiece.

The Tank Commander is more likely to make his points, as the CCS may have its Chimera popped, may be sniped out, or may prove not useful. Pask in particular gives you an extremely powerful unit in terms of firepower; he makes Executioners far more reliable if he is your Warlord due to preferred enemy giving you get's hot re-rolls, and in a Punisher he puts out 20 accurate, S5 shots that rend on 6's and re-roll failed to hit and wound rolls of a 1, which is insane - the Pask Punisher can even take on most tanks because of rending. The Vanquisher is a good choice for Pask as well because he gives you a reliable tank hunter/'MC wound shaver that can do its job from 72'' away- the Punisher's AT ability is limited to within 24'', which is pretty dangerous for the Russes.

For Troops, Mech Vets with 3 specials are obviously what you're taking. Mech Platoons are a bit of a joke put alongside them in comparison because there's only a 1 point difference per model, and the triple specials are very significant. The choice between Taurox/Chimera is an iffy one. Because I usually deploy my mechanised infantry behind my Russes, where the tank can't even shoot, the extra firepower of the Chimera isn't really justified- the greater mobility of the Taurox may be better, as you can plow through cover into an objective more reliably.

For Elites, you may or may not want to try mechanised Scions in a Taurox Prime (if you're utterly opposed to the model, build your own) where you can get a TL Gatling and TL HSVG that puts out 14 TL S4 BS4 shots, 4 of which are AP3. If you run them behind the Russes for cover until they get within the sweet spot, they'll last the battle. The Scions themselves can be put in reserve and deepstrike with double melta for board control and alpha-strikes against nasty units.

Also, Ogryns/Bullgryns may appeal to you. For 220 points you can fit a trio of Ogryns and a Ministorum Priest in a Chimera; the Priest being mandatory because Ogryns are cowardly babies and getting the CC buffs of re-rolls to hit in the first round of combat and potentially re-rolls to wound on a 50:50 chance is great for 25 points. The group can disgorge near the front lines and discourage any enemy melee units from getting too close, tarpit infantry in a combat they can't win easily due to the T5 of the Ogryns, and generally be a nuisance.

Bullgryns can take Slab Shields and deploy, though expensively, in front of your Leman Russ tank line and give all of them 4+ cover saves - basically, 50% of all fire against them is going to get ignored. The value of this ability is for you to decide - the unit itself will probably come to 200 points or more. Some people may claim, "just buy another tank", but I'd expect in some match ups that this unit would save at least 2 over the course of the game.

For Fast Attack, Vendettas are a good choice that'll make you less scorned than with last edition, providing great AA/ anti-MC and anti-tank. Sentinels are good for supporting the mechanised advance by being a nuisance - blocking off enemy units, tarpitting them in close combat, providing cover for the tanks by obstructing them, and putting out a bit of extra heavy firepower. Hellhounds are a good, reliable way of flushing out infantry, though there is doubt due to it being basically the same cost as the Leman Russ Eradicator - though in this sort of list, you will probably not have spare HS slots, possibly making Hellhounds more practical.

For Heavy Support, Russes are the obvious candidate, and the best variants are probably as follows:

Exterminator with Plasma Cannon sponsons, Lascannon
Executioner barebones
Eradicator, HB sponsons

For the others, either they're too inflexible, too expensive, too hard to justify or they only really work efficiently if they're in a Tank Commander's squadron. The eradicator is the 10 tonne elephant in this list because its absurdly cheap and potentially extremely useful.

Wyverns are best fielded in a squadron of 3, and can wipe an infantry unit out of existence that way, though AV12 means you have to hide them from your opponent's AT for them to not pop like flies under focused fire.

Hydras are a matter where most people are sore they got nerfed and aren't willing to consider they're still decent. Frankly, Vendettas are an extremely expensive means of dealing with AA now. 2-3 Hydras in a squadron is a solution for AA, and comes to 150-225 points; they also work considerably well against Wave Serpents and all skimmers, as they also hit them at BS3 (re-read the skyfire rule) while a pair of Vendettas comes to a painful 340 points, leaving your gunline without anything up to a fifth or third of its firepower not coming until at least turn 2.

Deathstrike Missile Launchers are quite interesting - because you're playing aggressively, the usual issue of not being able to fire because the enemy is too close to your lines is less likely to be a problem, because your front line can wipe away anything that gets too close easier, or run/flat out backwards before impact, a virtue you don't get on your board edge. Against multi-wound infantry, tanks and any infantry blob or entrenched infantry groups, like other IG, Firewarriors, SM variant Devastators, etc they are outrageously powerful, wiping the lot off with basically 2's in a large area.

However, investment in a Primaris Psyker with each Deathstrike should basically be considered mandatory because you really do not want your entire investment to be wasted if you roll really bad - the PP can give it prescience each turn, though may or may not work if your opponent has a lot of Psykers - though taking Pskers in itself is also a good idea for building up Warp Charge dice you can use to possibly cancel out their attempts to ram through psychic powers.

The Manticore is not easy to justify at 170 points, especially given the rise of the Wyvern, and especially since its no longer any decent at lucking out and getting a S10 penetrating hit on anything that then results in an explodes result, due to its AP4 and the changes to the vehicle damage chart.

One interesting thing here is that with a Tech Priest Enginseer, you can fire 2 missiles with a Manticore in a single turn using its power of the machine spirit confer ability. This could make for a pretty powerful alpha-strike on a good day, though by this point you are paying more than an entire battery of Wyverns...

