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The Realm of Ultramar is said to be one of great peace and prosperity in the Imperium , all thanks to the teachings of Roboute Guilliman.

It is also where the ultramarines get new recruits. Most space marine chapters recruit from harsh death or feudal worlds which are in a constant state of war. This is so as to get the toughest hardiest recruits.

If the ultramarines recruit from the nice and prosperous Ultramar, won't they be getting a bunch of softies?

(Hope I didn't offend any ultra-fanboys)

Maximus Bitch wrote:
(Hope I didn't offend any ultra-fanboys)

You'll find out pretty quick. They'll show up and start insulting everyone who posts in your thread until the mods shut it down. Then they'll PM you and tell you all about they "beat you" by getting your thread locked.

On a more serious note, no. The level of strict discipline they enforce on themselves is so extreme that I don't see them getting soft anytime soon. They also tend to wind up in some pretty big scrapes. Tyranids, Tau, there's no shortage of people that want a piece of the Ultras.

No because the ultramarines recruit in such small numbers they're not going to have a meaningful impact on the population of 5 star systems.

the ultramar region presumably has a population in the billions if not trillions. of these the Ultramarines recruit such a tiny number no ones even going to notice it.
even if we assume they recruit eneugh people to fill out their 10th company each year (which is waaay more then they do recruit) and even if we assume a 99% fatality rate, that's only what 1000 or so people removed from the population.
in a population of billions if not trillions? that's not going to have a meaningful impact. in addition the culture tends to enchourage a sense of "over acheivement" so it's not like they're going to get the only people in ultramar worth a damn. given utlramar has lasted for 10 thousand I doubt their recruitment policies are having a negitive impact.

They're extremely disciplined, led by some of the most powerful and gifted Astartes around (Calgar, Tigurius, Agemman, Sicarius), and have a mini-Imperium happening with the Ultramar system - they aren't faltering with their standards imo.

The other chapters are all super-quirky in one way or another, be it some genetic defect, mutations being barely tolerated by the Inquisition, ridiculous methods of war, etc. Ultramarines be the poster boys. A bunch of goody two-greaves. :teef:

Its probably irrelevant really, because they separate the wheat from the chaff before they start training them. Even if only one in a million happens to be a hard bastard, then they have ample numbers because they have so many worlds. They might be soft when they try out, the ones that make the grade and live through years of training far more difficult than anything modern military orgs could legally get away with, including crazy brain-washing and genetic enhancement, would be unbelievable killers.. like Arnold in Predator times 1000.

Think of it this way, modern soldiers are soft skinned pansies compared to our ancestors hundreds of years ago, but they can still be bad ass.

Modern Navy SEALS grow up in the U.S. and watch too much TV and spend their summers lazing around in the glamorous sunlit uplands of the modern United States, they grow up watching Sesame Street, get told to be nice to others, take long baths, and eat Tacos, It doesn't mean that they cant fight once they have been trained.

Same in the UK, the vast majority of people who attempt to earn their Green Beret fail.

They are weak on week 1, but the guys who last to week 32 and make the grade are immensely tough physically robust killers who laugh in the face of all that PTSD gak that all of those Jessies in the regular Army/National Guard are always complaining about.

Look at Iraq, we were winning when I left.

That the Ultramarines manage to get good marines out of a "soft" population just shows one thing - all you really need (physically) is to be compatible with the geneseed. All the ridiculous combat tests, survival tests, whatever have you ridiculous lethal rituals are a waste of potential recruits. Any boy with the right genetics to accept the geneseed can be molded into a brainwashed superhuman killer.

As said above. While I have no strong feelings one way or the other for the Ultramarines, there's no denying their discipline and effectiveness, even in their own homeworlds.

And the whole thing of 'softies' is kind of a misnomer. As said above, the recruitment really is more based on acceptance of the gene-seed and adherence to purity and the standards of Space Marines. Physicality is no problem.

The standard of living in the USA is higher than in Iraq yet we dismantled their military with contemptuous ease so no, I don't think there is a strong correlation. The trials are tougher than anything but maybe a catachan would experience in everyday life anyway.

A lot of the noble families of Ultramar have a strong warrior culture too, with training a major part of their lives, many going into the PDF or IG, the best being chosen for the Ultramarines. From an early age, a lot of the population will be having military training.

Well, no. UM is the favorite chapter of the GW 40k universe. You can't use logic or educated guess work. Unless GW decide to change their story. Which I don't see happening.

