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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 18:18:15
Subject: Re:Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Lungpickle wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:Yes. Any interpretation of that initial statement is always going to be from a RAI or HIWPI standpoint because it's just not explicit enough. If you follow the RAW for the psychic phase you can currently cast as many powers as you want if you meet the other rules requirements.
One of those RULES, are you may use as many powers as his mastery level.
I really wish that is what it said, because then we would have a clear and unambiguous rule. But it does not say that, hence this discussion on top of the previous multi-page discussion.
Bottom line. GW screwed it up and we don't know what they meant. And this argument will continue until they FAQ it. Soon, I hope.
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 18:23:30
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Hollismason wrote:I don't need magic cards, or some special insight, I can simply say " Okay through understanding and common sense, this is what this sentence meant". It's not being insulting , what's insulting is to purposefully be difficult in a argument and unyielding. That goes nowhere.
Do you genuinelly think that Psykers can cast all spells they know? If yes why? Then why have the statement, why not say " Casters can cast all spells they know".Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game. Why was this specific ruling made. Why was this statement not made this way?
Because of the assumption of the writer ,which is unfortunate as they should know better, that people would find it actually difficult to interpret.There's no "trick" in 40k the people who write this aren't trying to hide combos, they're not trying to "confuse" you on purpose. They are assuming that the reader is versed in the game and understanding of language that they will reach a logical not illogical conclusion to what they write.
That's my problem with it.
When I was a paramedic , there was this thing called implied consent.What this meant was that a person who could not give consent, due to being injured or unconscious, would want the best available treatement to them as that was a reasonable response.There's implied consent in the rules, they want you to enjoy the game and understand the rules in a simple and orderly fashion. Granted they could use a actual editor but the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.
If you take that statement to it's logical conclusion then you have to come to a reasonable assumption that the authorial intent was to right something simply that anyone could understand with out misinterpretation. They failed but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad or that the rule is unclear. It's that you the reader are unwilling to view the rule in a clear and concise rational view.
Except you're horribly stretching the link to something like implied consent. If your patient is alert, and conscious, and writing things down for you.... he could still sue you if you treated him after he wrote "I want good treatment", and you assumed that meant he wanted to be RSI'd. Implied consent doesn't apply if they are talking to you / writing things for you like faq's.
K. Van Patten, EMT-P
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 18:50:08
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
Brooklyn, NY
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For the underlined, if you actually read the rules (I suggest you do, as it seems apparent you havn't) they explicitly state you CAN do this.
You are correct, the following sentence provides additional information. Also, I have not yet received my copy of the rules, but I may still interpret information that is presented to me. The main point of my statement was to point out the prepositional and conditional phrase, "If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power". That phrase gives valuable context and rules out the possibility that this sentence determines how many psychic powers may be manifested by a psyker, as this number is determined before even the first attempt.
It also states that you can attempt to manifest another power in the same psyker unit. If my psyker is an IC and on his own, how can I do that, assuming your limitations (Other than the rules stating I can, as long as I have sufficient Warp Charges)
An independent character on its own, or unattached to any other unit, is itself a unit that consists of a single model.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 18:53:48
Subject: Re:Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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Lungpickle wrote:
The bolded rule does not say you get to cast as many powers as that psyker has warp charges, or spells. It's says depends on mastery level. Simply put a LVL 3 casts 3' a LVL 1 casts 1. The reason they use the word depends, is because it means different things in different situations. Like LVL 1'vs a LVL 3.
No... It doesn't. You are inferring that is what it means based on rules from previous editions.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 18:54:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 18:54:34
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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madric wrote:For the underlined, if you actually read the rules (I suggest you do, as it seems apparent you havn't) they explicitly state you CAN do this.
You are correct, the following sentence provides additional information. Also, I have not yet received my copy of the rules, but I may still interpret information that is presented to me. The main point of my statement was to point out the prepositional and conditional phrase, "If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power". That phrase gives valuable context and rules out the possibility that this sentence determines how many psychic powers may be manifested by a psyker, as this number is determined before even the first attempt.
