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Master of the Skies: Baron Sathonyx and any unit of Hellions he joins may re-roll failed dangerous terrain tests. Also, when using their Hit & Run rule, they can re-roll both the initiative test and the dice to determine how far they move.

Does the Baron have to be with a unit of Hellions to gain this special rule?

Yes.

He gets it if he's on his own as well.

Oh, yes... That is also true

Okay cool so he has it on his own. Now, lets say he then joins a non-hellion unit. How do the rules interact with that unit? He does become a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Now, lets say he then joins a non-hellion unit. How do the rules interact with that unit? .

Any Hellions in the unit would gain the benefit of his rule. Any non-Hellions would not, since it applies specifically to Hellions.

What about the re-roll for Hit & Run when using the Barons Initiative?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
What about the re-roll for Hit & Run when using the Barons Initiative?

...and any unit of Hellions he joins may re-roll failed dangerous terrain tests. Also, when using their Hit & Run rule, ...

Whose Hit & Run rule?

The unit of Hellions that the Baron joined.



It only applies to Hellions.

So the Baron can not reroll if he is by himself?

Really sorry, this is just throwing me off.

The rule specifically applies to the Baron as well. I thought that was already covered at the start of the thread.

 insaniak wrote:
The rule specifically applies to the Baron as well. I thought that was already covered at the start of the thread.

Alright i guess what I am asking is why does he lose his reroll for Hit & Run when he joins a non-Hellion unit?

Situation A: The Baron is by himself. He can reroll his Hit & Run rolls. (The rule specifically allows it.)
Situation B: The Baron joins a unit of Hellions. As an individual unit, he ceases to exist, but the Master of the Skies still specifies that it applies to any unit of Hellions he joins. The unit can still reroll Hit & Run rolls.
Situation C: The Baron joins any other unit. He ceases to be a single unit. When the unit goes to Hit & Run, there is no individual unit of Baron Sathonyx, and he is not joined to a unit of Hellions, so the Master of the Skies rule cannot be applied.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The rule specifically applies to the Baron as well. I thought that was already covered at the start of the thread.

Alright i guess what I am asking is why does he lose his reroll for Hit & Run when he joins a non-Hellion unit?

Does he himself have the hit and run rule? (I'm guessing he does, but don't have the codex on me at the moment).

If so, as hit and run only requires a single model to have it for the unit to benefit from it, I would think that the re-roll would actually apply.

 insaniak wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The rule specifically applies to the Baron as well. I thought that was already covered at the start of the thread.

Alright i guess what I am asking is why does he lose his reroll for Hit & Run when he joins a non-Hellion unit?

Does he himself have the hit and run rule? (I'm guessing he does, but don't have the codex on me at the moment).

If so, as hit and run only requires a single model to have it for the unit to benefit from it, I would think that the re-roll would actually apply.

Hmm. Interesting. In that case, Extremefreak makes a good point: why would they specify Hellions?

Did 5th edition hit & run require the whole unit to have it? I don't remember off the top of my head.

Oi. 5th ed book is in the attic. I'll dig it out tomorrow if no one with a more handy copy chimes in.

 insaniak wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The rule specifically applies to the Baron as well. I thought that was already covered at the start of the thread.

Alright i guess what I am asking is why does he lose his reroll for Hit & Run when he joins a non-Hellion unit?

Does he himself have the hit and run rule? (I'm guessing he does, but don't have the codex on me at the moment).

If so, as hit and run only requires a single model to have it for the unit to benefit from it, I would think that the re-roll would actually apply.

The Baron does indeed have Hit & Run. I don't have a 5th edition BRB anymore though. Cat ate it.

Hit & Run was one of the rules lost if t he IC or unit did not have it.

So if the Baron joined a unit with H&R, he lost it in 5th while joined.

Two Editions behind, shouldn't be surprised there are some odd Rules.
Here is to them getting an update soon...? please.....

So RAW for 7th, what do you guys think? Does the Baron get to take advantage of his Hit & Run test and distance rerolls if joined to a non-Hellion unit?

RAW for 7th, any unit he joins would benefit from the Hit & Run bit.

 insaniak wrote:
RAW for 7th, any unit he joins would benefit from the Hit & Run bit.

I disagree. Both parts of Master of the Skies apply to "Sathonyx and any unit of hellions he joins". If Baron joins a non-Hellion unit, Beasts for example, and the unit goes to H&R, it's the Beast unit that takes the Initiative check, which is clearly neither "Sathonyx" nor "any unit of Hellions he joins".

