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RJCarrot wrote:
It doesn't ignore it. It says may. That implys you also may not. The stipulation on getting paid is Jumping Before you say gotcha.

Both things were done.

Now we can talk about jinking all you want, but your analogy is flawed.

Either way, the rule needs to be clarified.

Yes - you may not. You may opt not to. You are not required to.
You gain no benefit from doing so, but you may opt not to.

Correct, but you do gain a benefit of Jumping before you say Gotcha, Which ya did.

RJCarrot wrote:
Correct, but you do gain a benefit of Jumping before you say Gotcha, Which ya did.

Where does it say that? Please highlight that for me because the quotes so far provided in this thread say nothing of the kind.

When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

Did jumping occur before you said Gotcha? Yes it did.

RJCarrot wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

Did jumping occur before you said Gotcha? Yes it did.

But it did not occur when I said Banana. So... yeah, no such thing as what I asked for which was for you to point out "you do gain a benefit of Jumping before you say Gotcha".
Thanks, again, for proving my point.

It is in bold. I am done though. You have provided me much amusement while waiting for work to be over with your inability to think past what you wanted to say vs what you said.

What you mean to say is.

I am going to say Banana,
When I say Banana, you MUST Jump before anything else is said. (or provide a time frame)
If you do so before I say Gotcha, then you get 5$

But either way you will argue just to argue. So Ima let this be before I start trolling this moot point.

I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

I am also in this camp. The way I read it is that the window of opportunity opens the moment that unit is targeted and closes when the dice are thrown.

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

RJCarrot wrote:
What you mean to say is.

Why would I mean to say that, when it's not even close to what the rule says?
And what I said is exactly what the rule says and supports my viewpoint?

No, I said what I meant to say.

17267 posts/1038 days of membership = 16 posts per day.



Simple English eludes people.

May is not must.

may =/= must

The window opens at step 2 (may). Proceeds thru selecting weapons (step 3) and closes the instant before "to hit" rolls are made (step 4).

Edit: clarifications and rewording.

jamesk1973 wrote:
Simple english eludes people.

Amended Jink Rule wrote:AFTER a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.

See how easy that was? And it clears up all the confusion. If someone has a poor grasp of English it is the writers of these rules. As people have said 'when' can mean at a specific, immediate moment (when the crosshairs are on the target, pull the trigger*) or it can mean an ongoing state (when I grow up...) with a specific start point. Any rules writer worth a damn should be able to look at a rule and ask 'is this as clear as it can be?' This very argument is a testament to the fact that whoever wrote this- and granted I'm only assuming their intent was to clearly explain the rules- has failed at that task.

A few pages back I posted the WM/H little used but actually existent timing chart. I want that level of clarity and precision from GW and there is no acceptable reason for it not being present by the 7th edition of the game.




*Or if you like, when the crosshairs are on you, jink!

 Kojiro wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

This is another one where I would do it in friendly play, but in tournament play I am not going to remember your rules for you. I am not going to remind you about hit and run, or anything of that nature. If you forget and constantly get do-overs you are never going to remember. I will do it once per game, but after that its on you.

jamesk1973 wrote:
17267 posts/1038 days of membership = 16 posts per day.

Post count is irrelevant. I'm not sure why you even bring it up except as an attempt to insult me. That's not very polite, and a mod has already warned the thread.

Simple English eludes people.

More unwarranted rudeness.

May is not must.

may =/= must

The window opens at step 2 (may). Proceeds thru selecting weapons (step 3) and closes the instant before "to hit" rolls are made (step 4).

Edit: clarifications and rewording.

No, that's only true if you ignore the first sentence. When X happens you may do Y. Nothing is forcing you to do Y, that's why it says "may".

I agree with rigeld on the interpretation but not based on his explanation, more so on the point where the only time you are given permission to jink is when your opponent declares the target, nowhere does it say you may declare jink when your opponent declares which weapon he/she will be firing.

Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

Naw wrote:
Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

Well for instance I could bring a monolith and declare 3 different targets on average and you would not know which unit I will be shooting my particle whip at and which weapons I will be shooting the tickle guns at. Same goes for split fire units, declare your shooting at 2 serpents with some Long Fangs and then fire a boltgun at one and the MLs at the other

I don't really see an issue here.

Rules wise I see my opportunity of jinking close when you roll to hit. If you declared several targets I would ask what weapons are used against each target.

I also don't have an issue of declaring jinking with all once you have decided to target them and told me what weapons there are.

So those are two examples and there are a few more, I am sure. I suppose this all falls back to the topic and combi weapons.

Just jink, save everyone's time.

 Leth wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

This is another one where I would do it in friendly play, but in tournament play I am not going to remember your rules for you. I am not going to remind you about hit and run, or anything of that nature. If you forget and constantly get do-overs you are never going to remember. I will do it once per game, but after that its on you.

