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It may be a problem with what people desire, but not with the rules. If the rules stated that the number of powers that can be manifested depended on both the ML and the number of powers known, then characters like Be'lakor would be able to manifest a lot of powers. But as the rules are written, the number of powers that can be manifested only depends upon the ML. 

Even still, there is a great advantage to knowing a large number of powers, and picking and choosing which ones to manifest depending on the circumstances. Even for lowly ML1 psychers, getting to pick between their power and the primaris power is a great advantage as many powers are very useful, but only in the right circumstances.

So if I'm mastery level 1 how many powers can I cast? What rules are you using to determine that number?

If I'm a lvl1 Psyker and I only have WC3 powers and I roll 1 for WarpCharge (giving me a total of 2 dice) can I still cast a power?

Hollismason wrote:
the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

See, this is a wild assumption, you have no idea if the person writing the rules was trying to be clear or not.

We hope he was not "trying to be willfully unclear" but he may have been "trying to be willfully unclear" we simply can not say with any certainty if he was or not.

Hollismason wrote:


Do you genuinelly think that Psykers can cast all spells they know? If yes why? Then why have the statement, why not say " Casters can cast all spells they know".Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game. Why was this specific ruling made. Why was this statement not made this way?

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

Cause the rulebook says we can....

Zimko wrote:
You want a consistent formula? OK.

F(ML) = ML + BP + FP

ML = mastery level
BP = 1 if given bonus primarus power. 0 if not
FP = 1 if equipped with Force weapon. 0 if not.

Example. Warlock is Psyker ML 1. He will roll in his table and reciieve the bonus primarus power. He does not have a force weapon.

F(ML) = 1 + 1 + 0 = 2

The problem with this formula is that is is not a function of ML alone. The rules state that the number of powers that may be manifested depends on ML, not bonus powers, not force weapons.

madric wrote:
The problem with this formula is that is is not a function of ML alone. The rules state that the number of powers that may be manifested depends on ML, not bonus powers, not force weapons.

The rules never say that the number of powers that may be manifested depends solely on ML. That's your assumption.
Given that they later refer to casting as many powers as you have WC for... it's not an assumption with ironclad support.

So if I'm mastery level 1 how many powers can I cast? What rules are you using to determine that number?

If I'm a lvl1 Psyker and I only have WC3 powers and I roll 1 for WarpCharge (giving me a total of 2 dice) can I still cast a power?

Depending on what examples are in the book, the only possibilities logically available are 1 (ML) or 2 (ML+1). Only one of these will be correct, just find an example in the book where they say how many powers a character with a certain ML can manifest.

If this Psyker is your only one, and you roll 1 for warp charges, and both your power (and the primaris power you get) both require 3 warp charges, then you may still attempt to manifest the power, but you do not have a chance to pass the psychic test, which requires a minimum of 3 successful dice rolls.

Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Yes, this has been quoted often (even in this thread). However, that is only one line in the Psychic phase rules. There is also this one; ""If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

How can you attempt to manifest another, assuming you still have WC points left, if you're limited to manifesting a number = to your ML (which, as has also been pointed out, depends =/= equal to in all cases, and this case is entirely unclear).?

The rules never say that the number of powers that may be manifested depends solely on ML. That's your assumption.
Given that they later refer to casting as many powers as you have WC for... it's not an assumption with ironclad support.

The rule states that the number of powers that can be manifested in a phase depends on the ML of the psyker. Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers. Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these. If every psyker has access to bonus powers, then the formula might be ML+1, but my suspicion is that there are still codices out there that list what powers explicitly and give a ML1 psyker a specific power, which would limit the rule's interpretation of the number of manifested powers per phase to simply be the ML alone.

madric wrote:

So if I'm mastery level 1 how many powers can I cast? What rules are you using to determine that number?

If I'm a lvl1 Psyker and I only have WC3 powers and I roll 1 for WarpCharge (giving me a total of 2 dice) can I still cast a power?

Depending on what examples are in the book, the only possibilities logically available are 1 (ML) or 2 (ML+1). Only one of these will be correct, just find an example in the book where they say how many powers a character with a certain ML can manifest.

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

If the ONLY possibilities are 1 or 2, this line contradicts that, as it states I can continue casting as long as I have warp charges available (and do not cast the same power twice with the same unit)

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Yes, this has been quoted often (even in this thread). However, that is only one line in the Psychic phase rules. There is also this one; ""If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

How can you attempt to manifest another, assuming you still have WC points left, if you're limited to manifesting a number = to your ML (which, as has also been pointed out, depends =/= equal to in all cases, and this case is entirely unclear).?