Basilisks are doubtful and not that appealing - as with the Manticore, they're now pretty garbage at anti-tank due to not having the required AP to cause explodes results, and it could be argued a pair of Wyverns would be more efficient and reliable. Its an iffy one that will probably come down to personal preference.

Summary:

I'd play this sort of list with a line of Leman Russ Tanks, and your mechanised infantry behind each one so they can't be targeted and de-mechanised early in the game. Annihilate your opponent with 1-2 turns of firepower, then move the line forward and take each objective, or deploy the mechanised infantry if the enemy gets too close in a counter-attack manoeuvre.

With Wyverns and artillery, you can pound basically any infantry into dust from behind cover at your end of the board, forcing your opponent to action, or putting your opponent at the mercy of them all game.

Because the things your opponent can shoot at are basically entirely AV14, or with massive cover saves, the structure of the list is reliable and durable. Hydras/Vendettas will be on personal preference, I'd prefer the Hydras myself because of the cheapness and anti-Eldar skimmer boons, meaning I can take more Tanks and worry less about Eldar skimmers being a pain in the ass.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
One interesting thing here is that with a Tech Priest Enginseer, you can fire 2 missiles with a Manticore in a single turn using its power of the machine spirit confer ability.

This doesn't work. POTMS doesn't allow you to fire the same weapon more than once; the storm eagle rockets are a single weapon and not four separate ones.

Thanks for the great write up Mr.Omega!

I run my Am as an all mech list. In an 1850 point game my list usually looks like this(not actually looking at my list so i may be leaving something out)

HQ
Pask in Punisher
Plasmacutioner
Plasmacutioner

TROOP
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta
Vendetta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Demolisher
Demolisher
3x Wyvern Squad

I have a ton of fun running this list. I do quite well with it as well. With the new unbound rules I am debating taking out the troops for more tanks but I have grown quite fond of the multi-lasers that the Chimeras are equipped with. You do not get the 72"+ engage that some of the AM vehicles come with but after you learn how to maneuver for shorter range weapons it becomes less of a problem.

Druid13 wrote:
I run my Am as an all mech list. In an 1850 point game my list usually looks like this(not actually looking at my list so i may be leaving something out)

HQ
Pask in Punisher
Plasmacutioner
Plasmacutioner

TROOP
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta
Vendetta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Demolisher
Demolisher
3x Wyvern Squad

I have a ton of fun running this list. I do quite well with it as well. With the new unbound rules I am debating taking out the troops for more tanks but I have grown quite fond of the multi-lasers that the Chimeras are equipped with. You do not get the 72"+ engage that some of the AM vehicles come with but after you learn how to maneuver for shorter range weapons it becomes less of a problem.

When you say Vanilla Vets, do you mean no upgrades? If so, that's a lot of wasted bs 4......

 alarmingrick wrote:

Druid13 wrote:
I run my Am as an all mech list. In an 1850 point game my list usually looks like this(not actually looking at my list so i may be leaving something out)

HQ
Pask in Punisher
Plasmacutioner
Plasmacutioner

TROOP
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta
Vendetta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Demolisher
Demolisher
3x Wyvern Squad

I have a ton of fun running this list. I do quite well with it as well. With the new unbound rules I am debating taking out the troops for more tanks but I have grown quite fond of the multi-lasers that the Chimeras are equipped with. You do not get the 72"+ engage that some of the AM vehicles come with but after you learn how to maneuver for shorter range weapons it becomes less of a problem.

When you say Vanilla Vets, do you mean no upgrades? If so, that's a lot of wasted bs 4......

Yeah i would also think you would want to give them at least two special weapons to run around with.

You could go with a platoon instead of 3 vet squads and throw 50 points worth of special and heavy weps around - plus basic orders. Infantry squads are just as good for running skirmish screens. Plus heavy weps snap fire out of moving chimmys BS 3 or 4.

The big problem is that the medium vehicles are too easy to kill through HP loss (and especially assault).

Now if you want to run an IA armored battlegroup or an unbound leman russ tank list, with lots of AV14, it'll do great against most opponents as long as you can keep stuff from getting stuck in.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big problem is that the medium vehicles are too easy to kill through HP loss (and especially assault).

Now if you want to run an IA armored battlegroup or an unbound leman russ tank list, with lots of AV14, it'll do great against most opponents as long as you can keep stuff from getting stuck in.

Which is why you put Leman Russ tanks in front of them so this becomes effectively a non issue. For Wyverns they can deploy out of LOS or behind hard cover for obstruction cover saves at worst - failing that, if your meta really sucks for cover, buy a 50 pt ADL.

And unless you're using Demolishers or Punisher LRs (eh, only Pask really shines in the form of the latter and even then I'm on the fence about it, honestly I think he's best in an Executioner so long as he's the Warlord) you're at a safe distance from assaulty armies to begin with where you can pelt them with fire for several turns.

I don't even understand how AV12 survivability is even an issue, but assuming you mean the meta's top 2 AV12 killers, I'm not even that concerned because HYMP Broadsides can be annihilated by Executioners with Lascannons (I actually said barebones Executioners above, but I find the hull Lascannon to be very useful for that doubling out T4 on occassion now and last ditch AT/extra anti-MC, especially given they're half the cost of infantry LC teams) and various other things in combination or not, and Wave Serpents that fire off the shield are now no harder to kill than a Chimera unless they ruin their firepower output as well by jinking - if you get them to do that, threat neutralised for a turn basically anyway.

So for these reasons I fail to see how you can write off this list archetype almost completely as is the implication in your second sentence here.

