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 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Naw wrote:
I would argue that as the only reason the DT can scout move is to carry a unit with the scout rule onboard, therefore the unit inside also is making the scout redeployment.

How does that then affect their ability to assault? With assault vehicle, it shouldn't matter as the vehicle gives them a permission to do so.

Except that isnt how permissions work. You have permission to assault despite disembarking from a vehicle, but are prohibited from assaulting due to having made a Scout move. Permission granted, but permission denied. Or would you claim a unit arriving frmo reserve inside an Assault Vehicle could still assault that turn?

(ANd yes, this is exactly analogous, before you claim it isnt relevant)

The unit grants the DT "Scout" rule. That does not require the unit is also making a Scout redeployment. Again, if this is your claim, then prove why you are allowed to still move 12", when the Infantry unit is restricting you to 6"

Just double checking but this is the "Scouting Land Raider with Termies does not allow the terminators to charge turn 1.1" group right?

Sorry, this question was actually aimed at Nosferatu:
I'm a little confused by the "claiming" rule A or B, so i'll put it in simple questions (aimed at everyone involved)

By RaW, an infantry unit embarked on an assault DT with the scout rule confers it to their transport.
1) How far is this transport (with infantry passengers) allowed to re-deploy? 6" or 12"?
2) May the occupants charge out of the assault vehicle after it moved 6" on Turn 1?

I'm seeing an argument, but no real clear answers from all sides?

 BlackTalos wrote:
By RaW, an infantry unit embarked on an assault DT with the scout rule confers it to their transport.
1) How far is this transport (with infantry passengers) allowed to re-deploy? 6" or 12"?
2) May the occupants charge out of the assault vehicle after it moved 6" on Turn 1?

I thought I'd been pretty clear - not sure how you've interpreted otherwise.
1) 12". Indisputable.
2) Yes.

The reason I've asked dissenters how far the transport can redeploy is because they're asserting the Infantry inside are also redeploying. Since infantry can only redeploy 6", and the assertion is that they're redeploying as well, an answer of 12" cannot be correct as it'd violate the Infantry's redeployment range.

"Dissenters" great term for people wanting to play the game as intended :-)

To put things in a clear perspective, rules lawyering besides, if you use a scouting land raider to make a turn one assault, you are not playing 40k as its meant to be played. You are gaming the rules to cheat, and frankly I would pack up at that point.

Of course on YMDC keep on debating it. ;-)

(If it wasn't clear, this post is HIWPI, no turn one assault)

Captyn_Bob wrote:
"Dissenters" great term for people wanting to play the game as intended :-)

To put things in a clear perspective, rules lawyering besides, if you use a scouting land raider to make a turn one assault, you are not playing 40k as its meant to be played. You are gaming the rules to cheat, and frankly I would pack up at that point.

Of course on YMDC keep on debating it. ;-)

(If it wasn't clear, this post is HIWPI, no turn one assault)

Cool. Which member of the studio are you, to make the extraordinary claim to intent of "how the game should be played" that you jsut did?

It's pretty clear the rules are specifically written in order to prevent 1st turn assaults as everything that could possibly do it get's stated out right that it can't or has some sort of restriction either from deployment or otherwise to not be able to do it if it gets a special rule that allows weird deployment.

I can't even think of a unit with out a little trickery due to deployment of forces being able to assault on the first turn.

They clearly don't want it to happen.

RAW though kind of looks like yeah it works sort of. I doubt people would be okay with you doing it and doubt a tournament would allow it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
By RaW, an infantry unit embarked on an assault DT with the scout rule confers it to their transport.
1) How far is this transport (with infantry passengers) allowed to re-deploy? 6" or 12"?
2) May the occupants charge out of the assault vehicle after it moved 6" on Turn 1?

I thought I'd been pretty clear - not sure how you've interpreted otherwise.
2) Yes.

Interpreted this one to be "the same" on both side, so the correction has been made, thanks.
So the line "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn" does not apply to the unit embarked until FAQed or specified?

I can also agree since the line "(though a disembarkation cannot be performed as part of the re-deployment)" is repeated for the DT. IE they would have to repeat "cannot charge" in the DT case too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also this was true in 6th Edition then? (I have Scouts with a DT and always be called a cheater if i charged the embarked unit turn 1, so never did - usually making it by mistake)

Hollismason wrote:

I can't even think of a unit with out a little trickery due to deployment of forces being able to assault on the first turn.