Unfortunately this means you're interpreting without having the rules to go by, which means you are (obviously) missing many rules. One line in an entire book of rules cannot be taken on its own, as you well know (context).
It also states that you can attempt to manifest another power in the same psyker unit. If my psyker is an IC and on his own, how can I do that, assuming your limitations (Other than the rules stating I can, as long as I have sufficient Warp Charges)
An independent character on its own, or unattached to any other unit, is itself a unit that consists of a single model.
Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:01:19
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Sneaky Lictor
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From what we discussed earlier.
That Independent Character with a Mastery Level of 2 would be able to attempt to manifest three powers, but he would only be able to actually use two of them because he is limited by his Mastery Level, If I recall what I wrote earlier correctly. A Psyker needs to first attempt to manifest a spell before he can use it and you would do each spell one at a time.
So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them. I would then attempt to manifest these powers one at a time. Skipping ahead, I successfully manifest the Foreboding and the Forewarning. Since I have used two Psychic powers I am unable to attempt to use the Primaris because my limit for the allotment of spells I can use in a turn has been reached.
Or am I completely way off base here. This is how it is reads to me when I go over the section.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:01:41
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:13:35
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
Brooklyn, NY
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Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?
Based on the two bits of rules presented in this thread (with the second quote being not applicable for determining the number of powers that can be manifested), the IC may use either 2 or 3, depending on what other examples in the book state. The analysis below indicates why the only possible relations allowed between ML and number of phychic powers that can be manifested is either the ML or ML+1. There should be at least 1 example in the book that clarifies what the actual relation is.
"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.
I do not think this relationship is as unclear as people are making it out to be. In addition to the rule stating that the number of powers that can be manifested depends on mastery level, you also have to consider that nowhere else in the book does it indicate that the number of powers that can be manifested depends upon anything else.
Thus, two psychers with the same mastery level should be able to manifest the same number of powers. This actually rules out a lot of possibilities. There are units that have a number of powers that is more than their mastery level, and from the rule, we know that this cannot influence the number of powers manifested, only the mastery level can.
So let us figure out more specific limitations for the following:
Number of Powers = F( ML ), where F is some unknown function and ML is the psycher's Mastery Level.
Powers are countable, thus F > 0 for any ML.
F is NOT influenced by any other factors, such as the number of powers known.
F( ML) <= ML + (minimum 1d6 roll, which is 1), otherwise there would not be enough warp charges to even attempt to manifest powers.
This also implies that F( ML) must be linear.
F( ML) is NOT a constant, otherwise it would not depend on ML.
The only possibilities logically left are:
1) F( ML) = ML - 1
2) F( ML) = ML
3) F( ML) = ML + 1
Even though there are no ML 0 psychers, I think it is fair to eliminate option 1 because that would lead to -1 powers for a hypothetical ML0 psycher.
So the only possibilities left are:
F( ML) = ML --or-- F( ML) = ML + 1
I do not have a 7th edition book, but the final formula could be determined by looking for an example in the book that indicates how many powers a specific psycher can manifest.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:16:42
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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Lobomalo wrote:
So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.
There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:18:48
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
The sentence you are drawing this from does not support that statement. Saying F depends on ML does not mean F does not also depend on some other factor.
To demonstrate this...
F = ML + X
In this example F depends on ML. F also depends on X. All the rulebook currently tells us is that F depends on ML. No other information was given on the relationship between ML and F.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:20:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:22:17
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Zimko wrote:madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.
We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:24:30
The 7th Edition FAQ is out!
Pink Horrors can summon.
Daemon Factory is legal! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:23:36
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Lobomalo wrote:
From what we discussed earlier.
That Independent Character with a Mastery Level of 2 would be able to attempt to manifest three powers, but he would only be able to actually use two of them because he is limited by his Mastery Level, If I recall what I wrote earlier correctly. A Psyker needs to first attempt to manifest a spell before he can use it and you would do each spell one at a time.
