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Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

Plus, you're forgetting that units like the Pink Horrors generate more warp charges than their mastery level. How do they fit into your theory?

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Excuse me, I have read the entire thread, multiple times in fact. You guys are getting caught up on the manifestation part of the rules and saying you should be able to get more because there isn't anything saying that you cannot.

We have permission to manifest a power. Correct?
I pick this Psyker here. He's already manifested 1 power and he's ML1. Is this legal or not? Please cite the rule denying it.

Successfully manifesting and resolving a power is using a power, yes or no?

I am not denying that you manifest powers to use them, you have to or you cannot use them. What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level.

You have to manifest a power before you can use it.

You can either look at the word manifest as a successful resolution of the power from which it is being used as a verb, an action, then he is using a power, or you can look at the section where it says resolving a power as using a power and the word resolve then takes the place for use.

Either way, as I read them, you have to use a power to actually use it so you are limited by your Mastery Level.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

See, this is a wild assumption, you have no idea if the person writing the rules was trying to be clear or not.

We hope he was not "trying to be willfully unclear" but he may have been "trying to be willfully unclear" we simply can not say with any certainty if he was or not.

Sure because everyone who is writing a book says " Lets make this a mess and see if anyone notices."

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

His ML does come in to play (adds warp charges to the army as a whole), so how is it not dependant? Unless you're saying dependant = equal to (which is not necessarily the case. Something can be dependant on a particular item, but that does not mean that is the only factor).

Plus, you're forgetting that units like the Pink Horrors generate more warp charges than their mastery level. How do they fit into your theory?

What does that have to do with it (honest question)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

Which fits the "unless otherwise noted" state. All rules are as they are, unless otherwise overridden by another, more specific rule.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Plus, you're forgetting that units like the Pink Horrors generate more warp charges than their mastery level. How do they fit into your theory?

Because they only know 2 powers and are limited to 2 because of their ML? You're trying to find examples where ML doesn't limit Known Powers and in most cases it does. That's why it is a general rule in the rulebook. I'd even go so far as to say that it was intentionally vague because of these exceptions but that is assuming too much.

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect. The rules say the number of powers depends on mastery level, then we have guys that break that rule, yet the codex doesn't also grant them increased manifesting power. We're left to "assume" they meant powers are the limit despite that breaking the very rule itself with no explanation or reason for it. Codex does normally override the rulebook, but only if it specifically does so. Nothing specifically overrules the limits on Be'lakor's manifesting ability without throwing his mastery level out the window.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect. The rules say the number of powers depends on mastery level, then we have guys that break that rule, yet the codex doesn't also grant them increased manifesting power. We're left to "assume" they meant powers are the limit despite that breaking the very rule itself with no explanation or reason for it. Codex does normally override the rulebook, but only if it specifically does so. Nothing specifically overrules the limits on Be'lakor's manifesting ability without throwing his mastery level out the window.

Right, so the rule "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." doesn't explain anything. It is a vague rule that is mostly true due to each psyker being limited by his known powers and warp charges but isn't absolutely true.

RAW we can't actually determine anything from this rule.

HIWPI: I choose to ignore this sentence because it adds nothing to the rules at large. The rest of the psychic phase creates enough limitations on individual psykers to make the psychic phase playable and not busted. Having to keep track of known powers and which ones were already cast is enough of a limiting factor. Daemon factory is the only exception and frankly if someone wants to play it and keep track of which powers have been cast and how many per psyker then more power to them.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect.

ML determines warp charges and the number of warp charges generated dictates how many powers may be cast in any given psychic phase. There is your connection that you seem to fail to see.

The rules say the number of powers depends on mastery level, then we have guys that break that rule, yet the codex doesn't also grant them increased manifesting power. We're left to "assume" they meant powers are the limit despite that breaking the very rule itself with no explanation or reason for it. Codex does normally override the rulebook, but only if it specifically does so. Nothing specifically overrules the limits on Be'lakor's manifesting ability without throwing his mastery level out the window.

