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 extremefreak17 wrote:
Right, but the Baron himself also has the rule, and not only when joined to Hellions. I dont have the BRB in front of me, but when i get home I am going to look at the Hit & Run rule to see how exactly the check is made.

The Baron Sathonyx unit and the Hellion unit can reroll their test. However, if the Baron joins a non Hellion unit (say Eldar Jetbikes) then when that unit (Eldar Jetbike) makes its H&R test, it is neither the Baron nor a Hellion unit. So it does not benefit from the rule.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

extremefreak17 wrote:I would argue that because you are testing on the Baron's initiative, the Baron is indeed making the check.

Hit and Run says:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule that is locked in combat can choose to leave close combat at the end of any assault phase. If the unit wishes to do so, it must take an initiative test.

So again it is clearly the UNIT which is opting to H&R and the UNIT is taking the initiative test, not Baron. Even if Baron has the highest initiative out of models in the unit (like he would in a seer council), it's still the unit that is taking the test as per the H&R rule.

insaniak wrote:The difference being that DT tests are taken by each individual model, while Hit & Run is tested by the unit... and only requires one model to have the Hit & Run rule in order to benefit from it.

So the Beasts in the above example aren't re-rolling Hit & Run... the Baron is, and the Beasts are just coming along for the ride.

That's actually the opposite of what's happening. The unit that is deciding to H&R is the Beasts, and the unit that is taking the initiative check is the Beasts, and baron (along with any other attached ICs) is along for the ride. Just because Baron is the only model in the unit that has H&R does not change that fact.

Might be useful to put up a poll to gather some numbers on how the community feels about this one.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Now how about this. When the Baron joins the Beastpack, he is part of the unit "for all rules purposes." So my question is does: Unit makes Init check = Baron makes Init check? I think it has to work that way.

I think you want it to work that way

Personally I don't see how you can equate "Beast unit takes an initiative check" to "model in Beast unit takes an initiative check". To me those are 2 distinct and non-interchangeable things.

And while it doesn't have anything to do with RAW, the intent of this rule is pretty clear, it's only supposed to work for baron and his hellions.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Now how about this. When the Baron joins the Beastpack, he is part of the unit "for all rules purposes." So my question is does: Unit makes Init check = Baron makes Init check? I think it has to work that way.

I think you want it to work that way

Personally I don't see how you can equate "Beast unit takes an initiative check" to "model in Beast unit takes an initiative check". To me those are 2 distinct and non-interchangeable things.

And while it doesn't have anything to do with RAW, the intent of this rule is pretty clear, it's only supposed to work for baron and his hellions.

This is covered under Characteristic Tests in the BRB.

Fragile wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Now how about this. When the Baron joins the Beastpack, he is part of the unit "for all rules purposes." So my question is does: Unit makes Init check = Baron makes Init check? I think it has to work that way.

I think you want it to work that way

Personally I don't see how you can equate "Beast unit takes an initiative check" to "model in Beast unit takes an initiative check". To me those are 2 distinct and non-interchangeable things.

And while it doesn't have anything to do with RAW, the intent of this rule is pretty clear, it's only supposed to work for baron and his hellions.

This is covered under Characteristic Tests in the BRB.

While the Baron's initiative number IS used, I think the bone of contention comes in when you check to see WHO is making the check. The Beast unit, in this case. Do Beasts have permission to reroll the Init test?

I can really see both sides of this issue, RAW. I think the "and units of Hellions he joins" makes the RAI pretty clear though. Otherwise, that language becomes meaningless.

 Jimsolo wrote:
...Otherwise, that language becomes meaningless.

It still applies to the other half of the rule.


Even if it didn't, though, that wouldn't be proof that this interpretation is wrong under the current rules when the codex was written 2 editions back for a rule that functioned differently. The original intention of the rule is largely irrelevant by this point, precisely because of that change in the core rules.

Do Beasts have permission to reroll the Init test?

The Beasts don't. The Baron, who is a part of the unit, does.

By definition the Baron effectively gives any unit he juste the special rule. The codex doesn't actually stipulate he has it though unless he is with Helions.

Its a bit daft.

Shingen wrote:
By definition the Baron effectively gives any unit he juste the special rule. The codex doesn't actually stipulate he has it though unless he is with Helions.

Its a bit daft.

Shingen and any Nems with him can use the kettle.

Pretty sure contextually that is not exclusive.

 insaniak wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
...Otherwise, that language becomes meaningless.

It still applies to the other half of the rule.


Even if it didn't, though, that wouldn't be proof that this interpretation is wrong under the current rules when the codex was written 2 editions back for a rule that functioned differently. The original intention of the rule is largely irrelevant by this point, precisely because of that change in the core rules.

Do Beasts have permission to reroll the Init test?

The Beasts don't. The Baron, who is a part of the unit, does.

Eh, I'll capitulate on this one. ("No, really Jim! Your Beastpacks can TOTALLY be more ripped than they already are!") Twist my arm why don't you...

You could argue based on the word ANY that he can jump from unit to unit giving everyone it and then leaving.

People read rules the way they want to and in a way that benefits them, it's human nature.

As a DE player though I can tell you now I won't be using that rule myself unless he's with Helions.

Shingen wrote:
You could argue based on the word ANY that he can jump from unit to unit giving everyone it and then leaving.

People read rules the way they want to and in a way that benefits them, it's human nature.

As a DE player though I can tell you now I won't be using that rule myself unless he's with Helions.

Not exactly, the unit would lose it as soon as he left.

Technically, it does say any unit of Hellions he joins, not any unit of Hellions he is joined to.

I mean, if we're wanting to all be reasonable adults and play the way we all know it's supposed to work, then it just applies to a unit he's in.

But if we want to get silly about the technical RAW, then he could join a Hellion unit, confer the re-roll on them, and leave later, still leaving them with a re-roll. (And blessing a half-dozen other Hellions units with this ability over the course of a game.)

I don't think I'd try it in real life, though. There's enough people who want to deck me as it is.

Have to move at the slowest speed of a model in the unit, so you will not get the barons reroll.

blaktoof wrote:
Have to move at the slowest speed of a model in the unit, so you will not get the barons reroll.

You got a page number for that? Also, that would not apply to the re-roll for the Initiative check anyway.

blaktoof wrote:
Have to move at the slowest speed of a model in the unit, so you will not get the barons reroll.

This hasn't been true since 5th edition.