 Mr.Omega wrote:



Which is why you put Leman Russ tanks in front of them so this becomes effectively a non issue.

And now your big expensive tanks are the ones that are going to be easiest to assault (where they're just as easy to kill as anything else) and are most vulnerable to things like DS'ing meltas and the like, while your units behind hope the enemy can't draw any LoS to them or they're only getting a 5+ intervening unit cover save.

For Wyverns they can deploy out of LOS or behind hard cover for obstruction cover saves at worst - failing that, if your meta really sucks for cover, buy a 50 pt ADL.

Not everything can ignore LoS. Wyverns are the big exception here, they're absurdly cheap, don't need to move, and don't need LoS. No other platform shares these three traits. ADL's are a great option, but only extend so far. You also technically now *need* the Stronghold Assault book for ADL's as they aren't included in the base rulebook.

And unless you're using Demolishers or Punisher LRs (eh, only Pask really shines in the form of the latter and even then I'm on the fence about it, honestly I think he's best in an Executioner so long as he's the Warlord) you're at a safe distance from assaulty armies to begin with where you can pelt them with fire for several turns.

For some armies this is true. Most MEQ armies won't get stuck in until turn 3. For others, not so much. My last game against a Necron opponent saw almost my entire line engaged on turn 2 between Scarabs swarms and a a couple Arks with some Scythe lords in them, I got one round of shooting before more than half my vehicles were dead. You face a similar situation against say, a White Scars army. Assault is not dead unless you're trying to do so with footslogging infantry or footslogging infantry in closed topped transports. Wraiths, bikes, open topped transports, scarabs, jetbikes, cavalry, etc work very well indeed, particularly against vehicles that they always hit on 3's and only need to meet AV10 three times.

I don't even understand how AV12 survivability is even an issue

Because AV12 in and of itself isn't particularly sturdy? Especially without the Skimmer type attached.

but assuming you mean the meta's top 2 AV12 killers

I'm just talking about in general, to hell with wave serpents and broadsides, it's not particularly hard for large numbers of multishot weapons, often Twin Linked ones, to chip off HP's very quickly. As a result of the HP mechanic in general, AV12 just is not particularly sturdy. (*skimmers able to sport 3+ cover saves in the open being an obvious exception*)

So for these reasons I fail to see how you can write off this list archetype almost completely as is the implication in your second sentence here.

Where did I say I wrote it off completely? I pointed out a problem with them. I didn't say they couldn't play at all, just that they had a glaring notable issue.

 alarmingrick wrote:

Druid13 wrote:
I run my Am as an all mech list. In an 1850 point game my list usually looks like this(not actually looking at my list so i may be leaving something out)

HQ
Pask in Punisher
Plasmacutioner
Plasmacutioner

TROOP
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera
Veterans(vanilla) in Chimera

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta
Vendetta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Demolisher
Demolisher
3x Wyvern Squad

I have a ton of fun running this list. I do quite well with it as well. With the new unbound rules I am debating taking out the troops for more tanks but I have grown quite fond of the multi-lasers that the Chimeras are equipped with. You do not get the 72"+ engage that some of the AM vehicles come with but after you learn how to maneuver for shorter range weapons it becomes less of a problem.

When you say Vanilla Vets, do you mean no upgrades? If so, that's a lot of wasted bs 4......

Correct I run my vet squads with no heavy/special weapons. And yes, to some degree it is wasting the BS4. To me it is justified first because I needed troops in 6th for objectives and veterans in a chimera(125pts) are cheaper in points than taking an infantry platoon with chimeras(325 points ?) So there is more room for heavy armor while still maintaining the ability to score. In 7th that is no so much of a problem so more often than not the troops are assigned to bubble wrap tanks to help buffer DS units or keep assault units away from armor.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:



Which is why you put Leman Russ tanks in front of them so this becomes effectively a non issue.

And now your big expensive tanks are the ones that are going to be easiest to assault

I can barely remember less than a handful of times my Russes have ever been assaulted and killed, and I'm pretty sure none of those occassions were through use of the Russ/Chimera tag-team. Maybe once in this game where an Ork Warboss had the favourable result in his Trukk that moved it forward on death and disgorged him in front of the tank, but that game was a landslide victory.

and are most vulnerable to things like DS'ing meltas

At which point I reserve my Russes and elect to play defensively, blowing off the DS Melta teams in a single turn. That's not even half of an extreme scenario as the proposition that I wouldn't see an assault rush/melta alpha strike coming and not adapt to it, in itself.

Besides, if they have deepstriking meltaguns, that means they're probably using Imperial equipment where massed light AT capable of massacring Chimeras isn't exactly common, even leafblower Autocannon lists are dead. [/color]

and the like, while your units behind hope the enemy can't draw any LoS to them

Take a Russ and a Chimera right now, and place the latter behind the former, looking at them from the front. You cannot, or it is at least very difficult to see the Chimera, hence they cannot target it. If you're outnumbered and facing fire from multiple sources and places, you angle it further up one end of the board.

or they're only getting a 5+ intervening unit cover save.

Wrong on a second account here. Even if they can see the Chimera, the formation assembled properly should give them a 4+ cover save at worst or even a 3+.

For Wyverns they can deploy out of LOS or behind hard cover for obstruction cover saves at worst - failing that, if your meta really sucks for cover, buy a 50 pt ADL.

Not everything can ignore LoS.

Wyverns are the big exception here, they're absurdly cheap, don't need to move, and don't need LoS. No other platform shares these three traits. ADL's are a great option, but only extend so far. You also technically now *need* the Stronghold Assault book for ADL's as they aren't included in the base rulebook.

