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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





So I'm glancing through my friends codex because we like to let other people look through our stuff and suggest ideas to improve our armies. This I think is helpful as it is impossible to see all possible situations when you are so involved with your own army, at least this is what I think.

Anyway, I ran into this.

For the Ravenwing Attack Squadron, it allows the Sergeant or the Veteran Sergeant to take any weapon from the Melee Weapons or Ranged Weapons sections of the wargear.

Before I get to this though, I need to set up the scenario. The full squad of 6 bikes all have replaced their Bolt Pistols with Chain Swords and the Sergeant as well as one of the normal Bikers have taken one of the additional weapons they can purchase, for this example let us make them both Flamers.

So the Sergeant has a Chain Sword and a Flamer and is also allowed to take any Melee/Ranged weapon from the wargear list. Turning to this page.

Under the Melee Weapons category it states that: A model can replace one weapon with one of the following.

Chain Sword
Lightning Claw
Power Weapon
Power Fist
Thunder Hammer

The Sergeant decides to take one of these melee weapons by giving up the flamer in exchange for a Power Sword.

So now he has a Power Sword and a Chain Sword.

Is this legal for my friend to do because if it is I am sure he would want to know this?

Also does this give him the dual wield bonus for Assaulting?

Also.

Say the Sergeant kept the default Bolt Pistol, bought a Flamer and then replaced it with a Plasma Pistol. Would he get any bonuses for using two pistols, is there a bonus for this at all?

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

The Sarge cannot take a Flamer, only regular Bikers.

Assuming, the Sarge had a way to take a second weapon (some argue that you can trade in the bike's twin-linked boltgun, but that is an argument for another thread), then having a Power Sword and Chainsword, he would have an extra Attack for two weapons.

As for dual-wielding Pistols, you'd want to check out the "Gunslinger" rule (not sure on page).

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in pt
Sister Vastly Superior







The codex says "Any two Ravenwing Bikers may take one of the following:" The sergeant is a Ravenwing Sergeant, not a Ravenwing Biker, so you cannot give him a flamer.

I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights. 
   
Made in ca
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

** Mega ninja'd

1 - Not entirely relevant but replacing the bolt pistols with chainswords is pointless (Bolt pistol counts as a CCW if you have no other CCW, plus can be used at range, so the swap makes no sense).

2- The Sgt cannot take a flamer. Ravenwing Bikers may take one. Ravenwing Sgt is a different profile and has his separate rules.

3- That said, the sgt can swap any weapon he is equipped with (Bolt Pistol) for one of the melee or ranged weapons in the wargear list. Since he doesn't have the option to buy the flamer, he only has the bolt pistol to swap out and will only have one weapon anyway (plus the bikes TL boltgun).

I suppose it could be argued that the wording is vague enough you could swap the TL Boltgun and/or grenades and/or bolt pistol and so end up with 2 melee weapons.

If you have 2 melee weapons (Chainsword + Power Sword for example) yes, you get +1 attack in assault.

2 pistols also gives the gunslinger bonus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 19:18:24


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 Happyjew wrote:
The Sarge cannot take a Flamer, only regular Bikers.

Assuming, the Sarge had a way to take a second weapon (some argue that you can trade in the bike's twin-linked boltgun, but that is an argument for another thread), then having a Power Sword and Chainsword, he would have an extra Attack for two weapons.

As for dual-wielding Pistols, you'd want to check out the "Gunslinger" rule (not sure on page).


Edited for foot in mouth

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 19:25:09


In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in ca
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

 Lobomalo wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
The Sarge cannot take a Flamer, only regular Bikers.

Assuming, the Sarge had a way to take a second weapon (some argue that you can trade in the bike's twin-linked boltgun, but that is an argument for another thread), then having a Power Sword and Chainsword, he would have an extra Attack for two weapons.

As for dual-wielding Pistols, you'd want to check out the "Gunslinger" rule (not sure on page).


The codex doesn't state whether or not it is a regular biker or the sergeant, it just says model.

"Any model may replace his Bolt Pistol with a Chain Sword - Free" Page 101 of the Dark Angels Codex


Yes, absolutely you can swap the sgts pistol for a chainsword, but that has nothing to do with taking the flamer or other special weapon in the list. This does;

"Up to two Ravenwing Bikers may take one of the following:"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 19:19:57


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

 Lobomalo wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
The Sarge cannot take a Flamer, only regular Bikers.

