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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/09/us/war-gear-flows-to-police-departments.html?hp&_r=4

NEENAH, Wis. — Inside the municipal garage of this small lakefront city, parked next to the hefty orange snowplow, sits an even larger truck, this one painted in desert khaki. Weighing 30 tons and built to withstand land mines, the armored combat vehicle is one of hundreds showing up across the country, in police departments big and small.

The 9-foot-tall armored truck was intended for an overseas battlefield. But as President Obama ushers in the end of what he called America’s “long season of war,” the former tools of combat — M-16 rifles, grenade launchers, silencers and more — are ending up in local police departments, often with little public notice.

During the Obama administration, according to Pentagon data, police departments have received tens of thousands of machine guns; nearly 200,000 ammunition magazines; thousands of pieces of camouflage and night-vision equipment; and hundreds of silencers, armored cars and aircraft.

The equipment has been added to the armories of police departments that already look and act like military units. Police SWAT teams are now deployed tens of thousands of times each year, increasingly for routine jobs. Masked, heavily armed police officers in Louisiana raided a nightclub in 2006 as part of a liquor inspection. In Florida in 2010, officers in SWAT gear and with guns drawn carried out raids on barbershops that mostly led only to charges of “barbering without a license.”


When the military’s mine-resistant trucks began arriving in large numbers last year, Neenah and places like it were plunged into the middle of a debate over whether the post-9/11 era had obscured the lines between soldier and police officer.

“It just seems like ramping up a police department for a problem we don’t have,” said Shay Korittnig, a father of two who spoke against getting the armored truck at a recent public meeting in Neenah. “This is not what I was looking for when I moved here, that my children would view their local police officer as an M-16-toting, SWAT-apparel-wearing officer.”

A quiet city of about 25,000 people, Neenah has a violent crime rate that is far below the national average. Neenah has not had a homicide in more than five years.

“Somebody has to be the first person to say ‘Why are we doing this?’ ” said William Pollnow Jr., a Neenah city councilman who opposed getting the new police truck.

Neenah’s police chief, Kevin E. Wilkinson, said he understood the concern. At first, he thought the anti-mine truck was too big. But the department’s old armored car could not withstand high-powered gunfire, he said.

“I don’t like it. I wish it were the way it was when I was a kid,” he said. But he said the possibility of violence, however remote, required taking precautions. “We’re not going to go out there as Officer Friendly with no body armor and just a handgun and say ‘Good enough.’ ”

Congress created the military-transfer program in the early 1990s, when violent crime plagued America’s cities and the police felt outgunned by drug gangs. Today, crime has fallen to its lowest levels in a generation, the wars have wound down, and despite current fears, the number of domestic terrorist attacks has declined sharply from the 1960s and 1970s.

Continue reading the main story
Police departments, though, are adding more firepower and military gear than ever. Some, especially in larger cities, have used federal grant money to buy armored cars and other tactical gear. And the free surplus program remains a favorite of many police chiefs who say they could otherwise not afford such equipment. Chief Wilkinson said he expects the police to use the new truck rarely, when the department’s SWAT team faces an armed standoff or serves a warrant on someone believed to be dangerous.

Today, Chief Wilkinson said, the police are trained to move in and save lives during a shooting or standoff, in contrast to a generation ago — before the Columbine High School massacre and others that followed it — when they responded by setting up a perimeter and either negotiating with, or waiting out, the suspect.

The number of SWAT teams has skyrocketed since the 1980s, according to studies by Peter B. Kraska, an Eastern Kentucky University professor who has been researching the issue for decades.

The ubiquity of SWAT teams has changed not only the way officers look, but also the way departments view themselves. Recruiting videos feature clips of officers storming into homes with smoke grenades and firing automatic weapons. In Springdale, Ark., a police recruiting video is dominated by SWAT clips, including officers throwing a flash grenade into a house and creeping through a field in camouflage.

