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Ferros wrote:
see guise you just dont get it chaos is invulnerable and all powerful and will not ever be defeated because its schroedinger and forever and infinite lawl

But in all seriousness, can you please contribute to the discussion besides telling everyone that Chaos can never, ever, ever be beat because it is infinity +1.

While a lot of things are open to interpretation, for instance, I think we can assume that since Chaos has not gone back in time to arbitrarily slaughter everything on stone age Earth and ensure the Emperor never comes into being, it is not all powerful or as capable of time travel as they suggest. -Yes, I say this aware that ships have arrived before leaving and all those other temporal anomalies with warp travel.
Furthermore, if it were all powerful, I doubt the Emperor would have been able to banish the combined mind of all four Gods from Horus and annihilate his soul in its entirety.

Meanwhile, Necrons have been shown to, on mass scale, be able to shut down the Warp on mass scale. The Eye of Terror, after all, is being held back (specifically at Cadia) by Pylons.
Pylons are able to blunt the Eye of Terror of all things.

Chaos is scary, and has potential, but to imply let alone *demand* that everyone here accept it is the Holy Avenger +5 of Warhammer is ridiculous and childish.

Strike Force Ultra Data sheet.
477.M39 By the Dying Light
Daemonic servants of Tzeentch create Warp rifts inside each of the twin suns of Haark. Soon, the leering faces upon the stars drive the entire population of the system insane, but the Daemons’ incessant bickering triggers a duel-nova event. With the fate of the system now measured in hours, the Black Consuls Chapter send in Strike Force Ultra Varnor to recover sacred relics from the time of their founding. Captain Varnor and his brothers brave both Daemons and madmen in the burning cities of Haark to collect the relics, narrowly escaping into the void only moments before the stars die spectacularly

I don't make gak up. I'm just repeating what's in the fluff.

The Warp and the 'material' Universe are not really separate. Their plan is a futile one at best, or actually universe ending at worst. What they want is something that cannot be, just as if they wanted a universe without gravity.

 Daba wrote:
The Warp and the 'material' Universe are not really separate. Their plan is a futile one at best, or actually universe ending at worst. What they want is something that cannot be, just as if they wanted a universe without gravity.

How the hell are they not separate? The warp is an alternate dimension made of ID that is ripping portals into the materium and threatening to swallow it up. Although correctly, the Warp is another universe, not another dimension.

Why do people assume that the Warp = Chaos. The Warp is not just made by Chaos but the minds of all those who are connected to it. It has been said several times that the Emperor has his power because the whole of the Imperium believe him to be a God giving his presence in the Warp that much power and how he guides the Astropaths and Navigators of the Imperium and has been able to perform miracles when people invoke his name. Its what happened on the Eisenstein with Keeler and what gave her the ability to banish a daemon. This shows how much of a powerful being the Emperor is/was and shows that any mind can have an effect on the Warp and when enough people believe in one thing, it creates it to give it power.

Chaos has power because people believe in it, it is the fuel that powers the warp which is why Chaos is dependent on its worshippers. It's the reason why there is Sanctic Daemonology and Malefic Daemonology because the wielders mind is what gives it the power and how the Grey Knights can make their warp powers be the antithesis of Chaos. The Warp is not Chaos, Chaos is just made of the Warp. The Warp is a tool that was created to give an edge to the Eldar against the Necrons. Just because someone uses warp born powers does not automatically make them an agent of Chaos especially with a force like the Grey Knights. Chaos being a warp born power doesn't automatically make it the best thing in the universe able to stand up to anything and be invincible.

This is the reason why Chaos can be self-defeating but the Warp will continue to exist. The Warp doesn't care if Chaos exists or not. Just like any power, balance exists so both sides can exist.

As Ferros pointed out above, the powers of Chaos are not all powerful because if they were, the IoM wouldn't exist and the only way to play a human was to play a form of Chaos. The Emperor wouldn't have done what he was able to do either.

As far as getting back, I forgot about the Pylons on Cadia and I wonder what would happen if the Necrons were able to re-discover that technology and what would happen if they truly were able to shut down the warp. Also without the energy of beings connected to the warp, I almost would say the warp might collapse on itself.

 Envihon wrote:
Why do people assume that the Warp = Chaos. The Warp is not just made by Chaos but the minds of all those who are connected to it. It has been said several times that the Emperor has his power because the whole of the Imperium believe him to be a God giving his presence in the Warp that much power and how he guides the Astropaths and Navigators of the Imperium and has been able to perform miracles when people invoke his name. Its what happened on the Eisenstein with Keeler and what gave her the ability to banish a daemon. This shows how much of a powerful being the Emperor is/was and shows that any mind can have an effect on the Warp and when enough people believe in one thing, it creates it to give it power.