Assuming, the Sarge had a way to take a second weapon (some argue that you can trade in the bike's twin-linked boltgun, but that is an argument for another thread), then having a Power Sword and Chainsword, he would have an extra Attack for two weapons.

As for dual-wielding Pistols, you'd want to check out the "Gunslinger" rule (not sure on page).


The codex doesn't state whether or not it is a regular biker or the sergeant, it just says model.

"Any model may replace his Bolt Pistol with a Chain Sword - Free" Page 101 of the Dark Angels Codex


You'll notice I said nothing about swapping the Pistol for the Chainsword. Only that the Sarge cannot take a Flamer.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 Happyjew wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
The Sarge cannot take a Flamer, only regular Bikers.

Assuming, the Sarge had a way to take a second weapon (some argue that you can trade in the bike's twin-linked boltgun, but that is an argument for another thread), then having a Power Sword and Chainsword, he would have an extra Attack for two weapons.

As for dual-wielding Pistols, you'd want to check out the "Gunslinger" rule (not sure on page).


The codex doesn't state whether or not it is a regular biker or the sergeant, it just says model.

"Any model may replace his Bolt Pistol with a Chain Sword - Free" Page 101 of the Dark Angels Codex


You'll notice I said nothing about swapping the Pistol for the Chainsword. Only that the Sarge cannot take a Flamer.


Whoops, did not see that lol, so he can't get the dual wield then as the best I can get for him is one Power Sword

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

 Lobomalo wrote:
Whoops, did not see that lol, so he can't get the dual wield then as the best I can get for him is one Power Sword


Theoretically it is possible.

One could argue that it is legal to trade away the bike's gun, or either a Krak Grenade or Melta Bomb. All three are technically weapons. Personally, I don't think it is intended to work that way, and I've never met someone in RL who thinks it works that way either. Online however, there have been discussions on whether or not you can swap them out.

Another theoretical way would be to trade the bolt pistol for a combi-weapon, then trade each part again, using a bizarre method as follows. Bolt Pistol for Combi-flamer. Boltgun portion of Combi-flamer for Chainsword. Chainsword for Plasma Pistol. Flamer portion of Combi-flamer for Power Sword.

Again this is all theoretical, and if you tried to pull it off, at best you might get a few looks of "Seriously dude?"

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Yeah I don't think we will go for theoreticals.

Trying to build a list for him now and not sure if the Veteran Sergeant is better with a Combi-weapon or a Power Sword.

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

No upgrades at all he won't make it close enough yo use them

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Lungpickle wrote:
No upgrades at all he won't make it close enough yo use them


That has yet to be a problem in any game I have seen him play so far. Though he hasn't played against Dark Eldar, Necrons or Orks yet

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in pr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Minneapolis, MN

 Lobomalo wrote:
Yeah I don't think we will go for theoreticals.

Trying to build a list for him now and not sure if the Veteran Sergeant is better with a Combi-weapon or a Power Sword.

Combi-weapon, all the way. The power sword is a questionable buy even on dedicated CC models (and space marine veterans are not THAT good at CC).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 20:13:41


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 DanielBeaver wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:
Yeah I don't think we will go for theoreticals.

Trying to build a list for him now and not sure if the Veteran Sergeant is better with a Combi-weapon or a Power Sword.

Combi-weapon, all the way. The power sword is a questionable buy even on dedicated CC models (and space marine veterans are not THAT good at CC).


I see. Thanks a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lobomalo wrote:
 DanielBeaver wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:
Yeah I don't think we will go for theoreticals.

Trying to build a list for him now and not sure if the Veteran Sergeant is better with a Combi-weapon or a Power Sword.

Combi-weapon, all the way. The power sword is a questionable buy even on dedicated CC models (and space marine veterans are not THAT good at CC).


I see. Thanks a lot.


Seeing as the Bikes have the Hammer of Wrath Special Rule, how would a Thunder Hammer work instead of a Combi-weapon. The goal of the squad wouldn't specifically be to engage in melee, but when it is to the units advantage, would it hurt?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/11 21:14:10


In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Lobomalo wrote:
Seeing as the Bikes have the Hammer of Wrath Special Rule, how would a Thunder Hammer work instead of a Combi-weapon. The goal of the squad wouldn't specifically be to engage in melee, but when it is to the units advantage, would it hurt?

Hammer of Wrath doesn't benefit at all from a Thunder Hammer...

