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Being in the military, it kind of frustrates me to see the overwatch rules.

Overwatch means something completely different to me.

Watching dudes charge me in real life won't hinder my ability to fire accurately on them. In fact them running closer to me makes it easier I don't even have to aim.

It's a worthless rule and needs to be removed. You get your chance to shoot during your turn.

Now where overwatch should come into play is in a scenario where, let's say for instance, your model has not moved and basically pulling security. An eldar cheese wiz guy jumps into view, if my space marine is pulling overwatch or security I should have an opportunity to fire but not be able to fire or move on my next turn.

That's the actual definition of overwatch.

GWs definition is not accurate and misguided. The closer an object is to you the easier to shoot at from the hip. So in theory. If an ork was charging me from 30 feet away, I have plenty of time to point my weapon in the direction and get a center mass shot off. I know because I've trained over 15 years doing this. It's called reflexive firing

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Being in the military, it kind of frustrates me to see the overwatch rules.

Overwatch means something completely different to me.

Watching dudes charge me in real life won't hinder my ability to fire accurately on them. In fact them running closer to me makes it easier I don't even have to aim.

It's a worthless rule and needs to be removed. You get your chance to shoot during your turn.

Now where overwatch should come into play is in a scenario where, let's say for instance, your model has not moved and basically pulling security. An eldar cheese wiz guy jumps into view, if my space marine is pulling overwatch or security I should have an opportunity to fire but not be able to fire or move on my next turn.

That's the actual definition of overwatch.

GWs definition is not accurate and misguided. The closer an object is to you the easier to shoot at from the hip. So in theory. If an ork was charging me from 30 feet away, I have plenty of time to point my weapon in the direction and get a center mass shot off. I know because I've trained over 15 years doing this. It's called reflexive firing

Gw did it to get rid of a 2nd shooting phase. I agree though, it makes no sense. It would be easier to hit something charging at you and honestly, someone yelling at you wouldn't change how you fire

I think this belongs in the background section...

I believe the fluff explanation for overwatch fire is troopers hastily getting a few shots off before switching to whatever combat weapon they have at hand.

I justify overwatch as an 'additional' chance to hit while the target is getting closer and not a separate action.

For example, your space marine shoots my slugga boyz. he makes 2 bolter shots that result in 1.33 hits (statistically). But the boyz are approaching so that it's easier for the space marine to aim and when they charge, he shoots overwatch resulting in another 0.33 hits. So, the way i present it, he hits the approaching enemy 1.66 times instead of 1.33 hits vs a further-away enemy.

So, how about this: if a unit doesn't shoot in its shooting phase or assault in its assault phase, you may declare the use of the Overwatch rule. Units using the Overwatch rule may shoot at the end of their opponent's next shooting phase, after all enemy shooting has been completed and morale tests have been taken.

Overwatch was done to prevent situations where an opponent charged you without you having any chance to respond, which is an artifact of the Igo-Ugo system. Barring the abandonment of that system, I think it is needed, but I think it needs to be heavily reworked.

First, I'm not sure why it doesn't function the way Interceptor does, in that you can fire Overwatch, but you can't then shoot again in your next phase. This would prevent the situation where an enemy closes with you, taking fire from your unit, then charges you, and takes fire from overwatch, and fails to charge (for whatever reason), and takes fire from you a third time. Your unit has some shooting capacity. If you choose to use it shooting at these guys charging you, that's the shooting. Not more shooting again on your turn. You already GOT your turn's shooting. I think if you did this, you might not NEED to make Overwatch snap shooting.


Second, overwatch needs to exist alongside other possible reactions to being charged. As it is, it's JUST a boost to shootier units. If you had other viable choices when being charged, then overwatch wouldn't be so useful to shootier armies.

If you could choose to 'fall back', then you would give up overwatch, but (for sake of argument), subtract a d6 from the enemy's charge range.

If you chose to advance, you might add d6 to the enemy's charge range (representing troops which want to get to grips with the enemy, like maybe orks or tyranids). If you are a dedicated CC unit, making sure that you get as many troops in base contact as possible might be worth the loss of some shooting (especially if you don't have any!)

If you chose to hold, you couldn't fire Overwatch, but maybe the enemy would be denied their +1 attack charge bonus.

Those are just suggestions, but it would allow accurate Overwatch fire, without the current side effects of privileging shootier armies. The balance might not be perfect, but it's an off-the-cuff idea.

I agree with you that their Overwatch isn't realistic, because it should be pretty easy to hit the guy who chooses to move towards you instead of staying in cover. I just also think it isn't realistic because, in the game, Overwatch gives you MORE SHOTS, rather than just protecting your allocated shooting from an artifact of Igo-Ugo.

Yeah, if you view Overwatch as a sort of bonus set of shots rather than an actual shooting phase it makes a tad more sense.

Of course, as pointed out, a technically correct Overwatch would happen in the enemy's movement phase similar to Interceptor.

My problem with over watch is that it slows down the game immensely, having to dig up twenty dice every time on of my guard squads get charged. On the other hand, before over watch there was a good chance that your short range weapons (meltas, flamers, pistols) might no get fired at all since chargers can start their turn more than 8"-12" away. A quick fix could be only templates and pistols can over watch. 2 template hits, one pistol auto hit. The rapid fire weapon double shot already accounts for short range fire. I just really hate rolling up 60 dice for a conscript squad when only 1/54 of my shots will wound a charging space marine.

In general, snap shots are fine for vehicles and heavy weapons since they're high impact weapons. But snap shot infantry just drags the game to a crawl.

