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I gotta say that I love the very concept behind Vanguard Veteran Squads and find them beyond cool. The part I don't find beyond cool is how much they have to spend on wargear. A Veteran with two lightning claws costs virtually the same as a Terminator with a pair of lightning claws. In that case the Terminator is going to win out as an option over the Vanguard Veteran Squads every time. It's just sad that Vanguard Veterans can't compete unless they're under-geared and in that case why bother taking them? To me, Vanguard Veterans are far more gear dependent than Sternguards are, so it just doesn't make sense to me why they should pay a premium points cost just to be usable.

My solution to this was to add one more list to the Wargear Lists: Assault Weapons.

Assault Weapons
A model can replace his bolt pistol and/or Melee weapon with one of the following:
- Lightning claw .......... 5 pts
- Power weapon .......... 5 pts
- Power fist .......... 10 pts
- Grav-pistol .......... 15 pts
- Plasma pistol .......... 15 pts
- Thunder hammer .......... 15 pts

Vanguard Veteran Squads would have access to this list instead of the Melee Weapons list. Note that a Veteran Sergeant would still take options from Melee Weapons instead. This makes lightning claw-equipped Veterans a much more reasonable and appealing 29 points, while Vanguard Veterans with a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer clock in at one point shy of a Terminator with the same gear. Assault Squads could also have two models with access to the Assault Weapons list (or the ability to take a flamer as normal).

Thoughts? Ideas? Concerns?

I think it's more fun to work within constraints, e.g. lightning claws are always 15 points, and it is weird to have a special list just to make this cheaper.

I'm very happy with assault squads having access. I'm ecstatic.

I think both vanguard and sternguard veterans are insane, and should be replaced with veterans that are good because of actual skill instead of wargear.

You should give them chainswords that shoot special issue ammunition. obviously, duh.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I think it's more fun to work within constraints, e.g. lightning claws are always 15 points, and it is weird to have a special list just to make this cheaper.

I'm very happy with assault squads having access. I'm ecstatic.

I think both vanguard and sternguard veterans are insane, and should be replaced with veterans that are good because of actual skill instead of wargear.

You should give them chainswords that shoot special issue ammunition. obviously, duh.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with this post.

That's super interesting, because I've always done the Dark Angel's vets in a drop pod, combat squaded. Half with special weapons and half with melee weapons (LC being one of them)

Then to realize I'm paying a terminator's cost for power armor lightning claws... is really sad.

I'm actually going to unconvert all these vets now.

bryceloop wrote:
That's super interesting, because I've always done the Dark Angel's vets in a drop pod, combat squaded. Half with special weapons and half with melee weapons (LC being one of them)

Then to realize I'm paying a terminator's cost for power armor lightning claws... is really sad.

I'm actually going to unconvert all these vets now.

I find sarcasm doesn't translate well through text. However, if you're serious that's fine, but if not I'll have to ask you to be more constructive about your posts. If you don't like the idea just say so, no need for the sarcasm.

I absolutely wasn't being sarcastic. I was (100% seriously) shocked that I never realized its like 7 points more for the same equivalent model in power armor.

bryceloop wrote:
I absolutely wasn't being sarcastic. I was (100% seriously) shocked that I never realized its like 7 points more for the same equivalent model in power armor.

Yup. 19 points for the Vet, plus 30 points for the pair of lightning claws (or a lightning claw and another Specialist Weapon, otherwise you don't get the +1 Attack), comes to 49 points for a unit with a weaker armour save, no invulnerable save, can't Deep Strike unless you give them jump packs at a further points premium. While I genuinely love the idea of Vanguard Veteran Squads and really want to include them in my army, I just can't justify the points to make them relevant when Terminator Assault Squads (or equally well equipped Deathwing Squads) do more than the Vanguard Veteran Squad and at a lower points cost.

They're a great lore unit and have plenty of customization, but for the points cost they're not really worth it even for lore sake or the sake of a good deal of customization. I'm willing to gimp my army pretty far for the sake of lore, this man always takes 10-man Tactical Squads, but even the Vanguards I have a hard time wanting to include in my army lists, though my brain flowers with the possibilities the unit is capable of (especially to make some really great, fluffy units).

I think they're good if you take combimeltas/flamers and you alpha strike...

but its so situational, I'm never sure about taking them.

why are lightning claws a third of their price?

You could've just said "lightning claws are too expensive, price reduction pl0x" rather than make an entirely new section just for them.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
why are lightning claws a third of their price?

You could've just said "lightning claws are too expensive, price reduction pl0x" rather than make an entirely new section just for them.

The rest of the stuff is cheaper as well, just saying.

If you are lowering points, take this time to drop the grav and plas pistols to 10 points a pop. They are massively overpriced at 15.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
why are lightning claws a third of their price?

You could've just said "lightning claws are too expensive, price reduction pl0x" rather than make an entirely new section just for them.

Their cost is too high on VV vets compared to characters because a Lightning Claw on a WS4 I4 A2 model is not as useful as it is on a WS6 I5 A3 model.

That is the point of the thread, and as a fan of the horrifically overcosted melee Chosen, I can only agree.

bryceloop wrote:I think they're good if you take combimeltas/flamers and you alpha strike...

but its so situational, I'm never sure about taking them.