I Deep Strike a Drop Pod next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I turbo-boost Eldar Jetbikes next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I roll really well for my Stormboyz, netting me a 30" threat range. I can now charge you turn one.

I jump 12" with any Jet or Jump Infantry and then roll a 12 for charge distance against something that you moved forward turn 1. I can now charge you turn 1.

There's a fair bit of stuff that can do it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

I can't even think of a unit with out a little trickery due to deployment of forces being able to assault on the first turn.

I Deep Strike a Drop Pod next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I turbo-boost Eldar Jetbikes next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I roll really well for my Stormboyz, netting me a 30" threat range. I can now charge you turn one.

I jump 12" with any Jet or Jump Infantry and then roll a 12 for charge distance against something that you moved forward turn 1. I can now charge you turn 1.

There's a fair bit of stuff that can do it.

Whenever a rule refers to ‘a turn’ it always means ‘player turn’ unless it specifically refers to a ‘game turn’.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

I can't even think of a unit with out a little trickery due to deployment of forces being able to assault on the first turn.

I Deep Strike a Drop Pod next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I turbo-boost Eldar Jetbikes next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I roll really well for my Stormboyz, netting me a 30" threat range. I can now charge you turn one.

I jump 12" with any Jet or Jump Infantry and then roll a 12 for charge distance against something that you moved forward turn 1. I can now charge you turn 1.

There's a fair bit of stuff that can do it.

I mean yeah there's plenty of situations that you can get a first turn charge in on, but getting it from a special deployment isn't really one of them. Almost all of them, Deep Strike, Outflank, an actual Scout Move etc.. Disallow.

RAW , it does look like you can do this though, maybe that's what they intended. To be fair it is a weird almost one of a kind situation unless you get somthing to give models scout that are also in a dedicated transport that also allows them to assault.

Also, wasn't this allowed in 6th edition as well? Or did the troops not give their transport scout like they do now.

I thought there was a phrase that you counted Units Embarked as a single unit, but there seems to be no such terminology so yeah looks like to me there is nothing that would disallow this.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

I can't even think of a unit with out a little trickery due to deployment of forces being able to assault on the first turn.

I Deep Strike a Drop Pod next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I turbo-boost Eldar Jetbikes next to your army turn one. You can now charge it.

I roll really well for my Stormboyz, netting me a 30" threat range. I can now charge you turn one.

I jump 12" with any Jet or Jump Infantry and then roll a 12 for charge distance against something that you moved forward turn 1. I can now charge you turn 1.

There's a fair bit of stuff that can do it.

I think he was referring to being able to charge anything inside his opponent's deployment zone 1st turn. Yes, your situations above would allow someone to charge turn 1. But in these cases, you are going to them in order for this to happen. (OK, stormboyz not so much, but that would take some really good rolling).

To me this issue is pretty darn clear. If anything the Infiltrate rule gives precedence to the Scouted embarked unit not being able to charge the first player turn:

"If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Infiltrate along with their Transport. A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." Why is that okay but a Scouting unit can? My Khorne Terminators don't get the love like White Scars Terminators? Bull-ogna.

Another instance of the designers not wanting to grant pre-game distance and a first player turn assault.

You people advocating that a Scouted Transport can unleash its embarked unit in the first player turn for an assault keep wanting a specific general statement that says the embarked unit Scouted. Where is the general statement that the embarked unit is NOT considered to Scouting?
It confers Scout to the Transport, but does not relieve the unit of the Scout rule. The unit IS redeploying, they are not in the same place as where they first deployed. The Transport is simply permitted to redeploy with the unit still inside. Where is this assumption that the unit is not inside, and therefore not redeploying coming from?

RAW it is not precise which is why we're arguing, but the RAI is so very strong and implicit with what is actually written.

All of you would-be first player turn Scout-chargers will be sorely disappointed in any competitive events.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, the unit inside the Transport is Infantry, and the Infantry are CLEARLY redeploying. Thus the Transport can only redeploy 6", not 12". If a Transport had Scout for some reason and no unit embarked, then it could Scout 12".

