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I'm the TO for my shop, and we've had some issues with Master of Ambush. Wanted to A) make sure we're playing it right, and B) if we are, get your opinion on how bad it really is.

Basically, we have a Black Templar player infiltrating or outflanking a pair of Land Raiders filled with Assault Terminators, and it's pretty beastly.

So MoA specifies non-vehicle units, but the Land Raiders are dedicated transports, so if the Termies get infiltrate it should confer to their transports as well, yes?

Has anyone else had issues with this? It seems pretty ridiculous at four total units and a 1/3 rate of reliability. Granted, he's gotten very lucky rolling it, but that's a major swing to his army's effectiveness.

Im pretty sure scout confers to the transport but infiltrate dont.... Fetching ze rulebook!

Right there in the Infiltrate Rules.

JinxDragon wrote:
Right there in the Infiltrate Rules.

^ ninjad.

I just happened to have the e-book closer is all.

It's legal and meh.... They can't charge first turn so not a huge worry.

Gravmyr wrote:
It's legal and meh.... They can't charge first turn so not a huge worry.

Can if going second player turn, so while not normally an issue, having Assualt Termies sitting in mobile bunker on your doorstep waiting assault anything inside 24" is kind of nasty.

barnowl wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
It's legal and meh.... They can't charge first turn so not a huge worry.

Can if going second player turn, so while not normally an issue, having Assualt Termies sitting in mobile bunker on your doorstep waiting assault anything inside 24" is kind of nasty.

No, they can't.
Read the Infiltrate SR.

A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn.

2nd player turn would be their first turn.

Surround the land raider, it can't move without Tank Shock, if it Tank Shocks, passengers can't disembark.

 plus1jeremy wrote:
So MoA specifies non-vehicle units, but the Land Raiders are dedicated transports, so if the Termies get infiltrate it should confer to their transports as well, yes?

Just double checking, but these Land Raider are only Dedicated transports? Or are they a Heavy support Choice from the CAD?

If they do not count towards Force Org, they may Infiltrate.

If they are a Heavy Support choice, they are not "non-vehicle units", no matter who is inside.

rigeld2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
It's legal and meh.... They can't charge first turn so not a huge worry.

Can if going second player turn, so while not normally an issue, having Assualt Termies sitting in mobile bunker on your doorstep waiting assault anything inside 24" is kind of nasty.

No, they can't.
Read the Infiltrate SR.

A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn.

2nd player turn would be their first turn.

Dang you are correct, I totally missed that wording change going from 6e to 7e. That hurts stealer tactics alot also. Kind of kills infiltrate usefulness alot for assault units.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Just double checking, but these Land Raider are only Dedicated transports? Or are they a Heavy support Choice from the CAD?

They might not even be allowed to infiltrate in the first place?

 BlackTalos wrote:
They might not even be allowed to infiltrate in the first place?

A unit of Assault Terminators may take a Land Raider of any type as a Dedicated Transport.

Yep, they're dedicated.

Just double checked the marine codex, but only Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod and LS Storm are dedicated transports.

Land Raiders are Heavy Support, that certain squads select as Dedicated Transports. They are still a Heavy Support choice in your Force org and a Unit of their own.
Master of Ambush is clear that you may select "three non-vehicle units". Land raiders taken with Assault terminators are 2 units: The terminator Elite unit, and their DT, the Land Raider Heavy Support Unit.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Just double checked the marine codex, but only Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod and LS Storm are dedicated transports.

Land Raiders are Heavy Support, that certain squads select as Dedicated Transports. They are still a Heavy Support choice in your Force org and a Unit of their own.
Master of Ambush is clear that you may select "three non-vehicle units". Land raiders taken with Assault terminators are 2 units: The terminator Elite unit, and their DT, the Land Raider Heavy Support Unit.

Not true.

As per the Dedicated Transport rule they "count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes".

So a Land Raider bought for an Elite unit, is counted as an Elite.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Just double checked the marine codex, but only Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod and LS Storm are dedicated transports.

Land Raiders are Heavy Support, that certain squads select as Dedicated Transports. They are still a Heavy Support choice in your Force org and a Unit of their own.
Master of Ambush is clear that you may select "three non-vehicle units". Land raiders taken with Assault terminators are 2 units: The terminator Elite unit, and their DT, the Land Raider Heavy Support Unit.

Not true.

As per the Dedicated Transport rule they "count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes".

So a Land Raider bought for an Elite unit, is counted as an Elite.

That same rule states:
"Other Vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own"

They are still Dedicated Transports, but use their own Force Org slot.

Or are you asserting that a Marine detachment with 3 Land raiders still has 3 empty Heavy Support slots?

 BlackTalos wrote:
That same rule states:
"Other Vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own"

Yes, that's talking about non-dedicated Transports. They take up a slot as usual.

They are still Dedicated Transports, but use their own Force Org slot.

No, it's talking about other transports, not dedicated ones. Dedicated Transports do not take up a slot.

Or are you asserting that a Marine detachment with 3 Land raiders still has 3 empty Heavy Support slots?

If those 3 Land Raiders were purchased as dedicated transports, then yes it would have 3 slots left. Been that way for the last 5 editions.