Well the way I see it, if you are Mastery Level 1, you can only use one Psychic power, Mastery Level 2 you can use only two and so on until the maximum.

Something I just noticed after I posted though, the wording states that the number of Psychic powers a Psyker can "use" is depends on their Mastery Level. Reading your post, it states manifesting a Psyker power. If you successfully manifest it you use that particular Psychic power, if you fail to manifest that particular Psychic power you have not used any Psychic powers and, assuming you have Warp Charges left, you can attempt to manifest "use" another one.

madric wrote:
Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers.

That's quite a logical leap.
Why must? That's quite a definitive statement that the rules don't reflect.

Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these.

Logically only if your assumption above is correct.

madric wrote:

The rules never say that the number of powers that may be manifested depends solely on ML. That's your assumption.
Given that they later refer to casting as many powers as you have WC for... it's not an assumption with ironclad support.

The rule states that the number of powers that can be manifested in a phase depends on the ML of the psyker. Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers. Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these. If every psyker has access to bonus powers, then the formula might be ML+1, but my suspicion is that there are still codices out there that list what powers explicitly and give a ML1 psyker a specific power, which would limit the rule's interpretation of the number of manifested powers per phase to simply be the ML alone.

Again, you're assuming that the word "solely" is in the rule. It isn't.
And you're also assuming GW was clear in communicating what they want. They aren't often.

Why can it not be 2(ML)? Using your understanding, it's solely dependant on the mastery level and is just as valid an assumption as equal to ML.

 grendel083 wrote:

madric wrote:
Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers.

That's quite a logical leap.
Why must? That's quite a definitive statement that the rules don't reflect.

Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these.

Logically only if your assumption above is correct.

This is derived from the bolded text of the original poster:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level

If there is a section in force weapons that says that wielders may manifest an additional power, please provide it. Also check the section for primaris powers, see if the rule indicates that a psyker with one can manifest another power.

The only remaining issue is the one below:

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

Cause the rulebook says we can....

I would like to know what section of the book this quote is from. Most rule books describe topics in multiple passes. If there is one section that says how many powers one must manifest, and then there is a section that describes in what order units may manifest powers, and the above quote is in that section, then the context of the quote would make it clear that it is not intended to override the number of powers that may be manifested.

What section or subheading is the quote above in? That is, what is the context?

madric wrote:
I would like to know what section of the book this quote is from. Most rule books describe topics in multiple passes. If there is one section that says how many powers one must manifest, and then there is a section that describes in what order units may manifest powers, and the above quote is in that section, then the context of the quote would make it clear that it is not intended to override the number of powers that may be manifested.

What section or subheading is the quote above in? That is, what is the context?

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows.

Under the Psychic Phase. Having the rules is a benefit when attempting to participate in a rules discussion.

madric wrote:

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

Cause the rulebook says we can....

I would like to know what section of the book this quote is from. Most rule books describe topics in multiple passes. If there is one section that says how many powers one must manifest, and then there is a section that describes in what order units may manifest powers, and the above quote is in that section, then the context of the quote would make it clear that it is not intended to override the number of powers that may be manifested.

What section or subheading is the quote above in? That is, what is the context?

resolving the psychic phase -> manifesting psychic powers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobomalo wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Yes, this has been quoted often (even in this thread). However, that is only one line in the Psychic phase rules. There is also this one; ""If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

How can you attempt to manifest another, assuming you still have WC points left, if you're limited to manifesting a number = to your ML (which, as has also been pointed out, depends =/= equal to in all cases, and this case is entirely unclear).?

Well the way I see it, if you are Mastery Level 1, you can only use one Psychic power, Mastery Level 2 you can use only two and so on until the maximum.

Something I just noticed after I posted though, the wording states that the number of Psychic powers a Psyker can "use" is depends on their Mastery Level. Reading your post, it states manifesting a Psyker power. If you successfully manifest it you use that particular Psychic power, if you fail to manifest that particular Psychic power you have not used any Psychic powers and, assuming you have Warp Charges left, you can attempt to manifest "use" another one.

The only place the word "use" is written is in that one line. Every other instance in the Psychic phase uses the word Manifest.

Wouldn't manifesting a power be using it though, or are these two separate actions?