In the context of the rules I would have to say that use = manifest (since the rules discuss manifesting powers and the ability to continue to do so until out of warp charges with only the one unqualified/unquantified line using the word "use"). There is nothing in the rules that defines a failed attempt as non-used (or the alternate, a successful attempt = a "used" power).
You are adding limitations that are non-existant in the rules (relying on the unqualified and unquantified "depends on the psykers ML" statement).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:24:01
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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The Hive Mind
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Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.
No - what we're saying is that limiting it to solely ML isn't supported by the rules so saying "cast all you want" is against the rules is incorrect.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:24:03
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.
No, the other party is basicly ignoring the rule because it doesn't give enough information to be applied to the rules. The rest of the rules for the psychic phase give enough information that the quoted rule isn't relevant.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:24:48
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Horrific Howling Banshee
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The 7th ed book indicates a pskyer can cast each power it knows once per turn. mastery level strongly dictates how many powers you know, hence the rule text you are quoting. This is further limited by warp charge dice. However, since 7th pools the dice, it is much easier for more dice of warp power to be allocated to a psyker than they themselves generate (a level 1 demon could use 8 dice to cast the demonology primaris if another pskyer is available and they rolled well)
There is a permissive rule that says I can cast any power a pskyer knows with any number of warp charge dice. It is followed by a rule saying I may only attempt a power once from each pskyer who knows said power. The last rule says I may continue casting until I run or of dice. I know of know other rules. I believe this supports my above position.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:25:34
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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madric wrote:Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?
Based on the two bits of rules presented in this thread (with the second quote being not applicable for determining the number of powers that can be manifested), the IC may use either 2 or 3, depending on what other examples in the book state. The analysis below indicates why the only possible relations allowed between ML and number of phychic powers that can be manifested is either the ML or ML+1. There should be at least 1 example in the book that clarifies what the actual relation is.
But I have permission to continue to manifest powers until out of warp charges. Why are you ignoring that rule in favor of one that does not quantify or qualify (in any way, your assumed calculations being irrelavant as they have no rules basis) how many you may manifest, specifically?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:27:17
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Green is Best! wrote: Lobomalo wrote:
So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.
There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.
I have never played a previous edition. This is straight from the 7th edition rulebook.
Please, don't take out a part of my post and assume something, it is not polite.
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In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:27:18
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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madric wrote:Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?
Based on the two bits of rules presented in this thread (with the second quote being not applicable for determining the number of powers that can be manifested), the IC may use either 2 or 3, depending on what other examples in the book state. The analysis below indicates why the only possible relations allowed between ML and number of phychic powers that can be manifested is either the ML or ML+1. There should be at least 1 example in the book that clarifies what the actual relation is.
"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.
I do not think this relationship is as unclear as people are making it out to be. In addition to the rule stating that the number of powers that can be manifested depends on mastery level, you also have to consider that nowhere else in the book does it indicate that the number of powers that can be manifested depends upon anything else.
Thus, two psychers with the same mastery level should be able to manifest the same number of powers. This actually rules out a lot of possibilities. There are units that have a number of powers that is more than their mastery level, and from the rule, we know that this cannot influence the number of powers manifested, only the mastery level can.
So let us figure out more specific limitations for the following:
Number of Powers = F( ML ), where F is some unknown function and ML is the psycher's Mastery Level.
Powers are countable, thus F > 0 for any ML.
F is NOT influenced by any other factors, such as the number of powers known.
F( ML) <= ML + (minimum 1d6 roll, which is 1), otherwise there would not be enough warp charges to even attempt to manifest powers.
This also implies that F( ML) must be linear.
F( ML) is NOT a constant, otherwise it would not depend on ML.
The only possibilities logically left are:
1) F( ML) = ML - 1
2) F( ML) = ML
3) F( ML) = ML + 1
Even though there are no ML 0 psychers, I think it is fair to eliminate option 1 because that would lead to -1 powers for a hypothetical ML0 psycher.
So the only possibilities left are:
F( ML) = ML --or-- F( ML) = ML + 1
I do not have a 7th edition book, but the final formula could be determined by looking for an example in the book that indicates how many powers a specific psycher can manifest.
