Give it to me straight, what is the best codex?

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**ductvader**

morgoth wrote:
3. The Jink nerf is huge. For the same protection as in v6, a player has to decide to lose 66% of his firepower for the next turn instead of moving which he was going to do anyway.

It's actually for greater protection...its a 3+ with HF.

But, all you need to do for the same protection as in 6th, you just need to sit behind terrain and get the 4+ (HF) with your ignores cover gun.

The jink nerf didn't make serpents any less durable...it really just made them less bold. No more flying around and not caring about terrain.

EDIT: AND IT WORKS AGAINST ALPHASTRIKES NOW.

**morgoth**

Zagman wrote:

1. BeastStar is most definitely Eldar, the best way to run it was 2x Farseer with allied Baron and Beast Pack. DE primary was significantly weaker than eldar primary. Even SeerStar allies DE for the Baron. Highly Mobile Stars still have merit, they just don't win games by them selves anymore.
2. SeerStar is still most definitely alive and well. It wasn't about firepower or Witchfires, it was about being highly mobile, fearlless, nigh indestructable, and multisassaulting units with Hit and Run. It won't be the top list anymore, but it will still be viable.
3. Not quite true. In 6th you didn't get to Jink T1, 7th has buffed T1 Wave Serpent Survivability. In 6th, moving with Holofields gave you a 4+, now Jinking gives a 3+ with Holofields. a 4+ can also be achieve by normal LOS Cover and doesn't make Jink mandatory. If fact shifting behinds a ruins is an easy 3+ Cover with Holofields, and as the Serpent Shield Ignores cover is virtually to no detriment with the caveat being the Scatter and possibly Shuriken granting cover saves. That is if you don't grant yourself cover without obscuring your TLSL.
4. I believe this is exactly what I said.
5. Mostly true and almost exactly what I said.

Your order aligns almost perfectly with mine, where is the disagreement?

AV14 Spam will be in some niche builds, I doubt it will be widespread. Objective Secured AV14 for BA and Inquisition can be build around and is vaible. AV14 prominece actually hurts Necrons as the only thing they have to affect is is Guass on their Warriors which requires risking their OS Scoring as good Necron lists are Tesla. We won't see a return of the Monolith.
Psychic never left Buffing, Maledictions even in 6th weren't a mainstay for most lists. Now Psychic Buffing is still king, Invisibility, Fortune, Precience, Guide, Shrouding, Fortune, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, etc. Conjuration also has its uses and is definitely a tactic, maybe not something to build a list on, but can definitely aid lists in certain situations.
Vehicles got tougher, we won't see a shift back to assault for the meta. Although, Orks will likely bring a new assault element, but that is yet to be seen if it will be a competitive tactic.

No way...

1. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
2. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
3. It gave the option to have better T1 survivability at the cost of losing 66% of your firepower, and gave up a free 4+ out of cover for a 66% DPS reduction traded for a 3+ out of cover, while changing nothing to the in-cover game. I know which one I'd rather have, and it's not the 7th ed Jink
4. Absolutely not. You said Tau would remain competitive, I say that whatever kept them in the top-5 codex pool is now gone. Big drop. Not top dog anymore, probably not even top pack.
5. Absolutely not. Your conclusion is that those already competitive codexes got slightly better, when in fact they got a lot better.

This changes the conclusion a lot, and having Necron on top of Space Marine, and both on top of Eldar is a world of difference with your tiered approach that does not seem to take 6th ed stats and 7th ed changes into account.

There is absolutely no way Eldar who lost two of their victory combos and mobility OR firepower (the jink nerf) are going to keep their 50% win record against SM and Necron given both of those have been seriously buffed (and SM are easily the king of MSU).

That is unless Eldar have received some huge buff somewhere else of course

**jifel**

Single codex? Eldar are the best. There are several reasons why, listed above by other users. The only places Eldar suffer are against Flyer spam. Eldar can easily tailor to combat this, but their most TAC lists usually don't. Even then, normal Eldar lists can easily take out 1-2 flyers, it's just when there are 5-6+ that it becomes a huge problem.