That is the point, as being very random or requiring bad tactical decisions by an opponent doesn't mean 'trickery' is involved whenever occurs.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also this was true in 6th Edition then? (I have Scouts with a DT and always be called a cheater if i charged the embarked unit turn 1, so never did - usually making it by mistake)

Although this is true, i have also always re-deployed my Dominion's Rhino 12", and not 6", as that rhino is clearly "other unit type". I did not think this was a point of contention for DT with Scout?

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
To me this issue is pretty darn clear. If anything the Infiltrate rule gives precedence to the Scouted embarked unit not being able to charge the first player turn:

"If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Infiltrate along with their Transport. A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn." Why is that okay but a Scouting unit can? My Khorne Terminators don't get the love like White Scars Terminators? Bull-ogna.

It's "bull-ogna" because the wording is completely different?

Seriously - they explicitly say under Infiltrate that the embarked unit Infiltrates along with their transport. The Scout rules are worded nothing like that. And somehow you just decide that they're the same?

You people advocating that a Scouted Transport can unleash its embarked unit in the first player turn for an assault keep wanting a specific general statement that says the embarked unit Scouted. Where is the general statement that the embarked unit is NOT considered to Scouting?

Because you aren't considered doing something until you do it.
Just like you don't move that Heavy weapon guy until you move him. Where's the general statement that he didn't move?

It confers Scout to the Transport, but does not relieve the unit of the Scout rule. The unit IS redeploying, they are not in the same place as where they first deployed. The Transport is simply permitted to redeploy with the unit still inside. Where is this assumption that the unit is not inside, and therefore not redeploying coming from?

You misunderstand the argument. The unit is demonstrably in the same place they deployed - inside the transport. That doesn't change, at all.

All of you would-be first player turn Scout-chargers will be sorely disappointed in any competitive events.

a) Irrelevant.
b) I think you'd be surprised.
c) I wonder why people keep saying things like this - it has no relevance to the discussion, doesn't support any particular viewpoint, and just serves to attempt to make someone feel like they're "better" for not following the written rules.

Furthermore, the unit inside the Transport is Infantry, and the Infantry are CLEARLY redeploying. Thus the Transport can only redeploy 6", not 12". If a Transport had Scout for some reason and no unit embarked, then it could Scout 12".

Except that's not what the actual rules say. And I'm curious - do you play that way? And did you play that way in 6th?

I'm almost positive that this was a 6th edition issue because I recall people saying Space Marine Scouts in a Cerebus could charge 1st turn or maybe I'm misremembering a previous edition.

The original poster is right according to the rules as written. The dissenters are right according the the rules as intended.
If Games Workshop were on their game they would amend the scout rule, but I think we all know they wont.
Nice little loophole, of coarse this IS a game and not the real world. I might really be in California or Texas, but I don't REALLY have to play you. I will Scout Redeploy to another table.

Captyn_Bob: "Dissenters" great term for people wanting to play the game as intended :-)

Yes, as the rules say no first turn charge, the intent is quite clear.

Naw wrote:

Captyn_Bob: "Dissenters" great term for people wanting to play the game as intended :-)

Yes, as the rules say no first turn charge, the intent is quite clear.

Disingenuous again...

No, the rules saying a unit using the rule may not charge. Good job the unit inside is not using the rule. Proven.

Please do not mislead others by misstating rules.

It's obvious that they never intended to make it so scouts inside a Transport could assault the first turn, otherwise they'd have just been like " Nah it's cool assault the first turn with scouts".

RAW , yes you can do it.

RAI , probably not everything that we've read and seen previously over the course of editions is to limit a first turn assault by you if you use special deployment rules.

If the transport has redeployed out of its deployment zone how is the squad inside allowed to deploy outside of deployment zone? If they didn't Infiltrate or Scout they are illegaly deployed. So no they can't assault.

jimbo1062 wrote:
If the transport has redeployed out of its deployment zone how is the squad inside allowed to deploy outside of deployment zone? If they didn't Infiltrate or Scout they are illegaly deployed. So no they can't assault.

The squad was deployed, they took no action. They have NOT used the Scout rule. If you claim otherwise, page and graph.

Youre maiking a "RAI" argument, mark it as such.