Actually read that analysis none of it is really based on fact. You claim it must not be exponential for no reason other than there would not be enough warp charge. Given that the whole reasoning is based on it not being dependant on other factors saying that it must be linear due to another factor is frankly bizarre. Having decided based on literally nothing that it must be linear you then leap to it being +/-1 this time without even pretending to have a reason.
So using actual rules not bluster explain why it can't be ML+1000 or MLx1000. Rather than your arbitrarily chosen +/-1. Any actual evidence to support the conclusion?
I think we should actually look at what they've said. They exclusively use manifest in relation to activating powers and yet the word "use" is here talking about dependence on Mastery Level. To me this tells us that this is fluff text rather than rules and it goes on to tell us about how powerful psykers are which again supports this being narrative text rather than functional rules text.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:28:38
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Zimko wrote:Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.
No, the other party is basicly ignoring the rule because it doesn't give enough information to be applied to the rules. The rest of the rules for the psychic phase give enough information that the quoted rule isn't relevant.
When we start picking and choosing which rules we obey and which we don't, we enter the realm of House rulings. The statements referenced have no correlation to the number of powers that may be manifested, merely the limitations imposed by warp charges... an important distinction since previously the warp charges applied to individuals and were not some collective pool of resources. The only rule that does have any reference to the number of powers allowed conveniently is being ignored. It's hardly irrelevant when it's more specific than the general instructions of the manifesting sequence.
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The 7th Edition FAQ is out!
Pink Horrors can summon.
Daemon Factory is legal! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:32:59
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.
No, the other party is basicly ignoring the rule because it doesn't give enough information to be applied to the rules. The rest of the rules for the psychic phase give enough information that the quoted rule isn't relevant.
When we start picking and choosing which rules we obey and which we don't, we enter the realm of House rulings. The statements referenced have no correlation to the number of powers that may be manifested, merely the limitations imposed by warp charges... an important distinction since previously the warp charges applied to individuals and were not some collective pool of resources. The only rule that does have any reference to the number of powers allowed conveniently is being ignored. It's hardly irrelevant when it's more specific than the general instructions of the manifesting sequence.
If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.
Using this... is the number of powers my psyker can cast depending on the ML? yes... it's how I determined how many powers he knows.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:34:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:35:28
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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The Hive Mind
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Lobomalo wrote: Green is Best! wrote: Lobomalo wrote:
So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.
There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.
I have never played a previous edition. This is straight from the 7th edition rulebook.
Please, don't take out a part of my post and assume something, it is not polite.
Quote the rule then. I think you'll find it doesn't exist and you're thinking of the rule that's been quoted often in this thread - which doesn't say what you think it says.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:36:45
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Zimko wrote:If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.
Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).
In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.
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The 7th Edition FAQ is out!
Pink Horrors can summon.
Daemon Factory is legal! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:37:09
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Lobomalo wrote:Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,
"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
The rule was already posted by me a few hours ago. It tells you how many you can "use" per turn. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote: Lobomalo wrote: Green is Best! wrote: Lobomalo wrote:
So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.
There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.
I have never played a previous edition. This is straight from the 7th edition rulebook.
Please, don't take out a part of my post and assume something, it is not polite.
Quote the rule then. I think you'll find it doesn't exist and you're thinking of the rule that's been quoted often in this thread - which doesn't say what you think it says.
Posted for you to look at.
There is nothing in the Psyker section that states anything negating this rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:37:58
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:38:01
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.
We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.
Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:38:31
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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The Hive Mind
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Lobomalo wrote: Lobomalo wrote:Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,
"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
The rule was already posted by me a few hours ago. It tells you how many you can "use" per turn.
I see that it depends on his Mastery Level. I do not see that it is equal to his Mastery Level.
In other words, you haven't even read the thread and just wanted to jump in. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.
Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).
In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.