No rule is being broken. If there is a limit indicated for specific psykers in any given codex, that is more specific than the general psyker rules. Mastery level is still being used to determine warp charges however, even if the psyker cannot make use of them all for whatever reason.

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.

Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?

So you're saying you want to go ahead and cast 5 more powers using no Warp Charge dice? Be my guest. Let's see how many successes you roll on zero.

Being out of mana doesn't mean being out of spells per turn.

Yet the rules expressly forbid this:

BrB page 24 "If, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic Phase ends."

So who is wrong you or the rules?

 Lobomalo wrote:
What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level..

Which is the entire problem. Because what the rules don't say is that the limit a Psyker can use is equal to his Mastery Level.

That link simply doesn't exist. We are told the ML determines how many powers you can cast, but we are not told how it does so.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.

Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?

So you're saying you want to go ahead and cast 5 more powers using no Warp Charge dice? Be my guest. Let's see how many successes you roll on zero.

Being out of mana doesn't mean being out of spells per turn.

Yet the rules expressly forbid this:

BrB page 24 "If, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic Phase ends."

So who is wrong you or the rules?

Neither, I stated that because it's irrelevant to desire to manifest powers when no Warp Charge remain to be capable of doing so. The rules expressly forbid models from shooting more than one weapon, yet some are able to shoot two of them. You may continue manifesting powers until you reach one of the predetermined rule breaks, namely either running out of warp charges OR hitting your mastery level cap. The better question is why people think only one of these can ever apply. BOTH are capable of stopping you from being able to manifest. Either you hit your limit or your ran out of fuel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect.

ML determines warp charges and the number of warp charges generated dictates how many powers may be cast in any given psychic phase. There is your connection that you seem to fail to see.

Which was already addressed in the section you quoted (see my post beginning with Except). Thanks for making me repeat myself.

"The number of powers A PSYKER may manifest is determined by HIS mastery level."

A psyker = one, not every Psyker unit in the game combined
His mastery level = His bloody mastery level, not your entire army's combined mastery level

Kyutaru wrote:
The better question is why people think only one of these can ever apply. BOTH are capable of stopping you from being able to manifest. Either you hit your limit or your ran out of fuel.

You're absolutley right, there is no reason why both can't apply.

The problem being that the rule isn't clear that there is a casting limit, or if there is what it is.

Neither, I stated that because it's irrelevant to desire to manifest powers when no Warp Charge remain to be capable of doing so. The rules expressly forbid models from shooting more than one weapon, yet some are able to shoot two of them. You may continue manifesting powers until you reach one of the predetermined rule breaks, namely either running out of warp charges OR hitting your mastery level cap.

So you agree that the number of powers you can use is not solely dependant on Mastery Level as you previously claimed.

So the cap on number of powers (beyond Warp Charge) how are you determining that? As you agree that the number of powers a Psyker can manifest is dependent on more than JUST ML. So what rules are you using to determine the cap?

 insaniak wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level..

Which is the entire problem. Because what the rules don't say is that the limit a Psyker can use is equal to his Mastery Level.

That link simply doesn't exist. We are told the ML determines how many powers you can cast, but we are not told how it does so.

I see and you're right, it does not link the two together. Assuming so is more of an opinion than a fact. Would it be best to simply decide between your opponent at the time then?

Kyutaru wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect.

ML determines warp charges and the number of warp charges generated dictates how many powers may be cast in any given psychic phase. There is your connection that you seem to fail to see.

Which was already addressed in the section you quoted (see my post beginning with Except). Thanks for making me repeat myself.

"The number of powers A PSYKER may manifest is determined by HIS mastery level."

A psyker = one, not every Psyker unit in the game combined
His mastery level = His bloody mastery level, not your entire army's combined mastery level

That (the underlined) is not what the sentence says, so I imagine that must be why you cannot see the connection.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level..

Which is the entire problem. Because what the rules don't say is that the limit a Psyker can use is equal to his Mastery Level.

That link simply doesn't exist. We are told the ML determines how many powers you can cast, but we are not told how it does so.

