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 grendel083 wrote:
And of course there is no rule to modify the Mastery Level. But that still doesn't mean that the number of powers that can be cast is equal to Mastery level. That is pure assumption.

Please cite an example of a number that is both dependent on Mastery Level and not modified from it. No assumptions necessary here. You either are doing more than the rules permit by modifying Mastery Level to arrive at powers per turn or you are going with an interpretation indifferent of Mastery Level entirely. Neither of those follow the RAW. Only one answer in the known universe does.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

Well you get 1000 or less. but there is no way to tell exactly how much.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn

Please cite your permission to have the Mastery Level equal the number of powers per turn.

I never stated they were equal, so I don't need to. You just quoted this silly boy!

We don't need to know that X = Y.

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW.
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW.
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency).
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is.

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

n can only be 1. X = Y.

Kyutaru wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
And of course there is no rule to modify the Mastery Level. But that still doesn't mean that the number of powers that can be cast is equal to Mastery level. That is pure assumption.

Please cite an example of a number that is both dependent on Mastery Level and not modified from it. No assumptions necessary here. You either are doing more than the rules permit by modifying Mastery Level to arrive at powers per turn or you are going with an interpretation indifferent of Mastery Level entirely. Neither of those follow the RAW. Only one answer in the known universe does.

Modifiing Mastery level? Where has this idea come from? Why would the Mastery Level ever need to be modified?

The Number of Powers is dependent on the Mastery Level.
How?
Cite the rule please.
Show me where it says 1:1

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

Well you get 1000 or less. but there is no way to tell exactly how much.

I could even get more than a £1000. My Mother could be a multibillionaire who's trying to show up my father who she's separated from so she pays me pocket money of twice his salary. It literally could be any number as all we know is that there is a formula containing Y where Y = My father's income.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn

Please cite your permission to have the Mastery Level equal the number of powers per turn.

I never stated they were equal, so I don't need to. You just quoted this silly boy!

We don't need to know that X = Y.

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW.
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW.
X = Y cannot be true as we have no permission to have Mastery Level equal to the number of powers per the RAW
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency).
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is.

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

n can only be 1. X = Y.

FTFY. This is the issue we have permission to have a formula we gave no permission for that formula to be anything. So we either make up a formula (as you have done) or accept that it could be anything and wait for further clarification in the rules.

After reading all of the replies to this thread, I think its probably safe to assume that everyone involved should agree to disagree as the rules are vague enough to spark this much of a debate. That said, I will add my opinion because why not.

After looking up the rules and their areas, I happen to agree with the camp that believes that you are not limited by your mastery level as to the number of spells you can manifest in a single turn. The reason for this is as follows:

I believe that the rule being quoted is meant to apply to the specific amount of powers that a psyker knows and not specific how much that psyker can cast in a turn. Everything in the section surrounding the quoted rule speaks to how powers are generated and it is "dependent" on mastery level. Later on in the psychic section, which is distinctly separated form the previous one, we are actually introduced to the rules about how the abilities are generated on battlefield. As has also been quoted in this thread, they in no way mention that there is a limit that is dictated by the ML of the psyker, only the amount of known spells and the remaining warp charges left.

Due to the separation of areas that the rules occur in, I believe that the reading of not being limited by mastery level is therefore most correct.

Also, as an interesting side note, I think the fact that the first rule uses the phrase "can use" instead of "can manifest" seems to also imply that there is a separate distinction here because otherwise the word "manifest" is used throughout the rules section when discussing actually putting that power to use in a game.

 grendel083 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
And of course there is no rule to modify the Mastery Level. But that still doesn't mean that the number of powers that can be cast is equal to Mastery level. That is pure assumption.

Please cite an example of a number that is both dependent on Mastery Level and not modified from it. No assumptions necessary here. You either are doing more than the rules permit by modifying Mastery Level to arrive at powers per turn or you are going with an interpretation indifferent of Mastery Level entirely. Neither of those follow the RAW. Only one answer in the known universe does.

Modifiing Mastery level? Where has this idea come from? Why would the Mastery Level ever need to be modified?

The Number of Powers is dependent on the Mastery Level.
How?
Cite the rule please.
Show me where it says 1:1

I never stated that the rules said the relationship was 1 to 1. That was simply proven using Calculus. If you have an issue with that, take it up with Isaac Newton.

Modifying Mastery Level comes from the dependency. The relationship is that X is dependent on Y and both X and Y are numbers. A relationship exists between the two numbers and we do not know what that relationship is. What we do know is everything I've been stating thus far, which leads to the proof that there can be only one instance where the relationship remains valid without contradicting the RAW. It just happens to be that relationship is also 1:1. The rules were cited in every step of the process, please read the thread or pay better attention.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn

Please cite your permission to have the Mastery Level equal the number of powers per turn.

I never stated they were equal, so I don't need to. You just quoted this silly boy!

We don't need to know that X = Y.