Hydras and Armoured Sentinels are the only other combat vehicles that aren't artillery anyway that need LOS to be effective, but both are exceedingly cheap and both can pop out of LOS blocking terrain and then retaliate if your opponent has the first turn.

And unless you're using Demolishers or Punisher LRs (eh, only Pask really shines in the form of the latter and even then I'm on the fence about it, honestly I think he's best in an Executioner so long as he's the Warlord) you're at a safe distance from assaulty armies to begin with where you can pelt them with fire for several turns.

For some armies this is true. Most MEQ armies won't get stuck in until turn 3. For others, not so much. My last game against a Necron opponent saw almost my entire line engaged on turn 2 between Scarabs swarms and a a couple Arks with some Scythe lords in them, I got one round of shooting before more than half my vehicles were dead.

Well then there was obviously a flaw in your strategy, yet you're blaming your list and list archetype

There are at least three or so ways I would attempt mitigate a Scarab Rush and in your face lists like this.

A) I wasn't there, but reserving some of my force for reactionary intervention could have been useful.

B) The second part of my Russ/Chimera tagteam's strategy is that when units get danger-close to the Russes, the Russes fold out to the side, and the Chimeras pop through the middle, disgorging the Vets right into the face of whatever is coming towards the formation up close. At worst, you're tarpitting them for an additional turn, during which time my Executioners would have massacred several more Scarab bases due to doubling out, multiple blasts and I could be wrong, but I believe there's also a special rule that makes swarms vulnerable to blasts.

Adaptable for moving the Russes backwards while the Vets go forward, before you nitpick out of context.

C) Hell, depending on cover density, deploying the Vets out of the Chimeras in deployment and having them blanket could have worked.

Or alternatively, splitting your force, (possibly eschewing the tag-team formation) in two so you have tanks and mechanised infantry on the left and the right of the board with as clear fire lanes as possible between them; unless he succeeds in beating both groups, one of the AM groups will turn and pelt the victorious enemy group on the other side.

Just some examples. There's always a strategy worth trying.


You face a similar situation against say, a White Scars army.

Chimera Vet roadblock, Vet bubblewrap, reserving the tanks, divide & conquer strategy above, etc, there's a way.

I once had my buddy bet me that playing a drop pod Iron Hands army with my ABG would be an effective auto-lose, but I had a Manticore run up one side of the mostly empty board while a Leman Russ Exterminator ran up the other (well actually about 15'' for the LR and about 20-24~'' for the Manticore, both away from the main force) He sent an Ironclad Dread to deal with the former and that got vanquisher'd. He didn't even bother with the Exterminator, which pelted his infantry all game. I easily made a 6'' anti-melta 2D6 pen bubble using cheapo Scout Sentinels, and everything to the sides of the tanks was blocked as well by other models. I went on to lose that game having lost only the Manticore, the Sentinels and a handful of infantry over 5-6 turns.

Assault is not dead unless you're trying to do so with footslogging infantry or footslogging infantry in closed topped transports. Wraiths, bikes, open topped transports, scarabs, jetbikes, cavalry, etc work very well indeed, particularly against vehicles that they always hit on 3's and only need to meet AV10 three times.

The only real new thing here is open topped transports, and to that I laugh. After I detonate each one, the contents of each transport becomes clumped together tightly, possibly even pinned, ideal for being S7 AP2 blasted into oblivion.

I don't even understand how AV12 survivability is even an issue

Because AV12 in and of itself isn't particularly sturdy? Especially without the Skimmer type attached.

You're reiterating your point without evidence. The only relevance "skimmer" has any more to ballistic defence is the fact that eschewing all decent levels of firepower for a turn you increase your chances of survival, which effectively means that if you threaten the skimmer you're putting it out of effective action most of the time for a turn anyway./color]

but assuming you mean the meta's top 2 AV12 killers

I'm just talking about in general, to hell with wave serpents and broadsides, it's not particularly hard for large numbers of multishot weapons, often Twin Linked ones, to chip off HP's very quickly.

[color=red]True, but I didn't need you to tell me my lighter tanks will die; not that I see them dying early in the game, anyway. Citation needed on where this reaches the level where all or most of a considerable group of Chimeras would getting massacred in a list that is genuinely practical and not extremely specific.

As a result of the HP mechanic in general, AV12 just is not particularly sturdy. (*skimmers able to sport 3+ cover saves in the open being an obvious exception*)

Skimmers that do so have to snapfire and drastically reduce their firepower.

So for these reasons I fail to see how you can write off this list archetype almost completely as is the implication in your second sentence here.

Where did I say I wrote it off completely? I pointed out a problem with them. I didn't say they couldn't play at all, just that they had a glaring notable issue.

The implication was there, as you said a large negative for mixed armour and then went on to say massed AV14 was "great."

I even have a geniune example of use, from my first game with the tag-team no less:



This was taken in the middle of the shooting phase, (in context this was 6th, back in December, though the principle hasn't changed) iirc just after the Vets and the Executioners had shaved 4/6 wounds off the Wraithknight, a combination of my Vendetta pair and backboard fire reserves then finished it off, eliminating the threat of it charging the tanks.

Tauroxes would work really well transporting vets behind Russes. They are cheaper and have a smaller footprint, making them easier to keep out of sight. They also get a few extra inches when disembarking. If you take a command squad, give it a Chimera. They get to issue orders still and are a less inviting target than Tauroxes. keeping your orders alive a bit longer.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
One interesting thing here is that with a Tech Priest Enginseer, you can fire 2 missiles with a Manticore in a single turn using its power of the machine spirit confer ability.