The onus of rules remembering is on the owning player (in tournaments). Technically legal, although probably not good sportsmanship. (Assuming tourneys track such things.)

I know that I certainly don't do it in a tourney unless I feel like I'm pretty sure to win and just want to make up ground with my opponent socially, in order to finagle a higher sportsmanship score.

Here's a question though: this is pretty much the only example I can think of like this. (Where your opponent has to declare something in between two of YOUR actions, giving you the opportunity to do them so fast he doesn't even get a chance to make the declaration.) Is there a minimum time period we should be allowing for the declaration?

I'm for the window, you do have to give your opponent a chance to say something.

I can easily go, in less time than it takes you to read the sentence.
(1)these orks are shooting (2)those jinkers, (3)starting with big shootas, (4)/rolls 9d6.

I followed the sequence, oh you want to jink? sorry you didn't speak up quick enough.

Play nice people, stop and ask if your opponent if they would care to jink when you think it should be declared.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

This is another one where I would do it in friendly play, but in tournament play I am not going to remember your rules for you. I am not going to remind you about hit and run, or anything of that nature. If you forget and constantly get do-overs you are never going to remember. I will do it once per game, but after that its on you.

The onus of rules remembering is on the owning player (in tournaments). Technically legal, although probably not good sportsmanship. (Assuming tourneys track such things.)

I know that I certainly don't do it in a tourney unless I feel like I'm pretty sure to win and just want to make up ground with my opponent socially, in order to finagle a higher sportsmanship score.

Here's a question though: this is pretty much the only example I can think of like this. (Where your opponent has to declare something in between two of YOUR actions, giving you the opportunity to do them so fast he doesn't even get a chance to make the declaration.) Is there a minimum time period we should be allowing for the declaration?

I am going to give them at least a two count minimum. The amount of time it will typically require me to measure range to a target, declare a target, grab my dice, declare a weapon and then shoot is more then enough time to determine if you are going to jink or not, which is only fair. I will give them until we see the hit results to choose to jink or not, so while the dice are still moving they are good. After that its too late. Hell I expect them to have decided in their head by the time they see me measuring ranges. They will have plenty of time to decide before I even declare.

Once again in learning games I will help them for the first two-three turns, and then in friendlies I will be more relaxed about it. However in competition I will let it slide once, and then its on you to remember. Plus if they forget once and dont get take-backsies they are more likely to remember the rest of the game.

I dont want to sound like an donkey-cave, in friendly games I have been rolling armor penetration when they wanted to declare jink and I have been cool with it. Hell in the final table of the last tournament I let a guy hit and run from the previous turn during his shooting phase as well as cheat because I didnt want an arguement.

Naw wrote:
Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

I have a single combi-Melta left. Shooting it at you when you Jink significantly increases the chance I waste it. So your decision to Jink influences my decision to fire it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Naw wrote:
Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

I have a single combi-Melta left. Shooting it at you when you Jink significantly increases the chance I waste it. So your decision to Jink influences my decision to fire it.

As a Salamander player who fields combi-meltas on almost every model that can take one, I think this situation would come up frequently.

So fire a krak grenade first to see what they decide to do.

Unless there is only one model in the unit without a combi weapon then this should take care of it.

I am not too worried about it as I figure most players would not want to risk forgetting to wait and see what you fire

Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

Naw wrote:
Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

But that means he makes you fire snapshots next turn just by firing a bolter at you.

A marine raises a combi weapon at you... are you really gonna wait to see which barrel flashes before taking evasive action?

 milkboy wrote:

Naw wrote:
Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

But that means he makes you fire snapshots next turn just by firing a bolter at you.

Is that a problem? Isn't that what is supposed to happen? My unit would still be alive, able to get distance or do whatever.

Naw wrote:

 milkboy wrote:

Naw wrote:
Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

But that means he makes you fire snapshots next turn just by firing a bolter at you.

Is that a problem? Isn't that what is supposed to happen? My unit would still be alive, able to get distance or do whatever.

But normally a bolter shouldn't be able to penetrate any vehicle. And 1 in 6 chance to glance things with AV 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if your skimmer is AV 11, you have jinked for no benefit.

I know that. But I also know you have melta weapons in range. If you don't shoot with them, I have gained more than I have lost.

Like I said, that is how I would play it even if the rules allowed me to wait until you declare what you shoot. I don't expect anyone to do it like this:

"I target your jinker." [pause] "You may jink. You don't yet? I fire my meltas." [pause] "You may still jink..? And you do." [roll for to hit]

It would be more like declaring target, waiting/discussing what arsenal you got, then announce what you fire with and throw dice for those.

I am also quite sure the intent was to force the decision earlier, but they failed with the rules.