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I made a squad of orks fall back from combat yesterday, and on their turn they regrouped and did their 3" consolidation move. It was enough to get them all within 2" of a battlewagon, and my opponent wanted to hop in and speed off. Thus began the rules argument:

Page....I wanna say 80? Says that to embark in a transport, all you need to do is move (normal move? consolidation move? fallback move? any kind of move?) so that everyone from the squad is within 2" of an access point. Then they get in.

So, RAW that paragraph says that you can consolidate and then get into a vehicle. It also says you can FALL BACK and get in a vehicle while you're still running away, thus becoming fearless and automatically regrouping. Funny how that works. Granted you'd have to be in the exact right position, but you could.


My arguments against:

Regrouping says a unit can MOVE NO FURTHER that turn after regrouping and doing their consolidation move. MY opinion is that embarking is, in itself, a move. If you were to stand next to a tank and get in, your heavy weapons would count as moving even if you didn't go anywhere in the movement phase. You moved! Getting into a vehicle is moving. Therefore, I believe that after consolidating following a regroup (I'm not debating consolidating after assault, as all of this is strictly talking about the movement phase), you cannot then get into a vehicle, as that would be further movement, which you are not allowed to do.

A straw man argument against is that if you can embark after a consolidation following a regroup, then there's actually nothing preventing you, provided the fall back distance works out, from getting into a tank after failing to regroup and falling back at the start of your turn. Since models have to go around vehicles in their way, it's not that hard to park a tank a turn early and make the fastest runners have to go around while the slowest ones end up in front of the door.




My opponent also, after getting in, said that the tank could move since it didn't move before they embarked.

Alright, according to transport rules that works. But since regrouping says they can move no further, couldn't the tank not move?

Argument for: Moving the tank moves the unit. It puts it from one spot on the board to another, ergo the unit is moving.

Argument against: The unit is no longer on the table and isn't doing anything. The tank is moving. The fact that the squad can't move doesn't prevent the tank from moving.


What do you think, dakka?

Read the very first sentence of "Embarking and Disembarking" in the Transport rules, it has your answer.

Also the very first sentence of "Embarking" just after the "Embarking and Disembarking" section will answer your question as well.

Page numbers in the Index.

That doesn't answer the question at all. I know we're in the movement phase. I know you can't consolidate after combat and get in.

The question was, if you regroup, can you use the 3" consolidation move from regrouping to embark in a transport? The rules don't seem to forbid you doing it, but if they allow that, they'll also allow falling back into a transport.

I'd agree you can regroup and enter the vehicle.

Can the vehicle move further? That could go either way, but I'd agree with you that it probably shouldn't. As the results of transports can have an effect on passengers even if they disembark, I'd assume the opposite would be true.

So then falling back and hopping in a tank is also acceptable?

 Spellbound wrote:
So then falling back and hopping in a tank is also acceptable?

Yes. And as I am reading transport movement, the transport would then be able to move. I'll keep reading until I find something stating that it cannot.

 Spellbound wrote:
So then falling back and hopping in a tank is also acceptable?

Theoretically sure, if they can meet the requirement to embark. But as all models should be falling back in a straight line towards the table edge, the odds of them getting the right roll on the 2d6 to put them all within 2" of a access point are really slim.

Depends on the size of the unit and the kind of transport. A large transport with lots of room like a landraider or something open-topped like a battlewagon has a LOT of space on the board that it can cover. I'd bet that if a unit started with everyone within 4" or so, you would be fine with any fall back move of 10" or less, when you consider some models having to actually walk around the tank, losing direct backward movement to do it.

 Spellbound wrote:
Depends on the size of the unit and the kind of transport. A large transport with lots of room like a landraider or something open-topped like a battlewagon has a LOT of space on the board that it can cover. I'd bet that if a unit started with everyone within 4" or so, you would be fine with any fall back move of 10" or less, when you consider some models having to actually walk around the tank, losing direct backward movement to do it.

Ok, it could actually be easier than I thought. you could move the transport first, then roll to regroup the unit falling back.