 Silverthorne wrote:
The standard of living in the USA is higher than in Iraq yet we dismantled their military with contemptuous ease.

Even if that is a bit off-topic... What can anyone expect when the world's biggest military spender (more than the next 7-8 spenders combined) goes to war against a third-rate army equipped with old Soviet stuff lacking spare parts? Most of the iraqi forces probably never saw what hit them before surrendering. It was 20K points of Tau vs 500 points of IG.

It makes little sense that the Smurfs could manage an interstellar empire, guard the Imperium's eastern border, and fight across the galaxy with 1,000 men. That Ultramar Auxillia we never hear about must be mighty good.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Most space marine chapters recruit from harsh death or feudal worlds which are in a constant state of war. This is so as to get the toughest hardiest recruits.
...
If the ultramarines recruit from the nice and prosperous Ultramar, won't they be getting a bunch of softies?

On the contrary, this is a subject that has been studied extensively throughout the 20th century. "Who makes the best soldiers?". Initially it was supposed that violent criminals and thugs would be best, but in fact they were usually the first to run away under fire. It was discovered that in fact educated people, ideologically driven, with a strong sense of duty; made much better soldiers, handled stress much better, and were more willing to lay down their lives to defend key positions.

Though recruitment aside, the best soldiers tend to be the ones that are the best trained, best led, and best equipped.

I'm not a huge fan or the Ultramarines, but they have a lot to live up to and feel patriotic about. It is little wonder that they would outshine other chapters.

 Harriticus wrote:
It makes little sense that the Smurfs could manage an interstellar empire, guard the Imperium's eastern border, and fight across the galaxy with 1,000 men. That Ultramar Auxillia we never hear about must be mighty good.

It's easy, if you look close enough the Ultramarines, UItramarines, and U|tramarines are all clearly different chapters. So they could have 3 chapters worth who all like to work together and enjoy the same colour and horseshoe.

Some people train their whole lives to try and join the Ultra's so they're not that soft.

Personally I think they are but my headcanon my rules so I ignore lots of official stuff.

Still hive worlds. Even nice ones are not easy.
Underhives are a excellent source of recruits

 Harriticus wrote:
It makes little sense that the Smurfs could manage an interstellar empire, guard the Imperium's eastern border, and fight across the galaxy with 1,000 men. That Ultramar Auxillia we never hear about must be mighty good.

There are chapters with better strategists. There are those with better tacticians. Those with better fighters. What the Ultramarines bring is logistics and organization. It’s not just the marines in the chapter, but the structure they build around them. Which includes things like the Ultramar PDF.

40k in general has scale issues. And a massive disconnect between the table top and the fluff. Nobody but the propaganda pieces believe that the Ultramarines are single handedly holding fast the entire eastern fringe. But they do serve an important role.

I doubt it.
Blood sport to determine the best candidate works too.

The Ultramarines produce super-soldiers rather then super-warriors. They are capable of slotting straight into an ongoing campaign, coordinate better between squads, the chapter as a whole and the wider world. The co-ordination and mutual support they provide is what makes them as good as they are. The battle for Eagle Gate (6th edition rulebook) shows this.

 Smacks wrote:
Initially it was supposed that violent criminals and thugs would be best, but in fact they were usually the first to run away under fire. It was discovered that in fact educated people, ideologically driven, with a strong sense of duty; made much better soldiers, handled stress much better, and were more willing to lay down their lives to defend key positions.

Though recruitment aside, the best soldiers tend to be the ones that are the best trained, best led, and best equipped.

I'm not a huge fan or the Ultramarines, but they have a lot to live up to and feel patriotic about. It is little wonder that they would outshine other chapters.

but this quote, read this.

Ultramar, the place that would resemble Ancient Rome in both Ethics and Traditions is soft?

It makes little sense that the Smurfs could manage an interstellar empire, guard the Imperium's eastern border, and fight across the galaxy with 1,000 men. That Ultramar Auxillia we never hear about must be mighty good.

Ultramarines also have the most successor chapters, which would gladly help the parent chapter in times of need and many of which are also in said area.

A lot of the noble families of Ultramar have a strong warrior culture too, with training a major part of their lives, many going into the PDF or IG, the best being chosen for the Ultramarines. From an early age, a lot of the population will be having military training.

As said, considering it's like Ancient Rome when it comes to training, they really do have a serious warrior culture as well as one of intellect.