However, I don't think it's relevant anymore to ask what the best codex is. Any army can ally with any other, and can essentially cover their weaknesses. There are now so many combinations possible, if you have the models, that I don't think you can possibly rate them all except by standalone books. All Tyranid armies aren't bad, but aren't great. You could ally in some Eldar jetbikes and Bright Lance warwalkers however, and suddenly they have mobile troops, as well as extremely durable troops. FMCs destroy flyers while Lances deal with Land Raiders, our biggest weakness. You can rank each codex, but the sheer logistics of ranking every possible army combination is now almost impossible.

**morgoth**

ductvader wrote:

The jink nerf didn't make serpents any less durable...it really just made them less bold. No more flying around and not caring about terrain.

Exactly, that's a nerf to mobility, which imo is a huge nerf in a strategy game.

Terrain cover can be maneuvered around, the new Jink will not be very useful if you use it too late, very detrimental if you use it too early and your opponent switches targets, compared to a shrouded for vehicles... it's just a big big nerf.

**WisdomLS**

Whilst I think that all armies are at least able to compete to a greater or lesser degree I have to go with the majority here (Morgoth excluded ;-) and say Eldar.

They excel at about mobility and firepower which they have in spades and which are the keys to victory in the modern game, they back that up with durability and the ever annoying Eldar shenanigans.

**Bigfashizzel**

I think Eldar, by itself, is slightly ahead of the pack, but I find that Imperium, Necrons, and Daemons are all almost the same.

Codex Inquisition will level out the Imperium fairly well, given that it allows you to take OS Land Raiders. I don't think that anyone is really prepared to deal with that. For ~700 points putting two of those in almost any game with some mediocre scoring units inside... I'm fairly confident that the Imperium will be fine.

Necrons, as stated elsewhere, might be stronger than it was in 6th. I have a hard time against Necrons, but I think some OS Land Raiders will help crack that nut.

Eldar are definitely difficult to play against, but I think the changes to the other armies have brought them into line.

**Murdius Maximus**

I tend to agree with the Eldar being top, but Necrons are a VERY close second. CCB, x3 Annihilation Barge, x2 Ghost Ark, x2 Night Scythes and a mob of warriors will give any army fits. Those arks won't be getting off objectives very easily, and they are objective secured and capable of putting out 30 shots of guass a turn. Annihilation Barges with Tesla/tesla will handle just about anything. Night Scythes and CCB speak for themselves.

**DarknessEternal**

zachwho wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Codex Imperium is the best. I'm not sure there are any valid arguments against it.

there is a valid argument, codex eldar. i don't think they have any glaring weaknesses.

You think Codex Imperium has weaknesses? Name three.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kisada II wrote:

Psychic defense - Eldar

Snuh? Are you clear on how psychic defense works?

Grey Knights get 1 warp charge per 5 men, Aegis, and reinforced Aegis.

**Hollismason**

I think Ghost Arks got the best deal out of it, the jink doesn't really apply to the passengers plus it's open topped.

**RJCarrot**

morgoth wrote:
There is no data available for 7th yet, but some things are very clear:
Jink is worse now

Maybe for Eldar, but not for everyone. As a RW player, having a 3+ cover standing still in the open on Skilled Riders is pretty sweet, expecially with our weapons being twin linked and then still allowing a charge.

Just because the mechanic has gotten worse for your army doesn't mean the mechanic is broken as a whole.

**Hollismason**

I see Necrons and Chaos Daemons really fighting it out for 2nd place, it'll be interesting to see the new armies as several armies are very nerfed.

Specifically Seerstar , no more multiple casting of psychic powers, so even if you get fortune, shutting it down is super important so you can just throw all your dice at it.

That's a huge deal. Of course they got Invisibility but there's a chance they wont get it.

edit:

It also really depends on the tourney you play in whether they are in fact allowing a 2nd CAD in lieu of an Ally. I dunno BAO and NOVA are coming up those will be interesting.

Spyderstar got a little bit more power but also less so, in that you can't bounce around anymore but also you can crap out Scarabsthat can score.

Tesla Bikes got better too wtih a 4+ jink.

**Drogga**

Its true the jink changes affected Eldar a lot but they haven't fallen to the point of many other armies... they still have very strong firepower that can only be contested by a few armies...top tier in my mind however is the Imperium...they have lists filled with MSU and can adapt to many opponents

**Ailaros**

FenrisianStuart21 wrote:I want to know what the best codex is right now.