 Spellbound wrote:
That doesn't answer the question at all. I know we're in the movement phase. I know you can't consolidate after combat and get in.

The question was, if you regroup, can you use the 3" consolidation move from regrouping to embark in a transport? The rules don't seem to forbid you doing it, but if they allow that, they'll also allow falling back into a transport.

It answered it just fine.

Was the consolidation move in the movement phase? were all of the models in the unit within 2 inches of an access point? If yes to both you can embark, as the rules I pointed to tell us.

It's kind of weird. Since normally you must move each model towards the access point so they are all within 2" of the access point. If you discover that a model can't make it then you don't embark.

I would really RAW this kind of scenario and argue that you must be able to move in order to embark. It isn't enough to simply be within range of it, but I'm really unsure about it since obviously you can interpret the regroup move as movement...

I like the idea of being able to flee into the back of a vehicle, fluff-wise. I would like to play it where you can regroup and fall-back into a transport, but I wouldn't want to try to spring that on an opponent who may not agree with me. It isn't something I think would occur often enough to want to clarify before every game you play either. So I would likely play it where you cannot do either, just to avoid conflict.

If you state that embarking is in itself a move, then you could not move and then embark ever - as a unit may only move once during each movement phase (barring specific exceptions, like falling back from tank shocks)

Given you are explicitly told you can do so, that argument is in error. As such conolidation move into transport is perfectly fine.

The vehicle is the unit moving, not the unit inside. So again the vehicle can move as normal.

I disagree. I think that in the case of vehicle embarking, embarking in a vehicle allows you to make that "extra move".

However, since regrouping specifically says you may move no further that turn (including running, assaulting, jetbike moves, etc), unlike normal movement which doesn't specify that restriction, I think you can't embark after regrouping.

In either case, you wouldn't be able to move the vehicle in their way before they regrouped, as you test to regroup at the start of the movement phase, before anything else moves. So this is something you have to set up in advance.

 Spellbound wrote:
I disagree. I think that in the case of vehicle embarking, embarking in a vehicle allows you to make that "extra move".

However, since regrouping specifically says you may move no further that turn (including running, assaulting, jetbike moves, etc), unlike normal movement which doesn't specify that restriction, I think you can't embark after regrouping.

In either case, you wouldn't be able to move the vehicle in their way before they regrouped, as you test to regroup at the start of the movement phase, before anything else moves. So this is something you have to set up in advance.

Where does it say the start of the movement phase?

I think the argument to be used here, and i would really like to see someone rule quote why it cannot be done, is:

After completing your Fall Back move (say 2 marines), they are side by side within 1" of a Rhino. What is there to stop them embarking?

Which would lead to "fearless" and a tactic i'd then call "Rhino catching".

RaI and hiwpi most obviously this is wrong, but RaW?

 Spellbound wrote:
I disagree. I think that in the case of vehicle embarking, embarking in a vehicle allows you to make that "extra move".

Disagreement based on any rules? The rules state you can embark, and this does indeed count as moving for the purposes of firing etc, but you are not moving any further. Again, a unit that moved CAN embark a vehicle, and it is not an additional move otherwise they would not be able to do this.

You must find a prohibition on this, page and para.

Spellbound wrote:However, since regrouping specifically says you may move no further that turn (including running, assaulting, jetbike moves, etc), unlike normal movement which doesn't specify that restriction, I think you can't embark after regrouping.

Is embarking listed in the restrictions? No? then you may perform it, as it is not an additional / furher move.

Spellbound wrote:In either case, you wouldn't be able to move the vehicle in their way before they regrouped, as you test to regroup at the start of the movement phase, before anything else moves. So this is something you have to set up in advance.

Rules quote? Last I checked you test for regroup, and if fail you fall back, before you go to move THAT unit. It hasnt been start of turn since, I believe, 4th edition.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rules quote? Last I checked you test for regroup, and if fail you fall back, before you go to move THAT unit. It hasnt been start of turn since, I believe, 4th edition.