This doesn't work. POTMS doesn't allow you to fire the same weapon more than once; the storm eagle rockets are a single weapon and not four separate ones.

Correct, but for the wrong reason. The new 'AM' Manticore does indeed have four separate weapons ('Storm Eagle Rockets'), but they are for the purposes of Weapon Destroyed results only. Furthermore, the unit entry specifically notes that only a single rocket can be fired a turn, regardless of what PotMS might be able to convey.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
The new 'AM' Manticore does indeed have four separate weapons ('Storm Eagle Rockets'), but they are for the purposes of Weapon Destroyed results only.

Technically it is a single weapon, which is treated as four for destroyed results. It is still a single weapon for all other purposes.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


I can barely remember less than a handful of times my Russes have ever been assaulted and killed, and I'm pretty sure none of those occassions were through use of the Russ/Chimera tag-team. Maybe once in this game where an Ork Warboss had the favourable result in his Trukk that moved it forward on death and disgorged him in front of the tank, but that game was a landslide victory.

Do fast transports, bikes, jetbikes, cavalry and jump infantry just not exist where you play? I mean, there's a lot of things that will routinely get stuck in turn 2, or turn 1 if going 2nd and you advance.

At which point I reserve my Russes and elect to play defensively, blowing off the DS Melta teams in a single turn.

And then the rest of your armor is gone or crippled, and you may or may not wipe all the meltaguns that are now sitting in your deployment zone. It *can* sometimes work, but then you're previous strategy for protecting your lighter armor goes out the window.

Besides, if they have deepstriking meltaguns, that means they're probably using Imperial equipment where massed light AT capable of massacring Chimeras isn't exactly common, even leafblower Autocannon lists are dead.

Dreads, Hydras, LRE's, Predators, HWS's, Sabre platforms, etc?

Alternatively, Tau can toss out huge numbers of S7 shots and also have lots of deep striking melta.

Take a Russ and a Chimera right now, and place the latter behind the former, looking at them from the front. You cannot, or it is at least very difficult to see the Chimera, hence they cannot target it. If you're outnumbered and facing fire from multiple sources and places, you angle it further up one end of the board.

That's straight ass-to-nose, and depends a lot on angle and what terrain and/or other spacing may force you to do. If they're even a bit to the side, a Chimera turret is completely visible behind a Russ, knocking that down to a 5+ since you will then be able to see the turret front.

Wrong on a second account here. Even if they can see the Chimera, the formation assembled properly should give them a 4+ cover save at worst or even a 3+.

Again, depends on what they can see. With a 15*-20* offset then that no longer works as the Chimeras turret becomes visible and they've got LoS to frontal armor again. It's not as foolproof as you're making it out to be.

Hydras and Armoured Sentinels are the only other combat vehicles that aren't artillery anyway that need LOS to be effective, but both are exceedingly cheap and both can pop out of LOS blocking terrain and then retaliate if your opponent has the first turn.

Hellhounds and variants? Chimeras that may want to shoot? Medusa's if you're running with FW stuff?

Well then there was obviously a flaw in your strategy, yet you're blaming your list and list archetype

Ah yes, the "L2P" response. Great.

There are at least three or so ways I would attempt mitigate a Scarab Rush and in your face lists like this.

I've got to ask, have you really faced a Necron list like that before? With multiple ghost arks carrying Scythe lords and multiple large scarab units getting fed (and pushed forward) by Spyders?

A) I wasn't there, but reserving some of my force for reactionary intervention could have been useful.

Depending on what you're reserving it can be helpful. But if the opponent is going first and you're relying on Blast weapons that gets awkward to place and draw LoS to real fast once they're stuck in.

B) The second part of my Russ/Chimera tagteam's strategy is that when units get danger-close to the Russes

(read: turn 2 in this example, if you went 2nd, this all goes out the window)

the Russes fold out to the side, and the Chimeras pop through the middle, disgorging the Vets right into the face of whatever is coming towards the formation up close. At worst, you're tarpitting them for an additional turn

Assuming they can't get around the body-blocking infantry and/or don't have another way to engage the infantry to clear the way.

during which time my Executioners would have massacred several more Scarab bases due to doubling out, multiple blasts and I could be wrong, but I believe there's also a special rule that makes swarms vulnerable to blasts.

No longer works like that. Double wounds and ID no longer stacks. Scarabs can also space out well enough that you may be lucky to hit two bases with any single blast.

C) Hell, depending on cover density, deploying the Vets out of the Chimeras in deployment and having them blanket could have worked.

That's probably the best way to do it honestly, having them body block ahead and hope your opponent spends more time trying to take down what armor they can rather than clearing the way for the scarabs/scythes.

Or alternatively, splitting your force, (possibly eschewing the tag-team formation) in two so you have tanks and mechanised infantry on the left and the right of the board with as clear fire lanes as possible between them; unless he succeeds in beating both groups, one of the AM groups will turn and pelt the victorious enemy group on the other side.

And again, going back to the original premise, this leaves the AV12 armor without any effective damage mitigation.

The only real new thing here is open topped transports, and to that I laugh. After I detonate each one, the contents of each transport becomes clumped together tightly, possibly even pinned, ideal for being S7 AP2 blasted into oblivion.

That's assuming you detonate each one. Not all open topped transports are AV10 and you won't explode each one either, many you will HP to death, and they get their 6" spread. When faced with multiple AV13 Ghost Arks transporting Warscythes in addition to huge swarms of Scarabs, where do you put those blasts?

