Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just so we're completely clear, this is a discussion soley on RAW, not RAI. In an actual game, I probably wouldn't even consider this unless GW clarified or everyone agreed on the RAI, but as far as RAW goes...

The wording for Runic Weapons in the FAQ says that 'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.'
Not, 'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to *their* Deny the Witch rolls.'

Rules As Written, does this mean that if you have a model with a Runic Weapon, that they add 1 to all Deny The Witch rolls taken, period? This means friendly, unfriendly, etc.
As far as I can tell, yes, everyone gets Deny the Witch with 1 added to it for every model with a Runic Weapon.

No. You only add the bonus when the guy with the runic weapon is making the Deny the Witch.

I'm not sure how you get from 'the model adds +1 to their rolls' to 'this means you add +1 to all rolls...'

So when you deny powers which arent targetted at any of your units, where are you getting permission to a models rules?. You are told you cannot use any modifers to the roll as well.

 insaniak wrote:
No. You only add the bonus when the guy with the runic weapon is making the Deny the Witch.

I'm not sure how you get from 'the model adds +1 to their rolls' to 'this means you add +1 to all rolls...'

It doesn't say '+1 to their rolls.' It says '+1 to rolls.'
(Did you actually read my original post? I explained that part pretty clearly.)

My argument is that the wording implies use on Deny the Witch rolls in general, not Deny the Witch rolls only taken by the Rune Priest, since at no point does the rule ever state that it only applies to him or his unit.

Insaniak is correct, if you read my post. It says no modifers to the rolls, the only part you can use modifers if it is targetted at one of your units.

MarkyMark wrote:
Insaniak is correct, if you read my post. It says no modifers to the rolls, the only part you can use modifers if it is targetted at one of your units.

Specific rules override general. Runic Weapons say that they add +1 to Deny the Witch rolls, and don't clarify which ones. Logically it would make sense for this to only apply to Rune Priests, but RAW it applies to any and all Deny the Witch rolls.

Waaaghpower wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Insaniak is correct, if you read my post. It says no modifers to the rolls, the only part you can use modifers if it is targetted at one of your units.

Specific rules override general. Runic Weapons say that they add +1 to Deny the Witch rolls, .

...for the model with the weapon.

If the Rune Priest is not the target of the power, he's not the one making the roll.

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Insaniak is correct, if you read my post. It says no modifers to the rolls, the only part you can use modifers if it is targetted at one of your units.

Specific rules override general. Runic Weapons say that they add +1 to Deny the Witch rolls, .

...for the model with the weapon.

If the Rune Priest is not the target of the power, he's not the one making the roll.

Do me a favor. Open up the FAQ, read what it says. Or read my quote, from the FAQ.
Then point to me the part where it says 'His' Deny the Witch rolls. As far as I can see, it says (Exact quote, again

A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.

Not 'His Deny the Witch rolls.' Not 'Deny the Witch rolls taken by his unit.' Just 'Deny the Witch rolls.' Unless you can explain to me how a generic statement like that refers to any specific model, RAW states that it adds to every Deny the Witch roll. (Once again, I am obviously not going to play it this way, it just appears to be the RAW.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
' Unless you can explain to me how a generic statement like that refers to any specific model, ...

Look at the first two words of the rule you quoted.

That model adds the bonus to deny rolls. But that model only makes those rolls if he is the target of the power.

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
' Unless you can explain to me how a generic statement like that refers to any specific model, ...

Look at the first two words of the rule you quoted.

That model adds the bonus to deny rolls. But that model only makes those rolls if he is the target of the power.

So rules can only affect the unit who has the rules? So a model with a Boltgun can only shoot himself? Shadow in the Warp only affects the model giving off Shadow in the Warp? That logic makes no sense. Just because a model gives a buff doesn't mean that he is the only model who can use that buff.

A model can only make a DTW with modifiers if they are the target of the power. Otherwise that model has no permission to DTW.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So rules can only affect the unit who has the rules?

If they're worded in such a way as to only affect that unit, yes.

If a rule says 'A model with Artificer Armour has a 2+ save' then that model has a 2+ save. The save isn't conferred to anyone else just for that model existing in your army.

You're reading 'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls' as 'If your army includes a model with a Runic Weapon, add 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.' Which is a completely different statement.

A model with a Runic Weapon gets a bonus on Deny the Witch. That bonus will only apply if that model is Denying the Witch, because the rule refers to that model specifically. You don't get the bonus just for having him in your army.

So your saying it just blatantly adds +1to DTW. cool. If I'm ever playing you with your space wolves I'll be sure to use it for my DTW witch rolls too.

yellowfever wrote:
So your saying it just blatantly adds +1to DTW. cool. If I'm ever playing you with your space wolves I'll be sure to use it for my DTW witch rolls too.

That's pretty much what I'm saying, yeah. I even said in my first post that this technically means friendly and enemy units.

If they're worded in such a way as to only affect that unit, yes.

If a rule says 'A model with Artificer Armour has a 2+ save' then that model has a 2+ save. The save isn't conferred to anyone else just for that model existing in your army.

What if the rule were worded to say 'If a model has Artificer Armor, armor saves are taken on a 2+?' Because that's a completely different meaning, and the one used by the rule. You are all claiming that the rule states only the Rune Priest is affected, but nowhere in the rule does it state that. Every other rule I know of that only targets the bearer/the bearer and his unit, specifically states as such. Runic Weapons? Nope. Never says it anywhere. Nowhere in the rule does it say that it only affects the bearer. It says that if a Runic Weapon is held by a model, Deny the Witch rolls get a +1. Not his DTW rolls, not his unit's DTW rolls, just Deny the Witch rolls, and there is absolutely no wording to imply otherwise.


Once again, obviously: RAI is that the Rune Priest is the only one who gets +1 DTW.

Waaaghpower wrote:
what if the rule were worded to say 'If a model has Artificer Armor, armor saves are taken on a 2+?' Because that's a completely different meaning, and the one used by the rule.

That's not at all the wording used by the Runic Weapon rule.


"'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.'"
So the equivalent would be
"'A model with artificer armour takes armour saves at 2+"


What you're saying is ''If a model has a Runic Weapon, add 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.'

Which is not at all the same thing.

@op
so if you have 4 rune priest (acording to your logic) you get a 2+ deny the witch that would stop filthy deamons

rereading the faq and rules on denying i must agree whit the op raw he is correct there is no reference his unit must be targeted to use it

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
what if the rule were worded to say 'If a model has Artificer Armor, armor saves are taken on a 2+?' Because that's a completely different meaning, and the one used by the rule.

That's not at all the wording used by the Runic Weapon rule.


"'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.'"
So the equivalent would be
"'A model with artificer armour takes armour saves at 2+"


What you're saying is ''If a model has a Runic Weapon, add 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.'

Which is not at all the same thing.

Insaniak has it right. The lack of a comma in that sentence changes the meaning of the entire sentence.

So by your logic, though GW KNEW they where changing how deny the witch will work in the seventh edition , in their infinite wisdom they chose to drop a comma and one word to make it so a space wolf can deny the witch on blessings and such on a 5 up instead of telling us these bonus are used for both targeted psychic powers and non targeted psychic powers.

IMHO you may not ever add bonus's to the non targeted psychic power until a unit, model or toy is given express permission to do so. You sir do not have that permission.