I see and you're right, it does not link the two together. Assuming so is more of an opinion than a fact. Would it be best to simply decide between your opponent at the time then?

Until/unless FAQ/Erratta'd, this is the only way to go about it as the rules are not otherwise clear enough.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Neither, I stated that because it's irrelevant to desire to manifest powers when no Warp Charge remain to be capable of doing so. The rules expressly forbid models from shooting more than one weapon, yet some are able to shoot two of them. You may continue manifesting powers until you reach one of the predetermined rule breaks, namely either running out of warp charges OR hitting your mastery level cap.

So you agree that the number of powers you can use is not solely dependant on Mastery Level as you previously claimed?

Cite source, please. Stated that the number of powers is limited by Mastery Level. It is also limited by Warp Charges remaining. It is also limited by the unit being a Psyker in the first place. It is also limited by that unit actually existing in your army list. Ahriman is not capable of casting Psyker powers from outside the game.

Please stop disregarding limits relating to Mastery Level simply because there are ALSO limits related to Warp Charges. My examples above indicate areas where Mastery Level is irrelevant and limits nothing. The context I've been arguing is a scenario where ML and WC are both limiting manifestation, not your version of defenestrating Mastery Level in favor of another limit. It's not either or, it's and.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rorschach9 wrote:
That (the underlined) is not what the sentence says, so I imagine that must be why you cannot see the connection.

Must be hard for you to see any connections at all without quoting the rules. Check it out for yourself and don't get hung up on semantics. It clearly states "his" mastery level, not your entire army's mastery level combined. Warp Charges are generated at an army level, not individually by psykers, and so have no correlation to limiting a psyker's manifest attempts by HIS MASTERY LEVEL.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Cite source, please. Stated that the number of powers is limited by Mastery Level. It is also limited by Warp Charges remaining. It is also limited by the unit being a Psyker in the first place. It is also limited by that unit actually existing in your army list. Ahriman is not capable of casting Psyker powers from outside the game. 

Please stop disregarding limits relating to Mastery Level simply because there are ALSO limits related to Warp Charges. My examples above indicate areas where Mastery Level is irrelevant and limits nothing. The context I've been arguing is a scenario where ML and WCare both limiting manifestation, not your version of defenestrating Mastery Level in favor of another limit. It's not either or, it's and.

This Mastery level limit you have started talking about. Where can I find that?

But we agree "the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on" more than just Mastery Level? Do we agree? Or is Mastery level the ONLY thing that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast?

The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Without further information we cannot answer the first.

Obviously the second has been qualified and so we can, absolutely and without question, state 20.

This actually summarizes the problem of using the one statement about mastery level and the dependence on it.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

First question I can't answer as we don't have enough information.

The second question is 20.

 FlingitNow wrote:
This Mastery level limit you have started talking about. Where can I find that?

Started? Been arguing that from the first post. Read the thread. Better yet, since you have yet to post anything of your own but rather sit back sniping my claims, why don't you state your stance and how it is supported?

 FlingitNow wrote:
But we agree "the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on" more than just Mastery Level? Do we agree? Or is Mastery level the ONLY thing that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast?

Neither. It's an absolute that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast, further refined by the amount of energy you have to manifest with. You seem to be having trouble understanding the relationship of multiple restrictions overlapping each other. A square is also a rectangle. That doesn't mean it's ONLY a rectangle. However, to say a rectangle is a square would be ludicrous, which is exactly what claiming Warp Charges are what limit us does when I've proven in my examples that Mastery Level is irrelevant in those instances. Only instances where Mastery Level and Warp Charges remaining apply can be considered valid under the rules. As Mastery Level does not generate warp charges for an individual psyker, and as some psykers have more powers than they have mastery levels, there is no dependency on it for powers a psyker may use each turn. That contradicts the rule that states the number of powers does depend on Mastery Level.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Without further information we cannot answer the first.

Obviously the second has been qualified and so we can, absolutely and without question, state 20.

This actually summarizes the problem of using the one statement about mastery level and the dependence on it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

First question I can't answer as we don't have enough information.