You're reiterating your point without evidence.

I didn't think it was exactly a controversial statement. That's not exactly a new phenomenon here. 9 S7 hits will average 1 dead AV12 tank. Wanna see how fast something like a Annihilation Barges put out that kind of firepower?

The only relevance "skimmer" has any more to ballistic defence is the fact that eschewing all decent levels of firepower for a turn you increase your chances of survival, which effectively means that if you threaten the skimmer you're putting it out of effective action most of the time for a turn anyway.

Depends entirely what it's armed with and what it's role is. If it's just intent on getting from point A to point B in the safest manner possible, then it's firepower is irrelevant and it's way sturdier than any non-skimmer equivalent. Likewise, a Wave Serpent sporting say, a Scatterlaser, SCannon, and Serpent Shields can Jink for a 3+ cover save in the open and still score an average of 3.2 strength 6/7 hits a turn.

If it's something like an Annihilation Barge, well, it's still landing an average of 3.6 hits out of 4 shots.

Jink can put a major crimp in the style of some skimmers, but many Skimmers are still quite fearsome when Jinking. Tracked tanks get to rely on whatever they can physically hide behind or a one-time 5+ smoke launcher.

True, but I didn't need you to tell me my lighter tanks will die; not that I see them dying early in the game, anyway. Citation needed on where this reaches the level where all or most of a considerable group of Chimeras would getting massacred in a list that is genuinely practical and not extremely specific.

General Tau gunlines? The Necron list I talked about above? Other IG armies?

Skimmers that do so have to snapfire and drastically reduce their firepower.

Yes, but again, there's a lot where their firepower is still quite fearsome or they often wouldn't be firing anyway (they'd be moving Flat Out).

The implication was there, as you said a large negative for mixed armour and then went on to say massed AV14 was "great."

I said it was a problem, something that can be exploited easily by many armies. I didn't say the army wasn't playable, but it's definitely something a lot of armies can easily hammer quickly on.

I even have a geniune example of use, from my first game with the tag-team no less:

Spoiler:

This was taken in the middle of the shooting phase, (in context this was 6th, back in December, though the principle hasn't changed) iirc just after the Vets and the Executioners had shaved 4/6 wounds off the Wraithknight, a combination of my Vendetta pair and backboard fire reserves then finished it off, eliminating the threat of it charging the tanks.

I get that, but that's also a different target than what I'm really talking about. That's a single very large target with 6 wounds that you're concentrating about 4x the points value against...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:


I can barely remember less than a handful of times my Russes have ever been assaulted and killed, and I'm pretty sure none of those occassions were through use of the Russ/Chimera tag-team. Maybe once in this game where an Ork Warboss had the favourable result in his Trukk that moved it forward on death and disgorged him in front of the tank, but that game was a landslide victory.

Do fast transports,

If they're open topped, odds are they're easy to kill. If they're not, I have little reason to be concerned for at least a turn, and can still start reacting now

bikes, jetbikes, cavalry and jump infantry

The only one here even mildly threatening in almost all cases for assault are the Bikes, since Jetbikes generally don't have anti-vehicle grenades. Really, there is no logic in matching hard counters to units if you aren't considering the fact the entire time you're strategising and taking methods to minimise the damage caused by the hard counters.

At which point I reserve my Russes and elect to play defensively, blowing off the DS Melta teams in a single turn.

And then the rest of your armor is gone or crippled,

Rest? In one turn? Regardless, I'm not going to be crying if his "multiple" (deluding ourselves for a moment) 100-200 pt melta suicide squad kills all my chimeras, assuming no deepstrike mishaps or out-of-range scatterings.

and you may or may not wipe all the meltaguns that are now sitting in your deployment zone.

If there's enough there to kill the "rest" of my armour, and they're all 100-200 point units, that now score, they're going to die.

It *can* sometimes work, but then you're previous strategy for protecting your lighter armor goes out the window.

I'm not religiously devoted to it- its a strategy for dealing with a situation, as is this one here.

Besides, if they have deepstriking meltaguns, that means they're probably using Imperial equipment where massed light AT capable of massacring Chimeras isn't exactly common, even leafblower Autocannon lists are dead.

Dreads, Predators,

*Blank stare, followed by an eruption of laughter*

No but seriously Forgefiends/Ranged Dreads/Predators are overcosted garbage

Hydras,

Snapshoot, so are hardly threatening against my AV12 ground vehicles. They're purely supplemental fire that may add an extra hit or two, but they're hardly going to demonstrate why non-flyer AV12 is too weak

LRE's,

Extremely specific, but honestly this is going to be targeting infantry or is just going to be unable to do much at all given the tag-team formation,

HWS's,

BS3 Imperial Heavy Weps are pretty naff to begin with, but honestly the moment the Executioners acquire and target a squad they'll wipe it off the board with laughable ease due to instant death and the fact they need to take terrible LD checks. In platoon blobs, I present the wall of AV14 and he unless he rolls insanely well on the Lascannons, I don't expect to be losing Russes to them easily.

Sabre platforms, etc?

We're struggling, aren't we? Argumentally fallacial, I know, but the odds of coming up against these are exceedingly low because FW costs/rules make people lose their gak, not that I'm opposed to their use. They're in the upper spectrum here of threatening sources of light AT, admittedly, though the only real effect would be any reactionary measures would be less effective.