In South Carolina, the Richland County Sheriff’s Department’s website features its SWAT team, dressed in black with guns drawn, flanking an armored vehicle that looks like a tank and has a mounted .50-caliber gun. Capt. Chris Cowan, a department spokesman, said the vehicle “allows the department to stay in step with the criminals who are arming themselves more heavily every day.” He said police officers had taken it to schools and community events, where it was a conversation starter.


“All of a sudden, we start relationships with people,” he said.

Not everyone agrees that there is a need for such vehicles. Ronald E. Teachman, the police chief in South Bend, Ind., said he decided not to request a mine-resistant vehicle for his city. "I go to schools,” he said. “But I bring ‘Green Eggs and Ham.’ ”

The Pentagon program does not push equipment onto local departments. The pace of transfers depends on how much unneeded equipment the military has, and how much the police request. Equipment that goes unclaimed typically is destroyed. So police chiefs say their choice is often easy: Ask for free equipment that would otherwise be scrapped, or look for money in their budgets to prepare for an unlikely scenario. Most people understand, police officers say.

"When you explain that you’re preparing for something that may never happen, they get it,” said Capt. Tiger Parsons of the Buchanan County Sheriff’s Office in northwest Missouri, which recently received a mine-resistant truck.

Pentagon data suggest how the police are arming themselves for such worst-case scenarios. Since 2006, the police in six states have received magazines that carry 100 rounds of M-16 ammunition, allowing officers to fire continuously for three times longer than normal. Twenty-two states obtained equipment to detect buried land mines.

In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.

“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.

The police in 38 states have received silencers, which soldiers use to muffle gunfire during raids and sniper attacks. Lauren Wild, the sheriff in rural Walsh County, N.D., said he saw no need for silencers. When told he had 40 of them for his county of 11,000 people, Sheriff Wild confirmed it with a colleague and said he would look into it. "I don’t recall approving them,” he said.

Some officials are reconsidering their eagerness to take the gear. Last year, the sheriff’s office in Oxford County, Maine, told county officials that it wanted a mine-resistant vehicle because Maine’s western foothills “face a previously unimaginable threat from terrorist activities.”

County commissioners approved the request, but recently rescinded it at the sheriff’s request. Scott Cole, the county administrator, said some people expressed concerns about the truck, and the police were comfortable that a neighboring community could offer its vehicle in an emergency.

At the Neenah City Council, Mr. Pollnow is pushing for a requirement that the council vote on all equipment transfers. When he asks about the need for military equipment, he said the answer is always the same: It protects police officers.

“Who’s going to be against that? You’re against the police coming home safe at night?” he said. “But you can always present a worst-case scenario. You can use that as a framework to get anything.”

Chief Wilkinson said he was not interested in militarizing Neenah. But officers are shot, even in small towns. If there were an affordable way to protect his people without the new truck, he would do it.

“I hate having our community divided over a law enforcement issue like this. But we are,” he said. “It drives me to my knees in prayer for the safety of this community every day. And it convinced me that this was the right thing for our community.”

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Damnit, America...

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In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.

“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.


Are you fething kidding me? Who the feth in the military is building IEDs? I can see some people knowing how, but a lot? And how the feth is it justifiable to suggest servicemen are going to become terrorists?

If this article isn't a pile of made up bs...well then I am completely justified in distrusting and disliking police. This is complete insanity.

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Because police in the United States have no reason to be concerned for their safety.

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Because that is an occurrence so common now that it wouldn't even be reported as more than a footnote in the afternoon news.

Oh wait.

Prestor Jon wrote:
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Jefffar wrote:
Because police in the United States have no reason to be concerned for their safety.


My god. Some people shot at the police, with HANDGUNS!?


Only reasonable response.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:09:28


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They produce MATV's and MRAP's in Appleton, WI. Up the road road from Neenah. In fact, one of the factory is behind the reserve center on Ballard Rd. Its a pretty good size holding area for them. It has has been known that MATV's were going to be issued out to LEO agencies in mid northern states.