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW.
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW.
X = Y cannot be true as we have no permission to have Mastery Level equal to the number of powers per the RAW
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency).
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is.

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

n can only be 1. X = Y.

FTFY. This is the issue we have permission to have a formula we gave no permission for that formula to be anything. So we either make up a formula (as you have done) or accept that it could be anything and wait for further clarification in the rules.

Except I haven't made up any formula. I even began my assumption with X =/= Y. Math proved that to be incorrect, X does in fact equal Y. You seem to have a problem following so let me break it down yet again into baby steps:

- We know the formula is not listed.
- We know there is no explicit indication of the relationship between Mastery Level and number of powers.
- We know number of powers is dependent on Mastery Level, but not how. X ? Y
- We know the rules do not provide any formula that permits modifying Mastery Level to obtain number of powers per turn.
- We know that every number greater than Mastery Level and less than Mastery Level would be an arbitrarily arrived at answer with no RAW permission. X cannot be > Y or < Y.
- We know that Mastery Level is itself a number, one that does not need any sort of modification to be itself.
- We know that Mastery Level has a direct mathematical relationship with itself. X = X
- We know the Squeeze Theorem permits in math for a definitive exact answer to be arrived at when X cannot be > Y or < Y.
- We know by applying the Squeeze Theorem that X = Y.
- We know Calculus is a real field in the real world and not made up for laughs and giggles.
- We know that in every instance of the Squeeze Theorem's application, we are indeed dealing with a problem that is lacking information yet the answer can be determined nonetheless, as is the very purpose of the Theorem's existence, to prove the equality of the complementary statements.
- We know that when the Squeeze Theorem says X = Y because X cannot be > Y or < Y it is because math majors have already proven this to be true centuries ago.

Kyutaru wrote:
- We know that every number greater than Mastery Level and less than Mastery Level would be an arbitrarily arrived at answer with no RAW permission. X cannot be > Y or < Y.

Here's your flaw.
Why can the number of powers not be greater or lesser than mastery level?

You must also discount any value equal to Mastery Level for exactly the same reason then.

There's equally no permission for the value to be equal.

The problem isn't a lack of permission. Permission exists for the value to be what it is. It just isn't clear what that value is.

We know what it is referencing because it states in the Psykers rules what it's Mastery Level is. We do actually know that value.

There's no "mystery".

 grendel083 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
- We know that every number greater than Mastery Level and less than Mastery Level would be an arbitrarily arrived at answer with no RAW permission. X cannot be > Y or < Y.

Here's your flaw.
Why can the number of powers not be greater or lesser than mastery level?

Dependency. We know there exists a relationship between number of powers per turn and Mastery Level. You can insert any formula you want for that, it's simply an abstract at this point. However, 40k is a permissive ruleset. We have no permission or formula that can be used to determine Mastery Level. No formula means no computations, no calculations, no additions, no subtractions, nothing. Yes, even equality would be included in this, however we're referring to PERMISSIONS here. There is no permission to multiply Mastery Level by anything, but permission already exists to determine Mastery Level as itself.

 grendel083 wrote:
You must also discount any value equal to Mastery Level for exactly the same reason then.

Nope! That's the beauty of it! 40k grants no permission to adjust Mastery Level, and it grants no permission to leave it the same. Since we have no permission, we can't do anything to it, we just leave it alone. However, now we start looking at possible answers that fit within these rules. All numbers that exist greater than Mastery Level had to have been modified from it to achieve dependency, which is not permitted by the rules. All numbers that exist less than Mastery Level had to have been modified from it to achieve dependency, which there is no permission to do. Yet can Mastery Level be dependent on Mastery Level? Yes. Can Mastery Level be equal to Mastery Level? Yes. Do we know one of the two numbers that comprises the dependency formula, even if we aren't sure of any unknowns? Yes. Is there any possibility that doesn't also conflict with one of the statements I've already made? Yes. The only possibility is Mastery Level.

 grendel083 wrote:
There's equally no permission for the value to be equal.

We look to math to acquire that! Unless you say math cannot apply in 40k. As in, losing a wound on a 3 Wound model makes it go down to 7 Wounds.

 grendel083 wrote:
The problem isn't a lack of permission. Permission exists for the value to be what it is. It just isn't clear what that value is.

Of course it's unclear what the value is! That's why you have to use math to determine the only answer that can possibly fit all the requirements.

It's totally a lack of permission. Every instance other than Mastery Level being the answer breaks one of the previously mentioned rules of the game. This is because Mastery Level is the only number in the universe that can be dependent on Mastery Level without a formula being supplied. So until the FAQs provide us with a formula, there is only one possible answer.

Kyutaru wrote:
So until the FAQs provide us with a formula, there is only one possible answer.

That answer being: We are not given any way to determine how being dependant on the Mastery Level is actually applied.


I think this has gone around and around for long enough this time around. Let's all just move on and hope for an errata.