Alternatively, Tau can toss out huge numbers of S7 shots

At 36'', which coincidently is also the range of Executioner cannons mounted on Executioner tanks they can't scratch the front armour of with the HYMP Broadsides.

and also have lots of deep striking melta.

Not really. Outside of the Farsight Bomb (wherein reserving the tanks becomes a no-brainer) Melta Crisis Suits aren't that common in Tau competitive lists I've seen as a single inclusion to begin with, much less so spammed.

Take a Russ and a Chimera right now, and place the latter behind the former, looking at them from the front. You cannot, or it is at least very difficult to see the Chimera, hence they cannot target it. If you're outnumbered and facing fire from multiple sources and places, you angle it further up one end of the board.

That's straight ass-to-nose, and depends a lot on angle and what terrain and/or other spacing may force you to do.

Time to exercise some of that strategy! You control the angle in deployment, and even with lacking terrain AV14 is still reliable and you can still angle further up one end of the board to make side armour flanking harder. Honestly, tank tactics 101.

If they're even a bit to the side, a Chimera turret is completely visible behind a Russ, knocking that down to a 5+ since you will then be able to see the turret front.

I actually read up on this just for you, and I was actually surprised because apparently GW have sneaked in a change, but not the sort you're thinking of

You need 25% obscurement for a 4+ save, that's what I'm reading in plain text. If you're very, or almost entirely obscured (it specifies, only the side of the tank is seen where the front is obscured, there's a pic) it even says you get +1 to the obscurement save.

Go check it. If they can see the Chimera turret, I don't think there's any doubt that's now a 3+ cover save. Camo netting isn't that expensive either when you consider you can give them 2+ cover saves this way.

Wrong on a second account here. Even if they can see the Chimera, the formation assembled properly should give them a 4+ cover save at worst or even a 3+.

Again, depends on what they can see. With a 15*-20* offset then that no longer works as the Chimeras turret becomes visible and they've got LoS to frontal armor

I'm pretty sure turret doesn't qualify as frontal armour, but nevertheless, its at the very least a 4+.

Hydras and Armoured Sentinels are the only other combat vehicles that aren't artillery anyway that need LOS to be effective, but both are exceedingly cheap and both can pop out of LOS blocking terrain and then retaliate if your opponent has the first turn.

Hellhounds and variants?

I didn't really reccomend them in my large post above, they're not that good, they're overcosted or mediocre and Eradicators are arguably better.

Chimeras that may want to shoot?

Situational depending on the game, I may adapt the formation so the Chimeras can shoot. If there's a clear and present danger to them, obviously I don't care if I lose out on a few mediocre mid strength shots.

Medusa's if you're running with FW stuff?

Not overly interested in them, obviously any AV12 fragility is more of an issue for it as it is expensive too.

Well then there was obviously a flaw in your strategy, yet you're blaming your list and list archetype

Ah yes, the "L2P" response. Great.

If a Tau player rushes his Riptides willy nilly at the enemy, does that make Monstrous Creatures and Riptides bad or weak/easy to kill because they all get tarpitted and die?

Strategy is extremely important and well, unless you're playing Tau (cos feth Tau) its about as significant as your list.

There are at least three or so ways I would attempt mitigate a Scarab Rush and in your face lists like this.

I've got to ask, have you really faced a Necron list like that before? With multiple ghost arks carrying Scythe lords and multiple large scarab units getting fed (and pushed forward) by Spyders?

I've faced scarab rush and lists that work on the same principle, not Ghost Ark mechanised. Scythe Lords I can imagine would be a pain but concentrated fire will bring them down and they're not exactly that mobile out of the Ark.

A) I wasn't there, but reserving some of my force for reactionary intervention could have been useful.

Depending on what you're reserving it can be helpful. But if the opponent is going first and you're relying on Blast weapons that gets awkward to place and draw LoS to real fast once they're stuck in.

B) The second part of my Russ/Chimera tagteam's strategy is that when units get danger-close to the Russes

(read: turn 2 in this example, if you went 2nd, this all goes out the window)

If you literally saw his army deploy and placed them in short enough distance to be hit in two turns there is an issue with your strategy, or you're playing on a 4x4 board. Or your list is flawed and you don't have enough 'dakka, who knows.

the Russes fold out to the side, and the Chimeras pop through the middle, disgorging the Vets right into the face of whatever is coming towards the formation up close. At worst, you're tarpitting them for an additional turn

Assuming they can't get around the body-blocking infantry and/or don't have another way to engage the infantry to clear the way.

Which is why I put the disclaimer containing the word "adaptable" straight after, because if they're capable of jumping over the Vets you could do a more tight or strict bubblewrap for instance. Against standard Bikes, you should be able to create enough extra distance they have to travel by blocking the most direct route, and again, failing that, go for tight bubblewrap.

If they retaliate with fire from another source, you can always go to ground, you'll probably even get 5+ intervening cover base from his own models if they're that close.

during which time my Executioners would have massacred several more Scarab bases due to doubling out, multiple blasts and I could be wrong, but I believe there's also a special rule that makes swarms vulnerable to blasts.

No longer works like that. Double wounds and ID no longer stacks. Scarabs can also space out well enough that you may be lucky to hit two bases with any single blast.

The point is as the IG you should have enough firepower to kill a unit that is effectively as easy to kill as Guardsmen with S6+ weaponry iirc. Get more and bigger guns, you shouldn't exactly be struggling with that.

C) Hell, depending on cover density, deploying the Vets out of the Chimeras in deployment and having them blanket could have worked.

