Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was reading up on the new shooting rules and it does not mention that I have to declare, from the beginning of my units shooting, which weapon I have to fire. So, can I do the following?

Battle sister squad with heavy flamer and melta gun. Sister superior has a combi flamer.

Fire heavy flamer first. If there are enough remaining models, fire the flamer profile of the combi weapon. If there are not many models left, choose to fire the boltgun profile instead, saving the flamer. Possible? Does it work this way?

Assuming that differently named flamers fire at different times. (There's still this raging debate. Of course I would like to fire all templates together, but it's not universally accepted.)

Sounds ok to me. As I read it, you don't have to declare in advance which 'weapon' the combi is firing as until you reach that 'select a weapon' stage.

And yeah, sorry, Heavy Flamer and Flamer (which the combi counts as due to combi-weapon rules would fire separately.

This restriction is great for trolling models with Jink too. Say you have a chapter master who has yet to fire his orbital bombardment. Declare he is shooting at that skimmer and go to pick up the large blast template, but then ask if your opponent wants to jink. He says yes? Put the large blast down and declare the chapter master is throwing a krak grenade. Enjoy the lulz

That's some WAAC gak right there.

Best to save that for the GTs

 Mulletdude wrote:
This restriction is great for trolling models with Jink too. Say you have a chapter master who has yet to fire his orbital bombardment. Declare he is shooting at that skimmer and go to pick up the large blast template, but then ask if your opponent wants to jink. He says yes? Put the large blast down and declare the chapter master is throwing a krak grenade. Enjoy the lulz

Then the opponent says "No, on second thought I wont if you are just throwing a Krak grenade..."

Doesn't the timing create an issue?

No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

Target is declared before the weapon is.

JinxDragon wrote:
Doesn't the timing create an issue?

Actually yes it does, since you declare Jink before any to hit rolls are made, so you can fire whatever weapons you want at a target depending on if it jinks or not.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

Jink is done before rolls to-hit, not on choose a target

From the rules

"The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

So you have until they start shooting which is right after the select which weapon to use

The timing begins in step 2, continues up until he is about to roll to-hit

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

Jink is done before rolls to-hit, not on choose a target

From the rules

"The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

So you have until they start shooting which is right after the select which weapon to use

The timing begins in step 2, continues up until he is about to roll to-hit

It's cool - I don't mind that you didn't read the entire rule.

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

When is a unit selected as a target for a shooting attack? Oh - step 2. Before a weapon is selected.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

Jink is done before rolls to-hit, not on choose a target

From the rules

"The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

So you have until they start shooting which is right after the select which weapon to use

The timing begins in step 2, continues up until he is about to roll to-hit

It's cool - I don't mind that you didn't read the entire rule.

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

When is a unit selected as a target for a shooting attack? Oh - step 2. Before a weapon is selected.

Removed due to peoples sensitivity

Here is the entire rule.

Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

Notice the word may, and then notice how it gives you a timing when you have to make a decision by.

You can make it the moment you are targeted or up until rolls to hit have been made. The rule states a time, you can then follow apply the rule at any time within that time, so, as I said.

The beginning of Step 2, up until rolls to-hit have been made.

What? Don't you roll all the wound at once still? Fire the first flamer, then the second heavy flamer. Then roll to wound, or is this now totally wrong?

 Lobomalo wrote:
<personal attack removed>
Here is the entire rule.

Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

Notice the word may, and then notice how it gives you a timing when you have to make a decision by.

May means it's optional - you aren't forced to Jink.
The timing is actually far earlier in the sentence - "When a unit ... with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack..."
If you make it during step 3 (choosing a weapon) did you make the declaration when the unit was selected as a target? Or did you make it after the unit was selected as a target? The rule requires you do it when.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:
What? Don't you roll all the wound at once still? Fire the first flamer, then the second heavy flamer. Then roll to wound, or is this now totally wrong?

No, 7th edition completely changed the shooting rules.

 milkboy wrote:
I was reading up on the new shooting rules and it does not mention that I have to declare, from the beginning of my units shooting, which weapon I have to fire. So, can I do the following?

Battle sister squad with heavy flamer and melta gun. Sister superior has a combi flamer.

Fire heavy flamer first. If there are enough remaining models, fire the flamer profile of the combi weapon. If there are not many models left, choose to fire the boltgun profile instead, saving the flamer. Possible? Does it work this way?

Assuming that differently named flamers fire at different times. (There's still this raging debate. Of course I would like to fire all templates together, but it's not universally accepted.)

Since no one pointed it out earlier, I will.

The Heavy Flamer and the Flamer are 2 different weapons, therefore you would have to shoot them separately no matter what.

Now, if you had fired bolters first, you would have to make the decision whether or not to use the combi or the bolter profile when you a selecting which models with bolters will fire

The rule gives you up until the roll to-hit. You then have until that type to decide to Jink.

What you are going on is merely "your" interpretation of the rule as it stands in the text.