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Jefffar wrote:
Because police in the United States have no reason to be concerned for their safety.


And who protects us from gun-happy police?

   
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 trexmeyer wrote:
In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.

“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.


Are you fething kidding me? Who the feth in the military is building IEDs? I can see some people knowing how, but a lot? And how the feth is it justifiable to suggest servicemen are going to become terrorists?

If this article isn't a pile of made up bs...well then I am completely justified in distrusting and disliking police. This is complete insanity.


Well the US government views returning veterans as a terrorist risk to this country...

Police getting military equipment...

so police state soon?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
And who protects us from gun-happy police?


No one. Just remeber that if the Cop injures you it always your fault.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:26:48


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Quite a few vets are armed to

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 Ninjacommando wrote:


Well the US government views returning veterans as a terrorist risk to this country...

Police getting military equipment...

so police state soon?




Nah... eventually it'll be too expensive for the po-po to keep up with the Jones.

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Chicago, Illinois

I think thats everyone's que if anyone is not native to this country to get the hell out before we got another rouge military force. (Stupid post)

Truly people need to watch more movies. VAN DAMN

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:25:41


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 Asherian Command wrote:
I think thats everyone's que if anyone is not native to this country to get the hell out before we got another rouge military force.

wat?

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He's got to be drunk posting. That made zero sense.

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 whembly wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
I think thats everyone's que if anyone is not native to this country to get the hell out before we got another rouge military force.

wat?


*Obscure reference to movie*

Sorry. About that. but anyway back on topic. Giving any military weapons to the PO-PO is kind of dumb, because the police forces here in my area are quite trigger happy. And boy are they itching for action, so giving them weapons like that is stupid.

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They seriously think that people are using IEDs against the police? wtf?

That's a major insult to suggest that they need to ready themselves against the vets returning from the middle east, this isn't fething Rambo.

IEDs shouldn't be a police concern as we don't have roadside bombings in any sort of daily situation and even if we did what good does an armor vehicle do? Charging through exploding streets to where and what cause? Military troops need those vehicles because their movements are continuously in enemy territory and subject to constant potential attack. Sure it makes the police officers feel safe to roll up to a bank robbery or a drug house in a super armored carrier but the threat levels are entirely different, the intended use is for soldiers in a full on war zone, police use it's overkill as they could use an armored van.

Second thing is that crap is expensive, even getting it as military surplus military vehicles are tremendously expensive to maintain. That means the police departments are upping their operation budgets and that all comes out of taxpayer pockets. There are so many other things that need priority before we start paying police officers to joyride around in military vehicles and stroke their paramilitary wang. It makes me sick when cops start pretending they are "operators" and not civil servants. Leave that crap to the military.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:39:40


 
   
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Vehicle itself is not that expensive of an upkeep as long one knows how to drive it. Its the "Go to War" mission equipment that add's up. SINGARS, Blue Force Tracker, CROW, RHINO (not the bed cover), etc.

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Maintaining the vehicles is expensive, armored vehicles can't be taken to the standard auto shop for repairs not can they be taken to you local tire place every time they need a new wheel. They require a bit more work then you standard ASE mechanic. That means bringing on an extra mechanic that has those skills. Sourcing parts for repair and service is also more expensive as they are a non standard item and not stocked by local supply and vendors. I worked as a mechanic in a service shop and we'd occasionally get in municipal vehicles, we could service some stuff but since most of their vehicles required higher rated tires for safety concerns they are much more expensive then comparable civilian vehicles. Tires on an average police cruiser run about $450 a piece, ambulance tires are around $1400, the tires on an armored vehicle likely several thousand each. Keeping the vehicle in running order would likely equal the budget for maintaining several normal squads, not to mention factoring in how much more gas armored military vehicles tend to consume even just with occasional use. An 11 ton armored vehicle is not cheap to maintain.
   
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 trexmeyer wrote:
In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.

“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.