No joke, top of the line codex.

If you wanna throw in the best list, do that as well.

Why?

Certainly it's not to make the strongest army, as strongest armies are blends of various units as allies, or are unbound. Certainly it's not a timing thing as by the time you get your army assembled and painted, a bunch of new stuff will have come out and likely will have changed the meta. Certainly it's not just about winning games, because 40k is a dice game, not something you can seriously compete over.

Perhaps if you can clarify what exactly you're looking for, you'll get something resembling accurate opinions on your specific needs.

**Zagman**

morgoth wrote:

No way...

1. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
2. Not competitive anymore, participated in v6 victory stats for Eldar.
3. It gave the option to have better T1 survivability at the cost of losing 66% of your firepower, and gave up a free 4+ out of cover for a 66% DPS reduction traded for a 3+ out of cover, while changing nothing to the in-cover game. I know which one I'd rather have, and it's not the 7th ed Jink
4. Absolutely not. You said Tau would remain competitive, I say that whatever kept them in the top-5 codex pool is now gone. Big drop. Not top dog anymore, probably not even top pack.
5. Absolutely not. Your conclusion is that those already competitive codexes got slightly better, when in fact they got a lot better.

This changes the conclusion a lot, and having Necron on top of Space Marine, and both on top of Eldar is a world of difference with your tiered approach that does not seem to take 6th ed stats and 7th ed changes into account.

There is absolutely no way Eldar who lost two of their victory combos and mobility OR firepower (the jink nerf) are going to keep their 50% win record against SM and Necron given both of those have been seriously buffed (and SM are easily the king of MSU).

That is unless Eldar have received some huge buff somewhere else of course

Its kind of hard to believe that you think Eldar are going to fall out of the top spot, out of the Top 2.

As to that advantage, how about Objective Secured Wave Serpents? Ever heard of them? Now they can hold and deny Objectives better than anything else in the game, and they are almost as mobile as the second best option, Eldar Jetbikes....

Did you miss me placing Tau in Teir2? And declare those as lose teirs as it is too early to determine exactly where each will fall.

Did you miss me putting Eldar, SM, and Necron in Teir 1?

Have you played Eldar in 7th Edition yet? They are still a 1st class Codex, no doubt about it. Objective Secured Wave Serpents are amazing.

Though I can see how you could come to the conclusion that Wave Serpents now suck, if its from the limited viewpoint of them as only Gunboats.

**SHUPPET**

morgoth wrote:

I will gladly trade Objective Secured for the Jink nerf, any day, every day, all day, whatever.
Because my strategy is to table you, not to contest gimmicky objectives in a ring around the rosy match.
To me, 40K is a strategy game, and these ridiculous objectives that will let a fleeing enemy win a match when being all but massacred don't make sense.

I bet you do. This is because you are used to having the firepower to ignore how the game is actually played by most other armies. But once your skillset as well as your opponent's start to develop, you will realize that not every game will be won like this and some will come down to objectives. As I said, it will be rare, your army is quite OP, but against some of the other slightly less OP armies the NEW ability to suddenly drastically outscore everything without it affecting your gameplay up till turn 4 or 5 when you make the decision that you need to score, at the "cost" of a few twin-linked snapshots for a more reliable jink that guards immobile and camping Wave Serpents and against alpha strike, oh and turns their Fire-Warrior-save from last edition into a Power-Armor-save in 7th, it literally makes Eldar a league better than it was last edition. Very little can table Eldar, and the ones that can Will rarely achieve it. Now on the offchance the game has not played Eldars way, they have all the tools to win through scoring. 7th made Eldar gods.

morgoth wrote:

According to the only statistics available (http://www.torrentoffire.com/4789/6th-edition-retrospective-reign-of-the-xenos), 6th edition had 5 armies at the top, tied between them (SM, Eldar, Tau, Necron, Chaos Daemons).

Of these armies, the Eldar were jink nerfed, the Tau were jink nerfed and lost the Buffmander, AV14 got buffed (SM,Necron), and some other changes I'll let players of the respective armies comment on.

Statistics will surely speak again, but right now there is no reason to believe Eldar will be in the lead.

