Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No, I am intentionally (and in, I intend) on moving my skimmer 1" away from the enemy unit, If you wish to divine my intent in the matter. (which as repeatedly commented on, cannot be taken into account)

At no point is the skimmer in this scenario actually ending it's movement over top of the enemy unit. It is prevented from doing so by it's own rules; a fact which I've never disputed.

 Neorealist wrote:
No, I am intentionally (and in, I intend) on moving my skimmer 1" away from the enemy unit, If you wish to divine my intent in the matter. (which as repeatedly commented on, cannot be taken into account)

At no point is the skimmer in this scenario actually ending it's movement over top of the enemy unit. It is prevented from doing so by it's own rules; a fact which I've never disputed.

But the rule you are relying on only comes in to play when a skimmer is ending it's move on top of a unit.

If a Skimmer is not ending it's move on a unit (which the Skimmer rules forbid) then that rule does not come into play.

You argument is non-existent in the rules.

 Neorealist wrote:
No, I am intentionally (and in, I intend) on moving my skimmer 1" away from the enemy unit, If you wish to divine my intent in the matter. (which as repeatedly commented on, cannot be taken into account)

At no point is the skimmer in this scenario actually ending it's movement over top of the enemy unit. It is prevented from doing so by it's own rules; a fact which I've never disputed.

Again, what circumstance requires that you end your movement over that unit? You've failed so far to explain that - instead just saying that it's not relevant or ignoring the issue altogether.

Hardly. The skimmer 'would' end it's movement over top of the enemy unit if you followed just the movement rules and the first part of the skimmer movement rules. Yes. However the skimmer rules ask you to place it 1" away instead.

What I am saying is both that it is not illegal to move over the enemy unit 'and' not illegal to stop moving the model at it's maximum movement distance. However it is possible with the interaction of these two rules to put the skimmer in an position where it would end it's move illegally, if not for the 2nd skimmer movement rule.

What 'forces' the skimmer to stop moving over the enemy unit is it simply ran out of movement while over the enemy unit. It's more or less as simple as that.

 Neorealist wrote:

At no point is the skimmer in this scenario actually ending it's movement over top of the enemy unit.

Then how are you calling upon this rule:

BRB: "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:

What I am saying is both that it is not illegal to move over the enemy unit 'and' not illegal to stop moving the model at it's maximum movement distance. However it is possible with the interaction of these two rules to put the skimmer in an position where it would end it's move illegally, if not for the 2nd skimmer movement rule.

No, because there's another option. DON'T MOVE THE SKIMMER. Nothing is forcing you to move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:

What 'forces' the skimmer to stop moving over the enemy unit is it simply ran out of movement while over the enemy unit. It's more or less as simple as that.

You don't 'run out of movement'. You either move a distance or you don't. There's no 'while I was moving I ran out of gas' or something. You can move up to 12" but you are never forced to move the full distance.

You don't have to be forced to move the skimmer in order to move it. There is no 'rule' requiring you to intend on moving the skimmer to a location in which is it not over an enemy unit, just that it ends up that way.

I have a funny picture in my head of someone picking up their skimmer and slowly moving it across the board making 'vroom vroom' noises and stopping over an enemy model and saying "oh I ran out of distance to travel this turn... guess I'm forced to stop here"... "oh look I'm on a unit and must slide away."

 Neorealist wrote:
You don't have to be forced to move the skimmer in order to move it.

Correct but if a rule requires that the skimmer is forced to end its turn on a model then that implies that there is no legal move available. In this situation there is a legal move, which is to not move. Therefore the skimmer was not forced to end its move on top of a model as it could happily sit right where it was without getting little models under its feet.

There is no 'rule' requiring you to intend on moving the skimmer to a location in which is it not over an enemy unit, just that it ends up that way.

This doesn't even mean anything.

Think of it this way, my hammerhead can move 12" right? And there's a Leman Russ 11.8" away, facing me. With your rule I could intentionally move my Hammerhead on top of the Leman Russ, then move it the shortest distance to not be on the Leman Russ, which would place it behind the Russ, allowing me to put a Solid Shot straight into it's rear armour.

The vroom vroom noises are entirely optional. But encouraged.

Zimko wrote:
I have a funny picture in my head of someone picking up their skimmer and slowly moving it across the board making 'vroom vroom' noises and stopping over an enemy model and saying "oh I ran out of distance to travel this turn... guess I'm forced to stop here"... "oh look I'm on a unit and must slide away."

I had the same idea, with *someone* picking up the skimmer moving it on top of another model saying "Whoops, guess I must move farther!", covering the entire board in a single move with a broad smile on his face. Wanted to make a short comic about it, then realized that this thread is as much of a bait as it can be and that it isn't worth the time.

Its not to do with intent, rather capacity and awareness.

A Town Called Malus wrote: Correct but if a rule requires that the skimmer is forced to end its turn on a model then that implies that there is no legal move available..

Nope, it really does not imply that. It does make sense that you'd have to check if there was a legal move available, but such is not included in any of the relevant rules.

 Neorealist wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote: Correct but if a rule requires that the skimmer is forced to end its turn on a model then that implies that there is no legal move available..