But unlike the Romans, the space marines are no longer organised into legions, something which gave the Romans great military strength.

the ultramarines have the benefit of a larger selection pool of 11 worlds.

but as always, those who lead comfortable lives don't have the heart to go to war.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
But unlike the Romans, the space marines are no longer organised into legions, something which gave the Romans great military strength.

the ultramarines have the benefit of a larger selection pool of 11 worlds.

but as always, those who lead comfortable lives don't have the heart to go to war.

It doesn't matter. Hypno-indoctrination, physiological changes brought on by geneseed, and a brutal training regimen turns them into superb warriors.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
But unlike the Romans, the space marines are no longer organised into legions, something which gave the Romans great military strength.

the ultramarines have the benefit of a larger selection pool of 11 worlds.

but as always, those who lead comfortable lives don't have the heart to go to war.

Except for the fact that one of Ultramar's main tenants is the protection of all men, one of the main things that is forcefully purged is less altruistic traits such as the selfishness of not desiring to go to war to fight for the Imperium. They value combat, they value war, they view militaristic war life as a way of protecting the Imperium. If you do not pull your weight for Ultramar, you are disdained and considered useless and will not last long.

To Ultramar, the Auxallia PDF of their worlds are their legion, conscription is mandatory and many of which are chosen from to become new Ultramarines.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
But unlike the Romans, the space marines are no longer organised into legions, something which gave the Romans great military strength.

the ultramarines have the benefit of a larger selection pool of 11 worlds.

but as always, those who lead comfortable lives don't have the heart to go to war.

Except for the fact that one of Ultramar's main tenants is the protection of all men, one of the main things that is forcefully purged is less altruistic traits such as the selfishness of not desiring to go to war to fight for the Imperium. They value combat, they value war, they view militaristic war life as a way of protecting the Imperium. If you do not pull your weight for Ultramar, you are disdained and considered useless and will not last long.

To Ultramar, the Auxallia PDF of their worlds are their legion, conscription is mandatory and many of which are chosen from to become new Ultramarines.

Do they though? I don't remember reading anything about Ultramarine candidates coming from the Auxilia. AFAIK the Ultramarines follow the same basic geneseed rule as every other chapter and recruit teenagers.

 Orblivion wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
But unlike the Romans, the space marines are no longer organised into legions, something which gave the Romans great military strength.

the ultramarines have the benefit of a larger selection pool of 11 worlds.

but as always, those who lead comfortable lives don't have the heart to go to war.

Except for the fact that one of Ultramar's main tenants is the protection of all men, one of the main things that is forcefully purged is less altruistic traits such as the selfishness of not desiring to go to war to fight for the Imperium. They value combat, they value war, they view militaristic war life as a way of protecting the Imperium. If you do not pull your weight for Ultramar, you are disdained and considered useless and will not last long.

To Ultramar, the Auxallia PDF of their worlds are their legion, conscription is mandatory and many of which are chosen from to become new Ultramarines.

Do they though? I don't remember reading anything about Ultramarine candidates coming from the Auxilia. AFAIK the Ultramarines follow the same basic geneseed rule as every other chapter and recruit teenagers.

Hmmm, I might be wrong but considering the age that noble sons are sent to serve it might coincide with the age of conscription for Space Marines. However I am less certain on that one.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If you do not pull your weight for Ultramar, you are disdained and considered useless and will not last long.

Aye, a shining beacon of happiness and joy. Everyone is happy to live in Ultramar - or else. I imagine UM scouts train by pulling off home raids in the middle of the night, arresting seditionists and malcontents. :-)

Spetulhu wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If you do not pull your weight for Ultramar, you are disdained and considered useless and will not last long.

Aye, a shining beacon of happiness and joy. Everyone is happy to live in Ultramar - or else. I imagine UM scouts train by pulling off home raids in the middle of the night, arresting seditionists and malcontents. :-)

This is still the Grim Dark future of 40K, by comparison to many other places it's a Utopia afterall.

In the real world, the wealth and luxury of a power does not mean that its military is filled with weak softies.

Money and resources allow them to equip and train units to the nth degree and make them far more effective then some guy in the backwoods of nowhere living off whatever they can scrape up. US special forces repeatedly owned far larger Taliban groups. I imagine Ultramar is the same way. People compete constantly and the UMs skim the best of the best off the top for their recruits.

Sure, their are people who can't hack it and drop out, but that doesn't drag down the UM at all since the drop outs never even get to the scout level.

They have plot armour against that. Just kidding.