The Dangerous Terrain re-roll still works for Baron when joined to a non-Hellion unit though, since dangerous terrain checks are done for specific models.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
RAW for 7th, any unit he joins would benefit from the Hit & Run bit.

I disagree. Both parts of Master of the Skies apply to "Sathonyx and any unit of hellions he joins". If Baron joins a non-Hellion unit, Beasts for example, and the unit goes to H&R, it's the Beast unit that takes the Initiative check, which is clearly neither "Sathonyx" nor "any unit of Hellions he joins".

The Dangerous Terrain re-roll still works for Baron when joined to a non-Hellion unit though, since dangerous terrain checks are done for specific models.

I would argue that because you are testing on the Baron's initiative, the Baron is indeed making the check.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
RAW for 7th, any unit he joins would benefit from the Hit & Run bit.

I disagree. Both parts of Master of the Skies apply to "Sathonyx and any unit of hellions he joins". If Baron joins a non-Hellion unit, Beasts for example, and the unit goes to H&R, it's the Beast unit that takes the Initiative check, which is clearly neither "Sathonyx" nor "any unit of Hellions he joins".

The Dangerous Terrain re-roll still works for Baron when joined to a non-Hellion unit though, since dangerous terrain checks are done for specific models.

I would argue that because you are testing on the Baron's initiative, the Baron is indeed making the check.

It reads like the the beast pack would check on the Baron's Init, but not get to take advantage of the hellion specific part. As the Init to check on is a BRB USR interaction, while the Hellion bonus are a more specific rule. Baron would still get to re-roll his DT test, the beast would not for the same reasons.

Right, but the Baron himself also has the rule, and not only when joined to Hellions. I dont have the BRB in front of me, but when i get home I am going to look at the Hit & Run rule to see how exactly the check is made.

barnowl wrote:
. Baron would still get to re-roll his DT test, the beast would not for the same reasons.

The difference being that DT tests are taken by each individual model, while Hit & Run is tested by the unit... and only requires one model to have the Hit & Run rule in order to benefit from it.

So the Beasts in the above example aren't re-rolling Hit & Run... the Baron is, and the Beasts are just coming along for the ride.



It's a (probably unintentional) side-effect of the change to the Hit & Run rule over different editions.

 insaniak wrote:

barnowl wrote:
. Baron would still get to re-roll his DT test, the beast would not for the same reasons.

The difference being that DT tests are taken by each individual model, while Hit & Run is tested by the unit... and only requires one model to have the Hit & Run rule in order to benefit from it.

So the Beasts in the above example aren't re-rolling Hit & Run... the Baron is, and the Beasts are just coming along for the ride.



It's a (probably unintentional) side-effect of the change to the Hit & Run rule over different editions.

100% agree with that last bit. I wanted to know as I will be attending the Bay Area Open this year and wanted to be extra clear on how this rule works. Probably a good Idea to check with the TO in regards to this one.

extremefreak17 wrote:I would argue that because you are testing on the Baron's initiative, the Baron is indeed making the check.

Hit and Run says:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule that is locked in combat can choose to leave close combat at the end of any assault phase. If the unit wishes to do so, it must take an initiative test.

So again it is clearly the UNIT which is opting to H&R and the UNIT is taking the initiative test, not Baron. Even if Baron has the highest initiative out of models in the unit (like he would in a seer council), it's still the unit that is taking the test as per the H&R rule.

insaniak wrote:The difference being that DT tests are taken by each individual model, while Hit & Run is tested by the unit... and only requires one model to have the Hit & Run rule in order to benefit from it.

So the Beasts in the above example aren't re-rolling Hit & Run... the Baron is, and the Beasts are just coming along for the ride.

Actually technically he cant use it unless he is with the Helions, the key words of and, joins and they imply more than one model.

I know people play it as such but no he doesn't get it on his own.

It doesn't explicitly say he does have it on his own.

English language is a fun thing isnt it...

Shingen wrote:
Actually technically he cant use it unless he is with the Helions, the key words of and, joins and they imply more than one model.

I know people play it as such but no he doesn't get it on his own.

It doesn't explicitly say he does have it on his own.

English language is a fun thing isnt it...

Not if you read it as two seperate subjects. The grammar is not clear in this case