Depending on what examples are in the book, the only possibilities logically available are 1 (ML) or 2 (ML+1). Only one of these will be correct, just find an example in the book where they say how many powers a character with a certain ML can manifest. 

Why have we ruled out ML+2 or ML+100 or MLx2 or even MLx1000? Actual rules please.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Wouldn't manifesting a power be using it though, or are these two separate actions?

Considering GW's writing skills and historical context, I would imagine "use" and "manifest" are equivalent in this case. In which case; this line ->"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows." allows you to manifest until you are out of warp charges.

How does that "depend on ML"? Because your psykers ML contributes to determining the total number of warp charges available, of course, making it dependant on ML (in part).

Absolutely I can see that GW *may* have meant ML = # Of powers you can use, but that is not, at all, what they wrote, thus making it mildly unclear (especially when adding the other rule above)

There's people here talking about how I "can use up to 12 Witchfires a turn- Firestorm x3, Smite x3, Flame Breath x3 and Shriek x3".. and I've seen that on various places here on dakka.

Personally, I don't play it that way. For example, I'll pop Endurance and then triple Shriek and that's 4 powers. I'm not sure that there is an actual limit on how many powers a psyker can use in the rules, but I do know that using 3x of the same Witchfire is not a single power.. It's using 3 powers.. So food for thought, if in case one day everyone is on the same page with powers used vs. Mastery Level.

I am usually hard-pressed to have enough dice to get off 4 spells from one character anyway!!

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Wouldn't manifesting a power be using it though, or are these two separate actions?

Considering GW's writing skills and historical context, I would imagine "use" and "manifest" are equivalent in this case. In which case; this line ->"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows." allows you to manifest until you are out of warp charges.

How does that "depend on ML"? Because your psykers ML contributes to determining the total number of warp charges available, of course, making it dependant on ML (in part).

Absolutely I can see that GW *may* have meant ML = # Of powers you can use, but that is not, at all, what they wrote, thus making it mildly unclear (especially when adding the other rule above)

But they directly state that Mastery Level determines the number of powers used. What they have not stated is a limit to how many a Psyker can "attempt" to manifest as this is determined by the Warp Charge amount. The way it sounds to me, manifest is being treated the same as the word use in this instance as the word manifest has no other verb usage in this situation.

 Brometheus wrote:
There's people here talking about how I "can use up to 12 Witchfires a turn- Firestorm x3, Smite x3, Flame Breath x3 and Shriek x3..

Personally, I don't play it that way. For example, I'll pop Endurance and then triple Shriek and that's 4 powers. I'm not sure that there is an actual limit on how many powers a psyker can use in the rules, but I do know that using 3x of the same Witchfire is not a single power.. It's using 3 powers.. So food for thought, if in case one day everyone is on the same page with powers used vs. Mastery Level..

Well there's another rule forbidding you from using the same power twice, so both of those are illegal (well, from the same unit).

Right but Ahriman can use the same Witchfire 3x because of the faq.

 Brometheus wrote:
There's people here talking about how I "can use up to 12 Witchfires a turn- Firestorm x3, Smite x3, Flame Breath x3 and Shriek x3".. and I've seen that on various places here on dakka.

Personally, I don't play it that way. For example, I'll pop Endurance and then triple Shriek and that's 4 powers. I'm not sure that there is an actual limit on how many powers a psyker can use in the rules, but I do know that using 3x of the same Witchfire is not a single power.. It's using 3 powers.. So food for thought, if in case one day everyone is on the same page with powers used vs. Mastery Level.

I am usually hard-pressed to have enough dice to get off 4 spells from one character anyway!!

If those are coming from different units, sure. If they are coming from the same unit, that is forbidden by the rules (you may not attempt to manifest the same power twice with the same unit. 3 x Shriek = 3 x the same power)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brometheus wrote:
Right but Ahriman can use the same Witchfire 3x because of the faq.

Of course. The (usually absent, but understood) "unless otherwise noted" rules come in to play there.

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows.

Thank you for the context.

My interpretation of the above quote is that it is describing allowed actions for players after they manifest a psychic power. It seems to be stating the following:
1. Only the player whose turn it is may manifest powers.
2. The controlling player picks a psyker to manifest powers with, and then:
a) If he has remaining warp charges, he may use them to manifest more powers.
b) He moves onto another psyker to begin manifesting powers.
3. If no warp charges remain, the controlling player may not manifest a power.