If you make it something like interceptor with full bs so that you basically get 2 free turns of shooting before getting charged, i don't know how soon will you see anything mellee-oriented other than 2++ rerollable. I'm playing orkses (mellee oriented army, yep) and i can tell you that > 50% times i prefer not to charge at all with my boyz cause it's way better to just stand and shoot rather than risk 4+ inch charges, and challenges. If i stand and shoot i can at least position my powerklaw the way it can't be challenged out if i get charged while it's almost uncontrollable with random charges. Besides, i get overwatch myself. I've failed 3' charges in the open so often that it's not even funny. And failing a charge with a mellee-oriented army is gamebreaking. Dakka ftw. Feth broken mellee.
Remove overwatch completely and it's gona be better than it's now.

Da Butcha wrote:

First, I'm not sure why it doesn't function the way Interceptor does, in that you can fire Overwatch, but you can't then shoot again in your next phase. I think if you did this, you might not NEED to make Overwatch snap shooting.

I think this isn't a bad idea. Overwatch used to require you forgo a turns shooting to gain the ability to shoot during your enemies movement phase (which was when charges occurred) and, like the new form of Jink, I like the choice of taking an action now that could limit your effectiveness later.

I'm not 100% sure I would allow it to be at full BS, but it would be forgoing full BS shooting next round... Maybe.

Da Butcha wrote:

Second, overwatch needs to exist alongside other possible reactions to being charged. As it is, it's JUST a boost to shootier units. If you had other viable choices when being charged, then overwatch wouldn't be so useful to shootier armies.

Snip "Fall Back, Advance, Hold"

I absolutely LOVE the idea of having a couple of different charge reactions! I love the way the worked when I used to play Fantasy, and even if some would complain about more Fantasy rules being passed over, I thin key could add some really interesting options.

Hold. Sounds good as it is, removing charges bonuses but not firing.
Fall Back. I would assume you instantly break and move 2D6. Fearless units may not choose this option. If your move doesn't take you beyond charge range of the charging unit, you are destroyed.
Advance. Not sure on this one. I feel gaining the unit it's charge bonuses would be too much, but I also think moving more into contact isn't enough to make people choose it as a response. I suppose units with no guns might find it useful.
Shooting Retreat. Unit may Snapfire on the Charging unit but then breaks and moves D6. Fearless units may not choose this option. If your move doesn't take you beyond charge range of the charging unit, you are destroyed.
Overwatch. Given my Firing Retreat option, Overwatch can be full BS firing but may not shoot in your next turn.

What do you think of those options? Are they roughly equal choices? Obviously, some units will always find one option more useful, but some might adjust for various scenarios?

Jefffar wrote:
Of course, as pointed out, a technically correct Overwatch would happen in the enemy's movement phase similar to Interceptor.

We used to have that 20 years ago and what it looked like was two armies standing still and declaring Overwatch every turn and the first one to get bored and move forward lost.

If you like multiple reaction options, tho, have a look around my WIP 40k build.

https://sites.google.com/site/potica40k/assault-phase

Thoughts on Charge reactions. I think the following would be appropriate. The unit being charged must do one of the following unless it has Gone to Ground. I incorporated the Ld check mechanic because keeping control of the unit in the face of a charging enemy is difficult, and because Tau are low Ld and benefit immensely from the ability to shoot charging enemies.

1) Covering Fire: unit makes a Ld check, can fire at the charging unit with full BS, but may only Snap Shot in its next turn. Fail the check and no shots fired. Replaces Overwatch.

2) Counter Attack: Unit makes Ld check, can advance 1D6 inches towards the charging unit. Unit counts as having made a charge. Units with the Counter Attack special rule can do so without a Ld check.

3) Fall Back: Unit makes a Ld check. If it succeedes it may move 1D6 inches away from the charging unit. If it fails, it begins to fall back as normal (which is bad news if the charge still catches them). Fearless units may not do this.

4) Hold: Unit makes a Ld check, charging loses their charge bonus as the unit they are attacking is ready and waiting for them. Failed Ld check means unit receiving the charge is treated as if they had gone to ground.

That's pretty cool on paper but is obviously a net gain for units being charged, so it would need to come packaged with some pretty hefty bonuses to assaults, which are near hopeless as is. Moving away from chargers is especially heinous and basically an automatic death sentence for the assaulter, and with Space Marines even failing the Ld test is not a drawback.

That's one of the reasons I made it somewhat unreliable, with the Ld check.

To be honest, I don't think melee should play that huge a role in 40k. Yeah, I know this is a Tau player saying this, but my other army is Space Wolves, so its not like I'm melee adverse just for advantage here. There seems to be a disconnect about a world in which a typical trooper can carry an energy weapon or 20mm rocket propelled grenade launcher as a sidearm and a reliance on swords and axes to do the dirty work. Orks and 'nids I can forgive, but humans and Eldar should really know better. At least Necrons and Tau have mostly figured it out.

I don't mind assaults being tricky to pull off, the fact that they essentially result in the death of the unit charged if done right is a good enough payoff to make them still worthwhile to attempt every so often, but they really shouldn't be the primary strategy.

A Leadership to accomplish these reactions is a good idea. It improves the value of Leadership, which I find creates more interesting games, whereas currently many armies almost ignore psychological effects on the field.

Getting their charge bonus from Counter Attack is a pretty big deal, I wouldn't include the D6 movement. Also, what is the Failure state of this option? All the others have one. At the moment it is just a good idea to do it. Failure state = no 'overwatch', no bonuses, just receive the charge?

I'm rethinking Fall Back, simply because it requires an extra set of moving models before finally resolving the charging units movement as well. Is there a way of streamlining this? Charging unit rolls one die less than usual for the charge?

Not sure what the failure should be for Counter Attack, other than maybe moving forward without counting as charging, potentially making the enemy's charge successful.