Are you fething kidding me? Who the feth in the military is building IEDs? I can see some people knowing how, but a lot? And how the feth is it justifiable to suggest servicemen are going to become terrorists?

If this article isn't a pile of made up bs...well then I am completely justified in distrusting and disliking police. This is complete insanity.


Military dumps the gear so it can buy new gear.
Police want gear because its tacticool and Sheriff Roscoe went all hah hah hah at them last year when the sheriffs got their tacticool B52, and the Police want to keep up.

Yea its because of mines...


THE PROBLEM IS a three ponged nexus of bad day:
1. Tacticool builds the Tacticool occupier mindset
2. No knock warrant searches have expanded to speeding tickets resulting in people getting killed.
3. Militia types get more militia'y, and regular folks start viewing the PoPo as an occupying force, just like in LA (outside of cutesy Hollywood areas).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Because police in the United States have no reason to be concerned for their safety.


And who protects us from gun-happy police?



No one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 19:56:03


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I like how it's referred to as wargear, and not "Heavily armored vehicles." Spent too much time playing 40k?

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“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.


sounds like this guy has read to many Jack Ryan novels.

But I don't know this kind of seems like a grey area will at least some parts. if you look at it one way it seems really crazy especially one you already have stories of police carrying out all kinds of brutality against innocent people armed with nothing but pistols and clubs, it makes you think what kind of horrible things could happen when some trigger happy police get carried away with a armored truck. But on the other hand what if another Waco siege happens or a Ruby Ridge then the police seem like their in the right for having this kind of stuff around for something like that. Anyway I'm not an expert so don't quote me on this.

Here are the links to the Waco siege and Ruby ridge that I mentioned above if anyone is interested.

Ruby Ridge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

Waco siege http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

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Maintaining the vehicles is expensive, armored vehicles can't be taken to the standard auto shop for repairs not can they be taken to you local tire place every time they need a new wheel. They require a bit more work then you standard ASE mechanic. That means bringing on an extra mechanic that has those skills. Sourcing parts for repair and service is also more expensive as they are a non standard item and not stocked by local supply and vendors. I worked as a mechanic in a service shop and we'd occasionally get in municipal vehicles, we could service some stuff but since most of their vehicles required higher rated tires for safety concerns they are much more expensive then comparable civilian vehicles. Tires on an average police cruiser run about $450 a piece, ambulance tires are around $1400, the tires on an armored vehicle likely several thousand each. Keeping the vehicle in running order would likely equal the budget for maintaining several normal squads, not to mention factoring in how much more gas armored military vehicles tend to consume even just with occasional use. An 11 ton armored vehicle is not cheap to maintain.


Except that MRAP/MATV is not going to some "local" vehicle repair shop. Maintenance contracts are going to go with the vehicles from Oshkosh. They also outsource maintenance contracts to a few others contract firms. Or the state can, after bingo maintenance contracts, service the vehicles at National Guard "Third Shop" for military vehicles since they fall under "Heavy Wheel Mechanic MOS" domain. I have yet to see a old school HUMVEE or up armor go to a local repair shop for maintenance

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Ahhh... comforting to know that police agencies around the country view me as the enemy now...

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 djones520 wrote:
Ahhh... comforting to know that police agencies around the country view me as the enemy now...


That's what you get for serving your country.

Also, did you relocate, or am I thinking of someone else? I thought you were at Scott.

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 daedalus wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Ahhh... comforting to know that police agencies around the country view me as the enemy now...


That's what you get for serving your country.

Also, did you relocate, or am I thinking of someone else? I thought you were at Scott.


I was. Just moved here last month.

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I have little issue with recycling. The vehicles aren't the concern. Its the actual weaponry that is a problem.

Let the local SWAT have some armored cars, but don't give them military grade ordinance.


Hey, what was that people said about the 2nd amendment being unnecessary?

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 Jihadin wrote:
He is now attach to the "Chokin Chicken"


I detect a bit of envy. AIR ASSAULT!

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