That's probably the best way to do it honestly, having them body block ahead and hope your opponent spends more time trying to take down what armor they can rather than clearing the way for the scarabs/scythes.

Or alternatively, splitting your force, (possibly eschewing the tag-team formation) in two so you have tanks and mechanised infantry on the left and the right of the board with as clear fire lanes as possible between them; unless he succeeds in beating both groups, one of the AM groups will turn and pelt the victorious enemy group on the other side.

And again, going back to the original premise, this leaves the AV12 armor without any effective damage mitigation.

The main threat as you describe it was the assaulting Scythe Lords and Scarabs that were mobile; if damage mitigation is even a consistent issue you can invest in camo-netting.

The only real new thing here is open topped transports, and to that I laugh. After I detonate each one, the contents of each transport becomes clumped together tightly, possibly even pinned, ideal for being S7 AP2 blasted into oblivion.

That's assuming you detonate each one. Not all open topped transports are AV10 and you won't explode each one either, many you will HP to death, and they get their 6" spread. When faced with multiple AV13 Ghost Arks transporting Warscythes in addition to huge swarms of Scarabs, where do you put those blasts?

On whatever presents the most immediate threat, determined by distance/ability to inhibit charging with reactionary measures. I could have sent 2-3 Melta Vet squads forward out from the formation, disembarking 2-3 squads in 2 rank lines behind their Chimeras, which would have turned 90 degrees and created a fairly long wall (especially given the 1'' rule) so that even if he pops the Chimeras, he can't pass through because of the Melta Vets behind them, and in doing so he risks the Melta Vets coming forward and popping his vehicles. This buys more time for the Scarabs to be dealt with if they even remain an immediate threat - a Multi-Laser can kill 2-3 as it is.

You're reiterating your point without evidence.

I didn't think it was exactly a controversial statement. That's not exactly a new phenomenon here. 9 S7 hits will average 1 dead AV12 tank. Wanna see how fast something like a Annihilation Barges put out that kind of firepower?

It will probably take at least 2 Annihilation Barges (180 pts) to do 9 S7 hits to a 65 pt Chimera/Wyvern, or at most, probably a 70 point Hydra. And yes, I'm aware of the extra hits rule, but unless your opponent rolls absurdly well that isn't that in its significance. He gets max 3 Annihilation Barges, so what's that, 1.5, maybe 2 dead AV12 a turn, assuming you had a complete brainfart and failed to give either of them 25% obscurement for a 4+ cover?

The only relevance "skimmer" has any more to ballistic defence is the fact that eschewing all decent levels of firepower for a turn you increase your chances of survival, which effectively means that if you threaten the skimmer you're putting it out of effective action most of the time for a turn anyway.

Depends entirely what it's armed with and what it's role is. If it's just intent on getting from point A to point B in the safest manner possible, then it's firepower is irrelevant and it's way sturdier than any non-skimmer equivalent. Likewise, a Wave Serpent sporting say, a Scatterlaser, SCannon, and Serpent Shields can Jink for a 3+ cover save in the open and still score an average of 3.2 strength 6/7 hits a turn.

By your previous logic that means it takes 465 points of jinking Wave Serpents to kill one Chimera, assuming no obscurement at all for the purposes of the non-Serpent Shield, and I'm willing to bet that calculation assumes laserlock definitely goes off, which with 6's isn't guaranteed.

If it's something like an Annihilation Barge, well, it's still landing an average of 3.6 hits out of 4 shots.

Oh, so basically his entire contingent of Annihilation Barges to kill a Chimera?

Jink can put a major crimp in the style of some skimmers, but many Skimmers are still quite fearsome when Jinking.

Citation needed and it can't be the Wave Serpent

Tracked tanks get to rely on whatever they can physically hide behind or a one-time 5+ smoke launcher.

As I discovered in the course of typing this post, hiding behind a rock/wall/angled behind a building for 25% obscurement lets you ignore half of all fire thrown at you with cover saves. If you're getting 75% obscurement, which isn't impossible if you have a high wall or something, you're getting as good a cover save as that jinking Wave Serpent.

True, but I didn't need you to tell me my lighter tanks will die; not that I see them dying early in the game, anyway. Citation needed on where this reaches the level where all or most of a considerable group of Chimeras would getting massacred in a list that is genuinely practical and not extremely specific.

General Tau gunlines? The Necron list I talked about above? Other IG armies?

The general Tau Gunline probably relies heavily on HYMP Broadsides which you don't have to present your Chimeras to on a platter. I have to doubt that Necron list would work as well in an all comers competitive environment, with the IG it wouldn't be that exceptional unless it was a leafblower Autocannon list, which are frankly junk nowadays.

I even have a geniune example of use, from my first game with the tag-team no less:

Spoiler:

This was taken in the middle of the shooting phase, (in context this was 6th, back in December, though the principle hasn't changed) iirc just after the Vets and the Executioners had shaved 4/6 wounds off the Wraithknight, a combination of my Vendetta pair and backboard fire reserves then finished it off, eliminating the threat of it charging the tanks.

I get that, but that's also a different target than what I'm really talking about. That's a single very large target with 6 wounds that you're concentrating about 4x the points value against...

It moves 12'' and kills what it charges, which is basically what you were saying earlier. As for the points efficiency comment that's kind of a moot point when literally everything in 40k requires putting more points into killing something than the something itself costs - earlier you say it takes average 9 S7 hits to kill an AV12 vehicle (without cover) which is 2-3 Annihilation Barges, which, coincidently or not, is up to 4 times the cost of a Wyvern/Chimera/Hydra.