Um. Mastery Level determines number of Warp Charges per turn - hardly irrelevant.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:39:20
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:39:58
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Sneaky Lictor
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rigeld2 wrote: Lobomalo wrote: Lobomalo wrote:Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,
"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
The rule was already posted by me a few hours ago. It tells you how many you can "use" per turn.
I see that it depends on his Mastery Level. I do not see that it is equal to his Mastery Level.
In other words, you haven't even read the thread and just wanted to jump in.
Excuse me, I have read the entire thread, multiple times in fact. You guys are getting caught up on the manifestation part of the rules and saying you should be able to get more because there isn't anything saying that you cannot.
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In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:41:05
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.
Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.
We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.
Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?
So you're saying you want to go ahead and cast 5 more powers using no Warp Charge dice? Be my guest. Let's see how many successes you roll on zero.
Being out of mana doesn't mean being out of spells per turn.
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The 7th Edition FAQ is out!
Pink Horrors can summon.
Daemon Factory is legal! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:41:05
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.
Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).
In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.
As with all permissive rules, "Unless otherwise stated" is a very important thing. It's actually a given. And the cases you just cited would fall under "unless otherwise noted" as they are more specific than the general rules for psykers. (** Zimko explained even better)
Not to mention ML determining Warp Charges, so it's not irrelevant in any way.
Depends on =/= equal to
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:43:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:41:44
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Kyutaru wrote:Zimko wrote:If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.
Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).
In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.
Ok... lets say I have a ML 2 pyker.
Focused/Force: 4 powers
Focused only: 3 powers
Force only: 3 powers
none: 2 powers
In all of those cases, the number is dependant on the mastery level and therefore meets the criteria for the rule "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." Because if his mastery level were 1 then all those numbers would be 1 less. 3 then 1 more.
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:41:49
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
Brooklyn, NY
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Actually read that analysis none of it is really based on fact. You claim it must not be exponential for no reason other than there would not be enough warp charge. Given that the whole reasoning is based on it not being dependant on other factors saying that it must be linear due to another factor is frankly bizarre.
At a minimum, a power must take at least 1 warp charge. It is well within reason to conclude that the rules would not be written to allow more powers to be manifested than even the maximum number of warp charges. So relations like F( ML) = ML^6 + 32 can easily be ruled out. The only exponent and coefficient that stays within bounds of the number of warp charges is 1 (exponent) and 1 (coefficient). So the formula is of the form F( ML) = ML + X.
Having decided based on literally nothing that it must be linear you then leap to it being +/-1 this time without even pretending to have a reason.
So using actual rules not bluster explain why it can't be ML+1000 or MLx1000. Rather than your arbitrarily chosen +/-1. Any actual evidence to support the conclusion?
This is also determined from the fact that a psyker cannot manifest more powers than is possible. When rolling warp charges, the roll can range from 1 to 6, with a minimum being 1. So the minimum total amount of warp charges available is 2. I was trying my best to be clear with my reasoning, but the details I laid out were quite long as they were written. Please be more specific in your question. Is your claim that the number of manifested powers should be ML + 20, or something of the sort?
I think we should actually look at what they've said. They exclusively use manifest in relation to activating powers and yet the word "use" is here talking about dependence on Mastery Level. To me this tells us that this is fluff text rather than rules and it goes on to tell us about how powerful psykers are which again supports this being narrative text rather than functional rules text.
I'm not sure what you are stating here. Are you stating that the section the quote from the original poster was not intended to be part of the rules? I was under the presumption that concepts such as "mastery level" are a game mechanic, and have little meaning in terms of fluff. It might have a fluff meaning as a vague concept, but certainly not as a specific integer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/10 19:41:59
Subject: Is there a limit to how many powers can a psyker manifest in 7e?
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The Hive Mind
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Lobomalo wrote:Excuse me, I have read the entire thread, multiple times in fact. You guys are getting caught up on the manifestation part of the rules and saying you should be able to get more because there isn't anything saying that you cannot.
We have permission to manifest a power. Correct?
I pick this Psyker here. He's already manifested 1 power and he's ML1. Is this legal or not? Please cite the rule denying it.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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