Is page 168 a misprint then?
"The unit may take a (...) LR Crusader as a Dedicated Transport"

opposed to most pages (eg p172):
"The unit may select a Land Raider of any type as a Dedicated Transport"

RaW to me is:
Tac squad takes a Dedicated Transport that is a Rhino (Force Org: Dedicated Transport)
Terminator squad takes a Dedicated Transport that is a Land Raider (Force Org: Heavy support)
Crusader squad takes a Dedicated Transport that is a LR Crusader (Force Org: Dedicated Transport)

I also then come across how Scout is worded:

If a Unit with this special rule is deployed inside a DT, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport.

Compared to:

If a Unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a DT, they may Infiltrate along with their Transport

Are we assuming Infiltrate "confers" to the transport? it's not really in the wording? must the DT have Infiltrate too?

If it's a Dedicated Transport, it takes up no slot at all.

The rules state this. It doesn't matter if it can also be taken as a non-dedicated (in that case it takes up the slot it's listed as).

barnowl wrote:
Dang you are correct, I totally missed that wording change going from 6e to 7e. That hurts stealer tactics alot also. Kind of kills infiltrate usefulness alot for assault units.

It works the same now as it did in 6th.

the wording change has no effect at all on how the rules work in 7th compared to 6th.

 grendel083 wrote:
If it's a Dedicated Transport, it takes up no slot at all.

The rules state this. It doesn't matter if it can also be taken as a non-dedicated (in that case it takes up the slot it's listed as).

So a Land Raider with Assault Terminators is not a CAD slot, but one with Tactical marines is?

Also what about the second part and "Infiltrate" not actually being conferred?

 BlackTalos wrote:
So a Land Raider with Assault Terminators is not a CAD slot,

Assault Terminators are an Elite slot, the unit will take up a slot, their Transport won't (since it's dedicated) but will count as an Elite for other rules purposes.

Why a CAD slot specifically? It's the same with any detachment that uses slots.

but one with Tactical marines is?

If tacical marrines could purchase a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (they can't) then it would also not take up a slot (while the unit would). This Land Raider would count as Troops for other rules purposes.

Also what about the second part and "Infiltrate" not actually being conferred?

"..they may infiltrate along with their Transport" That part?

Dedicated Transports:
These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart, but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for.
That Faction part is interesting, guess it is for Forgeworld or Supplements that might have you looking in multiple books for information.

JinxDragon wrote:
Dedicated Transports:
These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart, but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for.
That Faction part is interesting, guess it is for Forgeworld or Supplements that might have you looking in multiple books for information.

Some Special rules are faction dependent. So the DT being the Same Faction as the unit that buys it makes sense.

The "(if any)" leaves rules open for Mercenary units(We just might see Kroot Mercenaries or Rogue Traders as an available addition to all types of detachments)

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So a Land Raider with Assault Terminators is not a CAD slot,

Assault Terminators are an Elite slot, the unit will take up a slot, their Transport won't (since it's dedicated) but will count as an Elite for other rules purposes.

Why a CAD slot specifically? It's the same with any detachment that uses slots.

but one with Tactical marines is?

If tacical marrines could purchase a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (they can't) then it would also not take up a slot (while the unit would). This Land Raider would count as Troops for other rules purposes.

I would have said FOC slot, but i think it no longer applies.
And i meant a Tactical squad (taking Troop FOC slot) within a land raider (taking HS slot) is what "Other Vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own" refers to then?

 grendel083 wrote:

Also what about the second part and "Infiltrate" not actually being conferred?

"..they may infiltrate along with their Transport" That part?

But it's not "...it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport".
I would not immediately think the DT has the rule, but that they can "go along with it" because it has the rule already (i am guessing no vehicle ever have the <Infiltrate> USR?)



Side question, or confirmation: Unit A can get out of DT, DT can then move 12", Unit B can then embark on DT. Is this correct?

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would have said FOC slot, but i think it no longer applies.

FOC is still a valid term.
The new Detachment style consists of 3 things: an FOC, Restrictions and Command Benefits.

And i meant a Tactical squad (taking Troop FOC slot) within a land raider (taking HS slot) is what "Other Vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own" refers to then?

Yes, it's not a dedicated transport it's an "other vehicle", so takes up it's slot as normal.

 grendel083 wrote:

Also what about the second part and "Infiltrate" not actually being conferred?

"..they may infiltrate along with their Transport" That part?

But it's not "...it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport".
I would not immediately think the DT has the rule, but that they can "go along with it" because it has the rule already (i am guessing no vehicle ever have the <Infiltrate> USR?)

Yep, it doesn't get the rule, but benefits from it by transporting the squad.
I can't think of any Transport with Infiltrate to be honest.

Side question, or confirmation: Unit A can get out of DT, DT can then move 12", Unit B can then embark on DT. Is this correct?

I see no problem with that.

Kommissar Kel,
I found it curious as the normal way to get a Dedicated Transport is an option in the Army List, with everything on that list is already one Faction to begin with, but there are many good reasons as to why such a clause might be needed in the future.
All which have me hopeful that we will see... things in the future, stupid things for sure as it is Game Workshop but hopefully good things as well.

Orks riding Looted Waveserpents! That's what it's for!
Yes? No? Maybe?