Chaos has power because people believe in it, it is the fuel that powers the warp which is why Chaos is dependent on its worshippers. It's the reason why there is Sanctic Daemonology and Malefic Daemonology because the wielders mind is what gives it the power and how the Grey Knights can make their warp powers be the antithesis of Chaos. The Warp is not Chaos, Chaos is just made of the Warp. The Warp is a tool that was created to give an edge to the Eldar against the Necrons. Just because someone uses warp born powers does not automatically make them an agent of Chaos especially with a force like the Grey Knights. Chaos being a warp born power doesn't automatically make it the best thing in the universe able to stand up to anything and be invincible.

This is the reason why Chaos can be self-defeating but the Warp will continue to exist. The Warp doesn't care if Chaos exists or not. Just like any power, balance exists so both sides can exist.

As Ferros pointed out above, the powers of Chaos are not all powerful because if they were, the IoM wouldn't exist and the only way to play a human was to play a form of Chaos. The Emperor wouldn't have done what he was able to do either.

As far as getting back, I forgot about the Pylons on Cadia and I wonder what would happen if the Necrons were able to re-discover that technology and what would happen if they truly were able to shut down the warp. Also without the energy of beings connected to the warp, I almost would say the warp might collapse on itself.

Chaos is the warp for all intents and purposes however because they have sole dominion over it as the most powerful faction. Additionally, why does the existence of the Imperium disprove the evidence backing Chaos being an absolute power, when much of what we know about the Chaos Gods themselves points to them viewing the universe little more than a simple extension of the Great Game? It's no different than a small child keeping an ant farm, the only difference is that the Chaos Gods have to contend with the God Emperor, a new rising god within the Warp that is capable of holding them back, or at least from critical areas. Daemons are more than capable of destroying a star near Terra to wash it clean of all life with the gamma rays that would bombard it in the near future, however they seem to not to do for whatever reason, be it the GEOM holding them back or the owner of the limb not wishing to end their only real competition.

Also, again, for the last time, Chaos and nor the warp will not perish even if the Necrons somehow cordon it off- they'd move onto another universe to feed on.

"The forms the live-things called Chaos, in their limited little ways of perceiving the omni-verse, swarmed and thrived in this infinite ocean of mind and emotion. The daemon moved with Stele. Waiting, waiting and watching for the moment when the thrashing and chattering of the quarry was at its peak. Only then would it strike, lapping up the absolute perfection of its fear, sinking in rending teeth, tearing it to soul- shreds."
Pg.106 Deus Sanguinius

“A miss indicates that the missile has left Warpspace at the wrong point – and this could be anywhere in any of the million universes.”
pg.37 Adeptus Titanicus

That is hardly evidence of Chaos forces being all powerful, only that the Warp has properties that we can never fathom.

Daemons are dependent on having a foothold in the material universe, cut this off and they are sent back into the warp. It's why when they get banished they have wait in order to come back in and why the Inquisition can keep record of when a certain daemon is about to be able to attempt to come back into the material universe. It's why the Shadow in the Warp cuts daemons ties with the universe.

Chaos uses the Warp and might be great at it but that doesn't make it all powerful, otherwise a GK wouldn't be able to shut them down like they can. Daemons can't destroy things near Terra because that is where the presence of the Emperor is the strongest thus it is his will keeping them back once more showing the might of the Emperor himself and as it was stated before, the Emperor basically told the 4 that they could go feth themselves and banished them from his presence thus they had to use his sons to get back at him. All powerful they are not.

 Envihon wrote:
That is hardly evidence of Chaos forces being all powerful, only that the Warp has properties that we can never fathom.

Daemons are dependent on having a foothold in the material universe, cut this off and they are sent back into the warp. It's why when they get banished they have wait in order to come back in and why the Inquisition can keep record of when a certain daemon is about to be able to attempt to come back into the material universe. It's why the Shadow in the Warp cuts daemons ties with the universe.

Chaos uses the Warp and might be great at it but that doesn't make it all powerful, otherwise a GK wouldn't be able to shut them down like they can. Daemons can't destroy things near Terra because that is where the presence of the Emperor is the strongest thus it is his will keeping them back once more showing the might of the Emperor himself and as it was stated before, the Emperor basically told the 4 that they could go feth themselves and banished them from his presence thus they had to use his sons to get back at him. All powerful they are not.

Except they don't need a foothold, and apparently can appear whenever they wish unless it's heavily warded like the Golden Throne. But there was no summoning involved for the twin Tzeentch daemons to possess the stars, merely they popped into a system at will an accidentally blew up a system. Also, no, where the warp goes, Chaos goes, as Chaos rules over the immaterium and there is no reason to believe that Chaos lacks access to the other universes/multiverse, the 40k galaxy is simply just one of the innumerable possible universes which Chaos has access to (and was birthed from). Also, the Grey Knights only combat daemons, not the actual might of the Chaos Gods when they're mobilized for war. The only time we've ever seen Chaos actually seriously attack somebody was the Horus Heresy and the crippling of the Imperium as the pawns fell in place.