So you can test to regroup and Fall back after you've moved every other unit?
I did not know that. Will have to remember it in future.
Knowledge Acquired!

I guess it's not at the start of the movement phase then.

If that's the case, what's to stop me from not bothering?

"Before they move, roll to regroup."

"Nah, I don't want to move them."

Because youre tol d they HAVE to test. Just specifically WHEN during the phase they test is up to you

Before they move. If they don't move, isn't there no before?

I do believe the RaW is that they HAVE to test during the movement phase, whether beginning or end of it, it has to be done

It says a unit must test before it moves.

Enter English language difficulties:

Do I have to test, right before I want to move?

Or do I HAVE to test, and the timing of it happens to be before any movement is done?

English reads both ways.

Movement for that unit. You have to move that unit, as it is falling back so WILL make a fallback move. Prior to making that move you have to test - if you pass you consolidate instead of making that fall back move.

I agree RAI, but technically you could just opt not to move them. Nothing says they have to move, it just says make a test before you move them.

As long as we're being super literal on RAW, then this whole scenario with regrouping and embarking etc. etc. breaks wide open. At some point we're going to have to go to RAI, and I don't think you're supposed to be allowed to hop in a tank and go zooming off after regrouping, unless you're a space marine.

 Spellbound wrote:
I agree RAI, but technically you could just opt not to move them. Nothing says they have to move, it just says make a test before you move them.

As long as we're being super literal on RAW, then this whole scenario with regrouping and embarking etc. etc. breaks wide open. At some point we're going to have to go to RAI, and I don't think you're supposed to be allowed to hop in a tank and go zooming off after regrouping, unless you're a space marine.

In each subsequent Movement phase, they will make further Fall Back moves instead of moving normally, until the unit Regroups, is destroyed or leaves the table.

IF you opt to not move them, they did not make a Fall Back move. That breaks the quoted rule from the Morale section of the rulebook.

So no, you can't opt not to move them.

So a falling back unit can't embark on a transport, because those rules say a unit falling back continues to fall back until it is destroyed, regroups, or leaves the table and embarking would make them unable to move?

Or does embarking count as being removed from the table?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Which would lead to "fearless" and a tactic i'd then call "Rhino catching".

Rhino Rally sounds better :-)

 Spellbound wrote:
So a falling back unit can't embark on a transport, because those rules say a unit falling back continues to fall back until it is destroyed, regroups, or leaves the table and embarking would make them unable to move?

Or does embarking count as being removed from the table?

Embarking makes them fearless, fearless units automatically regroup.

 Spellbound wrote:
So a falling back unit can't embark on a transport, because those rules say a unit falling back continues to fall back until it is destroyed, regroups, or leaves the table and embarking would make them unable to move?

Or does embarking count as being removed from the table?

Dude they have answered this question for you at least a dozen times now.

The units that have fallen back have regrouped, they get a 3" move and if this puts them into range of embarking into a Rhino, then they can. Nothing in the rules states that once embarked on a transport the transport cannot move.

If the units are falling back and have failed to regroup, you cannot fall back into a Rhino because you must first regroup before doing anything but continuing to fall back, the rules are quite clear on all circumstances that stop a unit from falling back.

Embarking does not count as being removed from the table, as the units are still on the table.

Ok i'll just put this matter to rest with Rule quotes as i am with a book right now:
Emphasis mine.

P57: "the only move they can make in subsequent phases are Fall Back moves until they regroup."
and "In each subsequent Movement phase, they will make further Fall Back moves instead of moving normally, until the unit Regroups, is destroyed or leaves the table."

p59: "must attempt to Regroup (...) just before they move"
and "it cannot otherwise move"

From this, i do believe most people here agree that "Embarking"(p80) is not a "move", even though it is in the movement phase? (RaI they should have included "Embarking move")
RaW is quite clear: "Can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" "
It does not say *how* you move them so falling back is accepted?

Rhino Rally will be the new 7th Ed - thing -