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Sorry, where in my sentence did I say that they did? If you read the original post I put, I am trying to find a way to give Librarians on bikes an additional attack when in melee, hence why the conversation went to whether Combi-weapon or Bolt Pistol would be better.

I already have the answer and have made adjustments accordingly.

I don't know why you think I am saying Hammer of Wrath doesn't benefit from a Thunder Hammer as I never said it did.

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Lobomalo wrote:
Sorry, where in my sentence did I say that they did? If you read the original post I put, I am trying to find a way to give Librarians on bikes an additional attack when in melee, hence why the conversation went to whether Combi-weapon or Bolt Pistol would be better.

I already have the answer and have made adjustments accordingly.

I don't know why you think I am saying Hammer of Wrath doesn't benefit from a Thunder Hammer as I never said it did.

Because you said "Seeing as the Bikes have the Hammer of Wrath Special Rule, how would a Thunder Hammer work instead of a Combi-weapon."
Why does it matter if Bikes have Hammer of Wrath unless you think HoW benefits from a Thunder Hammer?
Your question included irrelevant information and you're wondering why I took it for something other than what you meant? Really?
What you meant to ask is "how would a Thunder Hammer work instead of a Combi-weapon." which is a Tactics question, not a rules question.

edit: Also, the quoted post is the first mention of the word Librarian (or the three letters Lib in succession) so no - the OP was not about Librarians. It was about Vet Sergeants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 15:41:21


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Either way, I have my answer. Your comment has indeed been unhelpful and mostly argumentative.

Hope your day gets better, not good to be so argumentative

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

Rorschach9 wrote:
** Mega ninja'd

1 - Not entirely relevant but replacing the bolt pistols with chainswords is pointless (Bolt pistol counts as a CCW if you have no other CCW, plus can be used at range, so the swap makes no sense).


Modeling.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in ca
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

 don_mondo wrote:
Rorschach9 wrote:
** Mega ninja'd

1 - Not entirely relevant but replacing the bolt pistols with chainswords is pointless (Bolt pistol counts as a CCW if you have no other CCW, plus can be used at range, so the swap makes no sense).


Modeling.


Yes, but that is not rules and game play discussion. Separate thing.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

Rorschach9 wrote:
 don_mondo wrote:
Rorschach9 wrote:
** Mega ninja'd

1 - Not entirely relevant but replacing the bolt pistols with chainswords is pointless (Bolt pistol counts as a CCW if you have no other CCW, plus can be used at range, so the swap makes no sense).


Modeling.


Yes, but that is not rules and game play discussion. Separate thing.


And yet it is why they put that option in there. Really. Because some players have/had older models equipped in what used to be the only thing they came with or whatever. Ruleswise, sure, it's pointless, makes no difference to actual gameplay. Never said any different. But it DOES make sense if you look at it from a modeling standpoint. That is all.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in ca
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

 don_mondo wrote:
Rorschach9 wrote:
 don_mondo wrote:
Rorschach9 wrote:
** Mega ninja'd

1 - Not entirely relevant but replacing the bolt pistols with chainswords is pointless (Bolt pistol counts as a CCW if you have no other CCW, plus can be used at range, so the swap makes no sense).


Modeling.


Yes, but that is not rules and game play discussion. Separate thing.


And yet it is why they put that option in there. Really. Because some players have/had older models equipped in what used to be the only thing they came with or whatever. Ruleswise, sure, it's pointless, makes no difference to actual gameplay. Never said any different. But it DOES make sense if you look at it from a modeling standpoint. That is all.


Actually it makes a difference in gameplay as 2 CCW's means you're all combat. CCW+Pistol gives a ranged option. I understand the modeling aspect, but that's not even remotely what is being discussed (rules discussions not being about modeling, after all, and the OP not asking about an existing model but rules and list building) which is why it is pointless in the discussion at hand. If the question were about a model that has 2 CCW's that's another story altogether.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 18:41:37


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Except it is relevant to your quote that it's "pointless" without any qualifiers. It may be "pointless" from a rules perspective but you didn't say that. Its not "pointless" from a modeling perspective.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in ca
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

 Ghaz wrote:
Except it is relevant to your quote that it's "pointless" without any qualifiers. It may be "pointless" from a rules perspective but you didn't say that. Its not "pointless" from a modeling perspective.


Context my friend. Context. It's a rules discussion, not a modeling discussion.

I'm out.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

No. It's not context. Just because this is YMDC doesn't mean anything.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
 
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