Nope, it really does not imply that. It does make sense that you'd have to check if there was a legal move available, but such is not included in any of the relevant rules.

If there is another option that you can take then you are not forced to take the option that ends your move over a model. You choose to do so.

So when you chose to move the skimmer there, you were in fact forced to?

Interesting definition of "forced"

Yes you did choose to do so. With great deliberation and forethought, presumably. Whatever gave you the impression that you as a player had to be forced to place the model over top of an enemy unit rather than it being a conscious choice?

All that is required is that the model be forced to end it's move there normally (in this case because you've already moved it the maximum possible distance it can be moved this phase), not wether or not you've chosen to do so or random happenstance such as a magna claw interacting to cause such.

>> Voluntarily decide to do something
>> Dealing with consequences means you were "forced" to do the aforementioned

Legit!

So you chose to break this rule...

BRB:"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either."

 Sigvatr wrote:
>> Voluntarily decide to do something
>> Dealing with consequences means you were "forced" to do the aforementioned

Legit!

Guess everyone on trial for murder can say they were forced to do it

Zimko wrote:
So you chose to break this rule...

BRB:"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either."

No, because the skimmer is definitely 'not' ending it's move over top of the enemy models, it is ending it's move 1" away from said enemy models.

 Neorealist wrote:

Zimko wrote:
So you chose to break this rule...

BRB:"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either."

No, because the skimmer is definitely 'not' ending it's move over top of the enemy models, it is ending it's move 1" away from said enemy models.

If the skimmer isn't ending it's move over models then how did you enact this rule?

BRB: "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Because the skimmer would be forced to end it's move over top of the enemy unit, if not for the skimmer rules.

 Neorealist wrote:
Because the skimmer would be forced to end it's move over top of the enemy unit, if not for the skimmer rules.

No, you chose to end your movement there.
You haven't shown permission to move farther than 12".
You haven't shown permission to end your move on top of another unit (required by the sliding rule).

There's more, but let's start there.

 Neorealist wrote:
Because the skimmer would be forced to end it's move over top of the enemy unit, if not for the skimmer rules.

So the skimmer did end it's move there? Which is an illegal action.

If you can't end your move on a model then you can't enact a rule requiring that you end your move on a model without breaking a rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Because the skimmer would be forced to end it's move over top of the enemy unit, if not for the skimmer rules.

No, you chose to end your movement there.
You haven't shown permission to move farther than 12".
You haven't shown permission to end your move on top of another unit (required by the sliding rule).

There's more, but let's start there.

No. What you chose doesn't matter 'and' you chose to end your movement 1" away from the enemy unit. In either case you are incorrect in your first premise.
You have permission to move your model the minimum distance necessary to clear the enemy unit. This is permission to move the model more than the 12" you were allowed.
You do not have permission to end your move on top of the enemy unit. The sliding rule does not require you to have permission to end your movement there, in fact it only works because you do 'not' have permission to end your movement there.

 Neorealist wrote:
The sliding rule does not require you to have permission to end your movement there, in fact it only works because you do 'not' have permission to end your movement there.

The sliding rule requires the skimmer to end it's move there.
You do NOT have permission to end your move there.

Two simple facts that debase your entire argument. In order to enact the sliding rule the skimmer must end it's move over models. How this happens is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you have strict DENIAL to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is a simple sequence of events and rule triggers. You have permission to move your model... You are restricted by the distance and you are restricted from ending your move on models.

Acting within the confines of the above, you may move your skimmer.

Then after moving your skimmer, you check for triggers such as the sliding rule. The sliding rule requires that the skimmer ends it's move over models. If you followed all the restrictions of movement then this shouldn't happen.

So when you chose to break a rule, in order to force another rule to operate, you gained permission to break the first rule from....

Oh wait, you didn't.

Enough being baited, let this die.

Another possible scenario is you have permission to perform a tank shock, which is a special kind of movement. You perform it (following all the rules and restrictions) and your opponent chooses to death or glory. He gets lucky and immobilizes the skimmer.

Now that the skimmer's movement is complete you check for triggers. The sliding rules DOES trigger here because your skimmer is too close to models after ending it's move.

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Because the skimmer would be forced to end it's move over top of the enemy unit, if not for the skimmer rules.

No, you chose to end your movement there.
You haven't shown permission to move farther than 12".
You haven't shown permission to end your move on top of another unit (required by the sliding rule).

There's more, but let's start there.

No. What you chose doesn't matter 'and' you chose to end your movement 1" away from the enemy unit. In either case you are incorrect in your first premise.
You have permission to move your model the minimum distance necessary to clear the enemy unit. This is permission to move the model more than the 12" you were allowed.
You do not have permission to end your move on top of the enemy unit. The sliding rule does not require you to have permission to end your movement there, in fact it only works because you do 'not' have permission to end your movement there.

If you don't have permission to end your move there, how are you ending your move there? Since, you know, it's required by the sliding rule.

In the OPs scenario the movement rule is 'forcing' you to end your movement there. (well, it would be if not for that 2nd clause in the skimmer movement rules)

In OPs scenario, the GA is forced to stay still as it has no legal place to move to.

Check and mate.