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17428 posts

When declared you may.

You must decide before to hit rolls are made.

Pretty clear Imo. Jinking player has a window of opportunity from the moment his unit is targetted until just before the to hit dice are rolled.

Pretty clear there are two conditions, not a window. The second condition is redundant, but makes it explicit when the declaration has to occur by.

The second condition is to say you have to do it before any shots, so you can't ignore boltguns then jink specialist weapons from the same unit. you can't not jink boltguns then jink the orbital bombardment that comes after from the same unit.

it's between saying "i'm shooting that" and rolling the first dice.

GW were probably trying to come up with the least confusable way to say "when a unit with jink is shot" to avoid people saying "the unit isn't shot until shots are rolled, they're only targetted so cannot jink ever" please stop twisting the rules around, in the end the only way to use this technique is to be TFG. "oh you jinked, I'll fire the bolter instead, that can't hurt you." don't be TFG.

if anyone can give me a scenario in which it matters as to whether they jink or not before you pick your gun that Doesn't mean you're pulling a trick that'll make the opponent say "FFS, what a w*nker" and be branded as TFG, please make it known.

dg3263827 wrote:rigeld2, Kojiro...

Humor me, please...

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

When you say two. Exactly like I've been saying all along. What, did you think wording my own example differently would change my answer?

Kyutaru wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought being targeted was the state? I'm relatively sure you mentioned that. Am I imagining it?

Am I to understand that you believe only a single state can be had at any particular time? Am I also to understand that you fail to see how "when targeted" and "selected as a target" mirror each other as identical in all but literal spelling? Am I only imagining you responding with some sort of knowledge of CONTEXT like the rules you adamantly defend? Yep, I did imagine it. Splitting hairs over something that is not a direct rules quote isn't exactly helping your side, just making it seem petty.

It's not splitting hairs - there's a distinct difference between being targeted and being selected as a target.
It's not me being petty, it's you being sloppy with wording when words are important.

rigeld2 wrote:

dg3263827 wrote:rigeld2, Kojiro...

Humor me, please...

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

When you say two. Exactly like I've been saying all along. What, did you think wording my own example differently would change my answer?

Can we all agree that "is selected as a target by a shoot attack" is Step 2 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Yes. OK, good.
Can we also agree that "before any To Hit rolls have been made" is before Step 4 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Also yes. Awesome.

Now, given that a unit may (MAY!) declare Jink at Step 2 and must (MUST!) declare Jink before Step 4, it is implied that it is acceptable to Jink at Step 3.

REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "You must be pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW!

 dg3263827 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

dg3263827 wrote:rigeld2, Kojiro...

Humor me, please...

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

When you say two. Exactly like I've been saying all along. What, did you think wording my own example differently would change my answer?

Can we all agree that "is selected as a target by a shoot attack" is Step 2 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Yes. OK, good.
Can we also agree that "before any To Hit rolls have been made" is before Step 4 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Also yes. Awesome.

Now, given that a unit may (MAY!) declare Jink at Step 2 and must (MUST!) declare Jink before Step 4, it is implied that it is acceptable to Jink at Step 3.

That's a great argument for what they intended to mean.
You may declare it at step 2. You don't have any permission to declare it after step 2 - you only have permission to declare when the unit is selected as a target.

REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "You must be pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW!

Except you completely ignored the first sentence of the Jink rule in your example. So no, it's not a breakdown of the RAW because you literally ignored a rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "You must be pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW!

Except you completely ignored the first sentence of the Jink rule in your example. So no, it's not a breakdown of the RAW because you literally ignored a rule.

I didn't ignore the first sentence... but okay, fine... let me rephrase this so that there is no way you can misunderstand....

You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "When you get this notice, you may pay. You must pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW

 dg3263827 wrote:
I didn't ignore the first sentence... but okay, fine... let me rephrase this so that there is no way you can misunderstand....

You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "When you get this notice, you may pay. You must pay before June 4."

If you don't pay on June 2, you suffer whatever penalties are involved. That's what "When X happens, you may Y." means.
If you pay on the 3rd, you didn't pay on the 2nd.

Okay. You're wrong. You have obviously never received a billing invoice or pay notice in your life.

The only reason I can come up with as to why you are so adamantly defending your position is that you are a WAAC player who doesn't run an army that can Jink. Either way, it seems your ignorance knows no bounds and I am officially wiping my hands of this.

 dg3263827 wrote:
Okay. You're wrong. You have obviously never received a billing invoice or pay notice in your life.

Incorrect assumption. Your example also doesn't correctly match the wording on billing invoices.

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

Rule #1 is a VERY important rule on Dakka Dakka, and following it is a mandatory condition to posting here.

It is also something everyone agreed to do when they signed up here.

Not sure if that was aimed at me or not. I did not intend to break any rules. I thought I explained my reasoning well. If it was please pm me and let me know, i don''t want to tbe TFG on the forums on accident.

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

You said I MAY jump. I chose not to.
Second Stipulation was that I had to Jump before you said Gotcha. I did that.

You now owe me 5$ plus interest.

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

You said I MAY jump. I chose not to.

And you lost any benefit from choosing to do so any time later.
You keep acting like that requirement is irrelevant. It's not. No one is forcing you to jump (Jink) - it's your option.