Hollis - only in 6th and 7th have we have prohibitions on using infiltrate or scout to assault first turn. In 7th this was extended to the entire first game turn.

They've made it so that only with a scouting transport, or with a dedicated assault vehicle transport, can you pull this off. They also could have "obviously" used the same wording as Infiltrate, which explicitly denies this from occurring, but deliberately chose not to do so. So your "obvious" argument is less so.

jimbo1062 wrote:
If the transport has redeployed out of its deployment zone how is the squad inside allowed to deploy outside of deployment zone? If they didn't Infiltrate or Scout they are illegaly deployed. So no they can't assault.

The squad deployed into the transport. Completely legal. Their deployment didn't change. Exactly as the rules are written and in violation of none of them.

It's not in violation of the rules at all, but I'd say it's probably a oversight. Who knows though maybe this very specific instance they allowed it.

The thing I'd say though is that the did specifically say " with a scout move , you cannot charge".

That's why I think RAI they probably did not intend it.

However you've been able to do it since 6th edition so who knows.

rigeld2 wrote:

jimbo1062 wrote:
If the transport has redeployed out of its deployment zone how is the squad inside allowed to deploy outside of deployment zone? If they didn't Infiltrate or Scout they are illegaly deployed. So no they can't assault.

The squad deployed into the transport. Completely legal. Their deployment didn't change. Exactly as the rules are written and in violation of none of them.

They are starting outside their deployment zone without have rules support to do so . i think thats what he is trying to say here .

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jimbo1062 wrote:
If the transport has redeployed out of its deployment zone how is the squad inside allowed to deploy outside of deployment zone? If they didn't Infiltrate or Scout they are illegaly deployed. So no they can't assault.

The squad deployed into the transport. Completely legal. Their deployment didn't change. Exactly as the rules are written and in violation of none of them.

They are starting outside their deployment zone without have rules support to do so . i think thats what he is trying to say here .

No, they're not. They deployed inside their DT.
The DT is starting outside of its deployment zone and has permission to.

edit:
DT deploys normally and doesn't scout. Vehicle moves forward 6", troops disembark 6". Troops moved 12". Troops only have a 6" move. According to many in this thread this is illegal.

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jimbo1062 wrote:
If the transport has redeployed out of its deployment zone how is the squad inside allowed to deploy outside of deployment zone? If they didn't Infiltrate or Scout they are illegaly deployed. So no they can't assault.

The squad deployed into the transport. Completely legal. Their deployment didn't change. Exactly as the rules are written and in violation of none of them.

They are starting outside their deployment zone without have rules support to do so . i think thats what he is trying to say here .

No, they're not. They deployed inside their DT.
The DT is starting outside of its deployment zone and has permission to.

edit:
DT deploys normally and doesn't scout. Vehicle moves forward 6", troops disembark 6". Troops moved 12". Troops only have a 6" move. According to many in this thread this is illegal.

yes dt has the permission to be outside the deployment zone , but does the unit have permission to be outside the deployment zone since they are not using the scout rule ?

They are not outside their deployment zone.
They're embarked in their DT.

Some new rules that should hopefully put an end to this debate:

The New Ork Supplement (Waaagh! Ghazghkull) has a Formation of Battlewagons that all have the Scout rule.

This Formation has the Following Special Rule:

Know Yer Limitz wrote:Infantry units that begin the game embarked upon a Battlewagon from this Formation cannot charge on the first turn if their Battlewagon made a Scout redeployment

This rule would not be needed if the Scout restriction applied to units inside a transport that made a Scout redeplyment.

Or it is a reminder.

GW adds pointless reminders all the time, such as with Spore Mines explosions (sentence caps the Strength at 10, but the highest achievable is 9). Another example would be Drop Pod Assault, which forbids charging the turn you arrive.

 Happyjew wrote:
Or it is a reminder.

GW adds pointless reminders all the time, such as with Spore Mines explosions (sentence caps the Strength at 10, but the highest achievable is 9). Another example would be Drop Pod Assault, which forbids charging the turn you arrive.

True there are often rules like that. But those are part of another rule, this is a complete Special Rule with no other function.
I've not seen a "reminder rule" that's a completely seperate rule it'self. I could be wrong.
Just thought it was worth mentioning.