(Also, the GEOM still is unlikely close to the power of even Slaanesh given the shear stupid amount of Eldar souls Slaanesh reaped during the Fall. GEOM's big enough to be a large stone that can't be moved, but small enough that it doesn't threaten to squash Chaos when they try to budge it.)

Necrons have the technology to essentially play god in the real universe. They cannot do anything in the warp, but if they had the galaxy under control, they could quite conceivable establish pylons at all the required areas and cut off chaos's ability to spill through weak points.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
That is hardly evidence of Chaos forces being all powerful, only that the Warp has properties that we can never fathom.

Daemons are dependent on having a foothold in the material universe, cut this off and they are sent back into the warp. It's why when they get banished they have wait in order to come back in and why the Inquisition can keep record of when a certain daemon is about to be able to attempt to come back into the material universe. It's why the Shadow in the Warp cuts daemons ties with the universe.

Chaos uses the Warp and might be great at it but that doesn't make it all powerful, otherwise a GK wouldn't be able to shut them down like they can. Daemons can't destroy things near Terra because that is where the presence of the Emperor is the strongest thus it is his will keeping them back once more showing the might of the Emperor himself and as it was stated before, the Emperor basically told the 4 that they could go feth themselves and banished them from his presence thus they had to use his sons to get back at him. All powerful they are not.

Except they don't need a foothold, and apparently can appear whenever they wish unless it's heavily warded like the Golden Throne. But there was no summoning involved for the twin Tzeentch daemons to possess the stars, merely they popped into a system at will an accidentally blew up a system. Also, no, where the warp goes, Chaos goes, as Chaos rules over the immaterium and there is no reason to believe that Chaos lacks access to the other universes/multiverse, the 40k galaxy is simply just one of the innumerable possible universes which Chaos has access to (and was birthed from). Also, the Grey Knights only combat daemons, not the actual might of the Chaos Gods when they're mobilized for war. The only time we've ever seen Chaos actually seriously attack somebody was the Horus Heresy and the crippling of the Imperium as the pawns fell in place.

(Also, the GEOM still is unlikely close to the power of even Slaanesh given the shear stupid amount of Eldar souls Slaanesh reaped during the Fall. GEOM's big enough to be a large stone that can't be moved, but small enough that it doesn't threaten to squash Chaos when they try to budge it.)

It has been said several times that the Emperor is what keeps most of the Imperium safe from the Chaos Gods through his sheer force of will. The Emperor is quite simply the last God of Order since all the Eldar Gods fell. The Chaos Gods are not masters of the Warp because otherwise, the Emperor would of never ascended to God-hood in the first place and the Eldar Gods wouldn't of existed as well. Not only that but several psykers go in and aren't touched or corrupted by the warp in the slightest. This is evidenced by the fact that the Rune Priests are able to ward themselves to have an antithesis to Chaos, this is seen in A Thousand Sons when a Rune Priest rescues Ahriman from a daemon. Draigo is still walking around the warp uncorrupted and making his own place within the warp through his sheer force of will.

And daemons most certainly need a way to get into the material world, only through tears in the material realm can they come unassisted. If the veil is thin at a certain place, they can influence those to work in their stead and then have them create the gateway for them to come into the material verse but other than that, daemons can not will themselves wherever they like to get to a certain place and usually need the help of mortals in order to do it. It is why the Inquisition and the Grey Knights can banish daemons and why the Shadow in the Warp from the Tyranids works in first place. Mortarion can not come into the material universe right now because Draigo used his true name to banish his daemonic nature so he had to retreat to the warp to regenerate. If Chaos was THE force of the warp, these acts wouldn't exist and you wouldn't be able to use the warp against Chaos but as we have seen multiple times from various entities they are able to turn the warp into the antithesis of Chaos and thus banish them. The Illuminati wouldn't exist who were possessed by Chaos then were able to overcome the daemon by their own will to dispel the daemon and thus become totally immune to possession because they know now they have mastered Chaos within themselves and can block themselves from the corrupting influence. If Chaos was all encompassing, so ubiquitous that they are the warp, these things wouldn't exist at all. The Webway wouldn't exist because that is setting order to the Chaotic forces of the warp but it does it exist through the sheer will of the Eldar.

Chaos are denizens of the warp, not the master of it. Do they have knowledge of the warp that others do not? Yes they do but the warp can still be used against Chaos and it happens quite frequently.