I think the rule is not actually making a statement on the number of powers that may be manifested by a single psyker. The sentence specifies that what is says only applies after attempting to manifest a power, and the number of powers that may be manifested per psyker is known before that time, so the sentence does not apply to this figure. It is simply disallowing a player from using a power from psyker A, another from psyker B, and then going back to psyker A for another. It also covers the situation of what happens if all your warp charges are used up before a psyker has had a chance to manifest a power, and basically says he's out of luck no matter what his mastery level is; no warp charges = no more manifestations.

Yeah.. I will add to the discussion that even if there's a guy who is level 4, I'd rather dump more dice into a couple powers than a few dice spread around 4 powers.. I find myself doing that every game in 7th so far..

It's no secret that every army might be using 40-60% of the powers they'd use in 6th! I like that, though.. If a new phase is taking up 25% of the game turns, I'd rather blast through it

madric wrote:

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows.

Thank you for the context.

My interpretation of the above quote is that it is describing allowed actions for players after they manifest a psychic power. It seems to be stating the following:
1. Only the player whose turn it is may manifest powers.
2. The controlling player picks a psyker to manifest powers with, and then:
a) If he has remaining warp charges, he may use them to manifest more powers.
b) He moves onto another psyker to begin manifesting powers.
3. If no warp charges remain, the controlling player may not manifest a power.

I think the rule is not actually making a statement on the number of powers that may be manifested by a single psyker. The sentence specifies that what is says only applies after attempting to manifest a power, and the number of powers that may be manifested per psyker is known before that time, so the sentence does not apply to this figure. It is simply disallowing a player from using a power from psyker A, another from psyker B, and then going back to psyker A for another. It also covers the situation of what happens if all your warp charges are used up before a psyker has had a chance to manifest a power, and basically says he's out of luck no matter what his mastery level is; no warp charges = no more manifestations.

For the underlined, if you actually read the rules (I suggest you do, as it seems apparent you havn't) they explicitly state you CAN do this.

It also states that you can attempt to manifest another power in the same psyker unit. If my psyker is an IC and on his own, how can I do that, assuming your limitations (Other than the rules stating I can, as long as I have sufficient Warp Charges)

madric wrote:
It is simply disallowing a player from using a power from psyker A, another from psyker B, and then going back to psyker A for another

See, this is where having a rulebook would help you.
Since quoting the entire rules is frowned upon unless required, I stopped copying after the relevant sentence was quoted.
Here's the next sentence:

Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

So no, it doesn't disallow that at all. Again, having a rulebook is a good thing when participating in rules discussions.

It also covers the situation of what happens if all your warp charges are used up before a psyker has had a chance to manifest a power, and basically says he's out of luck no matter what his mastery level is; no warp charges = no more manifestations.

How do the following rules not do that also?

To make a Psychic test, you will first need to expend a number of Warp Charge points; declare how many points you are spending and remove them from your pool. Then, roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points you have expended.

Since you can't roll 0d6...

Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

The amount of redundancy in here is amazing! According to your assumptions there's at least 3 places they said "no warp charges = no more manifestations." and that's with me only looking at the rules for 30 seconds...

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes. Any interpretation of that initial statement is always going to be from a RAI or HIWPI standpoint because it's just not explicit enough. If you follow the RAW for the psychic phase you can currently cast as many powers as you want if you meet the other rules requirements.

One of those RULES, are you may use as many powers as his mastery level.

I'd does not matter that tigurius ha 3 powers, plus force, and possibly a 5 the power due to psychic focus. He can still only manifest a max of 3, but now has a choice to make as to which he will use.

I'm with Hollismason on this, and would add further that some here just like to argue. I bet of those few they would argue the time of day it is in a clock shop with every clock set to the current time.

The bolded rule does not say you get to cast as many powers as that psyker has warp charges, or spells. It's says depends on mastery level. Simply put a LVL 3 casts 3' a LVL 1 casts 1. The reason they use the word depends, is because it means different things in different situations. Like LVL 1'vs a LVL 3.

Lungpickle wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes. Any interpretation of that initial statement is always going to be from a RAI or HIWPI standpoint because it's just not explicit enough. If you follow the RAW for the psychic phase you can currently cast as many powers as you want if you meet the other rules requirements.

One of those RULES, are you may use as many powers as his mastery level.

Except that's not what the rule states.