The second question is 20.

Wow.

Just wow.

Hollismason wrote:

Wow.

Just wow.

I know, right?

It's almost like words have meanings, or something.

Kyutaru wrote: Neither. It's an absolute that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast, further refined by the amount of energy you have to manifest with. You seem to be having trouble understanding the relationship of multiple restrictions overlapping each other.

I think it is you that is having trouble understanding multiple restrictions and the word dependent. So a yes are no is the following statement true:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on more than just Mastery Level.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

This is a neat analogy. Let's mix things up a little, here are the rules of the game:

1) The maximum number of apples a person can eat depends on his age.
2) Each person gets a number of coins equal to his age + 1d100.
3) A person may use anywhere from 1 to 3 coins to purchase an apple.
4) After a person purchases an apple, he may purchase another.

For a person of 20 years of age, what do we know about the maximum number of apples he can eat? What if the 1d100 is 1? What if it is 100? Can the maximum number of apples a person can eat depend on that 1d100?

These rules should be interpreted like they are in any game. There are an infinite number of possibilities for things to depend on, and even a game of checkers can have rules longer than a phone book if it had to specify all the things that do not apply. If one restricts oneself to only the rules, as they are, what are the possibilities?

Hollismason

You seem to have some difficulty with apply the same wording to other situations. Hopefully this will help you understand with a more real life example:

The amount of pocket money my son gets each week depends on how much I earn.

lets say I earn £1000 each week, how much pocket money does my son get?

You seem to have difficulty with the English language.

Your question isn't the same as the one I put forth. I gave you all information you needed to answer both of those questions and yet you still willfully ignored it. All the variables to my question are known. We know that Michael is 20 years old, and that the number of apples people get is dependant on their age. That's not the same question.

I work with troubled teens, specifically kids who are on drugs, sex workers, I teach for GED training, these kids who have literally elementary education and have lived on the streets. Have a better understanding of the English language and are more negotiable than the people here. Like people I would expect to have difficult understanding word problems, or have trouble negotiating, don't.

If you can not answer that question, you are either being purposefully difficult, or you genuinely do not know how to answer it. I am not sure which is worse.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote: Neither. It's an absolute that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast, further refined by the amount of energy you have to manifest with. You seem to be having trouble understanding the relationship of multiple restrictions overlapping each other.

I think it is you that is having trouble understanding multiple restrictions and the word dependent. So a yes are no is the following statement true:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on more than just Mastery Level.

As I stated already, please make your case, do not simply deconstruct mine. You're rewording an existing line of the rules in order to demonstrate a combined ruling which shows you do not understand how multiple restrictions interact. Mastery Level is like the sides of a polygon being equal. Warp Charges is like there being exactly four 90 degree angles. Having both means you are a square as well as a rectangle. Having only one disqualifies you from being labelled as a square.

So if you would, address the following statement please...

Can the number of powers a Psyker may use each turn be dependent on his Mastery Level if his Mastery Level plays no part in restricting him? Please cite the rules that allow Be'lakor to overrule this basic requirement without quoting Warp Charges as the quantity your army possesses has no dependency on his mastery level.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.
The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.
Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Here's a better one for you.

"The amount of social security benefits a person can have each month depends on his age."

Are you coming up with a way to distribute social security benefits that IGNORES a person's age? Then it's wrong. The ideas shown here that demonstrate unlimited manifestation of known powers do exactly this.

Camp A:
- Assumes that Warp Charges are what limit us and we may manifest any number of powers known.
- Mastery Level has no bearing on the number of powers Be'lakor can manifest.
- Warp Charges are not a limiting factor dependent on a psyker's Mastery Level but are generated by the entire army.

Camp B:
- Understands that Mastery Level must limit us somehow and rejects interpretations that ignore it entirely.

Hollismason wrote:
I gave you all information you needed to answer both of those questions and yet you still willfully ignored it.

No, you really didn't.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

In what way is it dependent?
Is it 3 apples per year? One for every two years? What?
You absolutley did NOT say one apple per year, nor did your question suggest it.