I guess this falls under the purview of the person who is choosing to jink. They have from the window of me declaring a target till the first dice hit the table. If he is not on his game about declaring to jink than he doesn't get to. In local games I will ask, but in general I will declare a target, count to two and then start selecting and rolling. If they miss it, its on them, I will give them one pass a game, but after that they need to learn.

If they dont have to declare until the to hit rolls are made than it is on them to make sure they declare it in time.

 Leth wrote:
I guess this falls under the purview of the person who is choosing to jink. They have from the window of me declaring a target till the first dice hit the table. If he is not on his game about declaring to jink than he doesn't get to. In local games I will ask, but in general I will declare a target, count to two and then start selecting and rolling. If they miss it, its on them, I will give them one pass a game, but after that they need to learn.

If they dont have to declare until the to hit rolls are made than it is on them to make sure they declare it in time.

Actually you would select a weapon first, then pause for the 2 count and then roll. The selection of a weapon precedes the roll to-hit so he has a second or two to decide.

Most players, they simply pick a weapon to shoot first, then the unit they are shooting at, ends up being easier for everyone this way and you don't get douche players who want to try and manipulate word usage in the rules

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I guess this falls under the purview of the person who is choosing to jink. They have from the window of me declaring a target till the first dice hit the table. If he is not on his game about declaring to jink than he doesn't get to. In local games I will ask, but in general I will declare a target, count to two and then start selecting and rolling. If they miss it, its on them, I will give them one pass a game, but after that they need to learn.

If they dont have to declare until the to hit rolls are made than it is on them to make sure they declare it in time.

Actually you would select a weapon first, then pause for the 2 count and then roll. The selection of a weapon precedes the roll to-hit so he has a second or two to decide.

Most players, they simply pick a weapon to shoot first, then the unit they are shooting at, ends up being easier for everyone this way and you don't get douche players who want to try and manipulate word usage in the rules

The two count is a courtesy, as far as I am concerned they have from the time I declare the target until I roll for a weapon to declare, just because they cut it close at the end to manipulate their options in their favor is a risk they are choosing to take. No skin off my back if their risk does not workout for them. Also this only matters in a unit with one weapon type. I can declare a type is firing and not actually fire a single shot with it. Its just that I cant shoot any of that weapon later.

The jink rule says you may declare it when you are targeted. You must do this before any to-hit rolls are made.

Nowhere does it say you have permission to declare jink at any other time other then when I declare the unit as the target. If you think that you may declare jink after I declare which weapon I am using then you must show me RAW support that says you may jink when I declare which weapon I am using.

There is nowhere in the jink rules that say you may jink after the opponent declares which weapon they are firing, only when they select the unit as the target.

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

You said I MAY jump. I chose not to.

And you lost any benefit from choosing to do so any time later.
You keep acting like that requirement is irrelevant. It's not. No one is forcing you to jump (Jink) - it's your option.

I chose to, just not immediately after you said banana.

Did I jump when you said Banana? No, it said you may.
Did I jump before you said Gotcha? Yes.

Nowhere does it say, if you don't jump when you said Banana you lose the right to jump.

an interesting interpretation i thought of:

you declare you're shooting a wave serpent with something that autohits but allows cover, EG the old weirdboy psychic power before it was FAQ's out. it doesn't jink.

you score a penetrating hit.

the serpent now jinks, as no rolls to hit have yet been made and so he still can, by some peoples wording.

I'm changing sides here. declare a target, decide to jink, pick a weapon. "before any rolls to hit" is just there to stop you jinking halfway through.

RJCarrot wrote:
Nowhere does it say, if you don't jump when you said Banana you lose the right to jump.

It doesn't say I can't so I can?
You have permission at one specific point. You're assuming permission at any other point. Prove permission.

It says jump before you say gotcha for 5$.

That was done.

No one asked for permission, you said jump before Gotcha for 5$, it was done.

RJCarrot wrote:
It says jump before you say gotcha for 5$.

That was done.

No one asked for permission, you said jump before Gotcha for 5$, it was done.

And you're ignoring the timing inherent in the first sentence. Exactly like you're ignoring the timing inherent in the first sentence of the Jink rule.
Which was my point. Thanks for proving it?

RJCarrot wrote:
It says jump before you say gotcha for 5$.

That was done.

No one asked for permission, you said jump before Gotcha for 5$, it was done.

Which would be find if we were dealing with a restrictive ruleset. Permissive ruleset only gives you permission to claim money after jumping after he says banana and not after he says orange.

The rule is still not clear. If it was, there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate.

Either way you still owe me 5$ but you can keep it, you probably need it more than I do.

RJCarrot wrote:
The rule is still not clear. If it was, there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate.

Either way you still owe me 5$ but you can keep it, you probably need it more than I do.

So you admit that your argument ignores the first sentence, but it's somehow not clear?
That doesn't make sense at all...

It doesn't ignore it. It says may. That implys you also may not. The stipulation on getting paid is Jumping Before you say gotcha.

Both things were done.

Now we can talk about jinking all you want, but your analogy is flawed.

Either way, the rule needs to be clarified.

RJCarrot wrote:
The rule is still not clear. If it was, there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate.

Either way you still owe me 5$ but you can keep it, you probably need it more than I do.

To me it seems plenty clear, you only have permission to declare jink when they declare the target, it doesn't say anywhere else in the rules that you may declare jink when the opponent declares which weapon he will use