Indeed and in most cases the Sternguard Veterans are one of the better options for taking Veterans because of their Special Issue Ammunition and the ability to take combi-weapons on-masse for a decent cost.

Scipio Africanus wrote:why are lightning claws a third of their price?

You could've just said "lightning claws are too expensive, price reduction pl0x" rather than make an entirely new section just for them.

Its not that lightning claws are overpriced, it's that non-Independent Character units are paying an IC Premium for the weapons and being nowhere near as effective with them. Also, a Vanguard Veteran Squad equipped with the same two lightning claws as an assault Terminator costs more points for less of an ability to survive and less functionality. That's what this thread is all about, actually giving Vanguard Veterans wargear options which don't cripple them via points. The unit has a lot of potential to be a really cool way to include fluffy units in your army by simply just making them using the options present to the unit, and while we can do this now sadly the points premium makes whatever the result of your imagination is not really worth taking, especially when a Terminator can do the same thing but for 10-20 less points per model.

Hope that explains things.

Nevelon wrote:If you are lowering points, take this time to drop the grav and plas pistols to 10 points a pop. They are massively overpriced at 15.

I actually debated lowering the costs of grav-pistols and plasma pistols, but I have not been able to field test the effects of lowering their points yet. Adding to my to-do list though. I don't think I'd be comfortable dropping the pistols lower than 10 points though, as they're just as lethal as their larger counter parts and can get an extra Attack out of it, but suffer from reduced range. I'll schedule a larger game and do some try test runs before to see how it works at different points values.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
why are lightning claws a third of their price?

You could've just said "lightning claws are too expensive, price reduction pl0x" rather than make an entirely new section just for them.

Their cost is too high on VV vets compared to characters because a Lightning Claw on a WS4 I4 A2 model is not as useful as it is on a WS6 I5 A3 model.

That is the point of the thread, and as a fan of the horrifically overcosted melee Chosen, I can only agree.

Thank you for clarifying that on my behalf.

Personally I think once the armies who still have 5th and 4th Ed codexs get updated, the first armies on the revamp block should be Dark Angels (far too restrictive and bland now that GW is moving towards customization again, also their new unique units definitely need work...also please, no more forcing Belial and Sammael on people GW) and Chaos Space Marines (not as bad as Dark Angels, but they still need a lot of work, they've lost or changed a lot over the past few editions and just need to be built back up again, I think one of their main problems is their pathetic lack of anything helping their Morale tests when they are essentially Nightmare Space Marines and shouldn't break so easily).

TBH, increase Vanguard Veterans to 20 PPM, give them a free Power Weapon of choice. That way they're competing with Honour Guard, swapping the 2+ armour save for Jump Packs and not being tied to taking a Chapter Master. Grey Knight Strike Squads have better shooting and a Force Weapon at 20 PPM, so it's not like it'd be unprecedented.

I can't think of any way that GW can force us to buy them. Maybe if they make psykers summon them. I don't know anyone that uses them. It's kind of sad.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:TBH, increase Vanguard Veterans to 20 PPM, give them a free Power Weapon of choice. That way they're competing with Honour Guard, swapping the 2+ armour save for Jump Packs and not being tied to taking a Chapter Master. Grey Knight Strike Squads have better shooting and a Force Weapon at 20 PPM, so it's not like it'd be unprecedented.

I think leaving them at 19 points works as Honour Guard still have artificer armour and Veterans don't, so if they take power weapons they only end up being one point shy of an honour guard, which to me isn't perfect but works as they are still a bit cheaper since they don't have artificer armour, but at the same time the honour guard also take up FOC so balances a bit in a way I guess.

Johnnytorrance wrote:I can't think of any way that GW can force us to buy them. Maybe if they make psykers summon them. I don't know anyone that uses them. It's kind of sad.

I think lowering their wargear points costs is the first step in making Vanguards more viable, maybe allow them to select one of a few different special rules (one of two or three perhaps, don't want to clog it with too many options as they already have a high level of customization). Sternguards don't need much work, but perhaps let them choose what kind of "benefits package" the squad gets. For example:
Option 1) Can take 4 Special or Heavy weapons instead of just 2 and has Interceptor and Split Fire (or just one, rough ideas at this point).
Option 2) Has Special Issue Ammunition, as well as the Preferred Enemy special rule against one type of Codex (Chaos Space Marines, Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tau Empire, Tyranids). Furthermore, if the enemy army includes a unit from the chosen codex, these Sternguard squads gain Zealot for the entire game. All Sternguard in the same detachment must choose the same codex.

In any case, Sternguards are already somewhat valid, but yes I feel both units need a push when GW eventually re-releases them again, just to make them more viable of a choice compared to the other units in the codex.

Marik, they just released both kits. I doubt that's happening.

I like the idea of making them 25 points with jump packs and a power sword (weapon).

Trading a P.Sizzle (Wizzle) for a P. Fizzle for 10 points is much more reasonable, methinks - 35 points for a jump pack and power fist is pretty reasonable on a S4 model with a 3+ and 3 Attacks OTC.

Edit: Added Generalisations.