 Lobomalo wrote:
The rule gives you up until the roll to-hit. You then have until that type to decide to Jink.

No, it doesn't say that. It says the decision must be made before rolling to hit.
It also says to declare *when* the unit is targeted. So "my" interpretation of the rules follows all the rules.
Yours explicitly breaks one. Why is yours correct again?

Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

At best, what will happen in yet another pointless argument, one side will weigh in and read the rule, understanding only the first part, the other side will come in, read the entire rule, understand the timing issue and, 9 pages later, the thread is closed when the moderator says GW will need a FAQ.

To the OP.

The timing in the second line is the one you would follow when attempting to Jink.

Also, you would need to declare separately for the combi-weapon

"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

Except that the you have up until to-hit rolls are made which is after selecting a weapon.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

Except that the you have up until to-hit rolls are made which is after selecting a weapon.

How is that correct when the rule also says that you must declare when you are targeted?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

Except that the you have up until to-hit rolls are made which is after selecting a weapon.

How is that correct when the rule also says that you must declare when you are targeted?

The rule states when you have to & when you need to make this decision by.

Edit:

After reading through other topics you have posted in, it is best that I step away from the conversation before the thread gets closed and nothing is solved. You have made it clear in this conversation and in others that you simply like to bait people into unnecessary arguments and I am not going to engage you in this.

Now if you can somehow find a way to dispute the timing mechanic of the Jink window closing, and have either rule backing to go along with this or a convincing reason as to why this does not work I may re-engage in the discussion.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

The rule does not require you declare when targeted. The rule gives you permission to use Jink and requires you to declare it before TO HIT rolls are made, which is after declaring the weapon.

 Lobomalo wrote:
The rule states when you have to & when you need to make this decision by.

No. It states when you have to do it and an end for any opportunity to do it.
It does not say "You can declare you're Jinking any time between being targeted and the first to hit roll" - which is what you're saying it does.

After reading through other topics you have posted in, it is best that I step away from the conversation before the thread gets closed and nothing is solved. You have made it clear in this conversation and in others that you simply like to bait people into unnecessary arguments and I am not going to engage you in this.

Now if you can somehow find a way to dispute the timing mechanic of the Jink window closing, and have either rule backing to go along with this or a convincing reason as to why this does not work I may re-engage in the discussion.

You don't need a reason to decide not to participate in an honest discussion, but if you think my behavior is below the board please feel free to report me.
I can assure you I am not baiting anyone - I'm trying to have a polite discussion.

I've shown you why your assertions are incorrect - your method literally breaks a rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

The rule does not require you declare when targeted. The rule gives you permission to use Jink and requires you to declare it before TO HIT rolls are made, which is after declaring the weapon.

It doesn't?

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

Is your copy different from mine? Or do you have a different definition of "When"?
When X happens, you may do Y. That doesn't give you allowance to do Y later.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

The rule does not require you declare when targeted. The rule gives you permission to use Jink and requires you to declare it before TO HIT rolls are made, which is after declaring the weapon.

This is my reading of the rules too.

English is pretty clear on the purpose of the conditional particle "may"

As in, it is not necessary, it is simply "Allowed".

In fact, if you simply ignore this part of the rules (as a rule that conditions with "May" literally has no bearing on this aspect of the game)

Then you are left with "Declare the jinx before to-hit rolls are made"

SO the second you pick up the dice to roll, meaning you've had to decide which weapon you're using, I can jinx.

This argument of "IT ONLY FULFILLS ONE CONDITION, MINE FULFILLS BOTH" is fallacious. You're basing the fulfillment of the rule on your own interpretation being true.

bryceloop wrote:
This is my reading of the rules too.

English is pretty clear on the purpose of the conditional particle "may"

As in, it is not necessary, it is simply "Allowed".

In fact, if you simply ignore this part of the rules (as a rule that conditions with "May" literally has no bearing on this aspect of the game)

Then you are left with "Declare the jinx before to-hit rolls are made"

No, you're not.

You're left with "The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made." What decision? Oh - the decision to delcare Jink. When is that decision made? Oh - when the unit is targeted.
Thanks for helping me understand that.

This argument of "IT ONLY FULFILLS ONE CONDITION, MINE FULFILLS BOTH" is fallacious. You're basing the fulfillment of the rule on your own interpretation being true.

Not at all. Please, explain how declaring Jink after step 3 fulfills the requirement to declare Jink when the unit is targeted.
This isn't my interpretation, it's literally what the rules say:

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

Although it's not exactly the original topic, I tend to agree with bryceloop. You are allowed to declare jink when target. This, the window for you to declare jink is from the moment that unit is targeted, up to just before the to hit dice is rolled. As long as you declare it within this time, it satisfies the rule. Because the word "may" was used to indicate "anytime from here on", up till the final moment of dice roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the wording has been "must" declare when targeted, then it would be done before weapon selection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops. I mean if it is phrased "you must declare if you wish to jink"

When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".