Jink affected SM and Crons more than Tau lol
AV14 vehicles were buffed no more than Wave Serpents.
Riptide is still the most OP model in the game and Tau has plenty of other ways to support it with those buffman points. They saw a very very slight power level drop and still will be a top dog well above Crons, worst case scenario for Tau is that Crons have been brought up to their slightly lowered level, although even this is slightly generous imo

morgoth wrote:

Keep in mind that most of the players citing Eldar as strongest are playing some of the weaker codexes which do take a pounding from Eldar more than from other leading codexes.

This of course has no bearing on Tournaments where mostly top 5 codexes compete.

Oh ok so everyone without one of the top 5 Tourney armies should probably just not have an opinion amirite?
For starters, there is no reason that all of the weaker codexes should lose any harder to Eldar than to any of the other top dogs. That just proves they are OP lol.

"people from almost every other army in the game only say that my army is the most Overpowered because it beats their army everytime easier than every other codex can"
What other criteria is there to go off lol. What straw are you going to clutch to say that this means they actually aren't OP lool.

**Kisada II**

DarknessEternal wrote:
zachwho wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Codex Imperium is the best. I'm not sure there are any valid arguments against it.

there is a valid argument, codex eldar. i don't think they have any glaring weaknesses.

You think Codex Imperium has weaknesses? Name three.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kisada II wrote:

Psychic defense - Eldar

Snuh? Are you clear on how psychic defense works?

Grey Knights get 1 warp charge per 5 men, Aegis, and reinforced Aegis.

3 weaknesses that hurt Codex Imperium:
1) Eldar Titan
2) Wave serpents
3) Wraith Knights

For psychic defense maybe grey knights have more dice if they max out there dice, but Aegis and reinforced Aegis sucks compared to having higher level. Also I'm not even sure on grey knights having an effective list with more dice as I've yet to see them accomplish much with those dice other than having a lot of them. Eldar with 30-40 dice is actually quite scary since they by and large have no fear of perils by throwing more dice and it's really easy to get that many dice since they can take 5 level 2 psykers in a single HQ slot. Not to mention that Eldar, since they don't fear perils can run summoning or santic pretty freely.

**SHUPPET**

Morgoth do you ever wonder why you are the only person in the room ever saying Eldar ISN'T the #1 codex?

And have you ever considered the POSSIBILITY that you may be being just a TAD bit biased towards your own army? Or even, IMMENSELY so?

**morgoth**

Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.

**some bloke**

I go against a jetseer council on an unfortunately regular basis. they typically wind up with a 2+ rerollable save, 4+ rerollable invuln, and wreck everything they assault on the fastest bikes in the game. on the plus side, the games are always very short, so i can get a game in for fun - I ask if he has the seer council deathstar, he says "tehy're not a deathstar because they might not roll the powers they want", and I concede and go play someone fun.

eldar are unfortunately obscenely good if you really try to make them. they can run a balanced list, and fun games can be had. but too often you'll find yourself against 2 wraithknights, 5 waveserpents and a seer council on jetbikes, and if you can't reliably kill off those serpents by turn 2 then you'll either lose on objectives or lost by tabling.

**morgoth**

some bloke wrote:
I go against a jetseer council on an unfortunately regular basis. they typically wind up with a 2+ rerollable save, 4+ rerollable invuln, and wreck everything they assault on the fastest bikes in the game. on the plus side, the games are always very short, so i can get a game in for fun - I ask if he has the seer council deathstar, he says "tehy're not a deathstar because they might not roll the powers they want", and I concede and go play someone fun.

eldar are unfortunately obscenely good if you really try to make them. they can run a balanced list, and fun games can be had. but too often you'll find yourself against 2 wraithknights, 5 waveserpents and a seer council on jetbikes, and if you can't reliably kill off those serpents by turn 2 then you'll either lose on objectives or lost by tabling.

If it's just a Jetseer council, you can tarpit it, if it's not it's a Seerstar and it takes up about 700 points.

2WK, 5WS and a SeerStar is past 2000 points.

2WK 6WS is a tournament build
Seerstar 4WS is a tournament build

If you're playing soft lists against hard lists, you're very likely to lose no matter the codex at play.

Incidentally, the WS and the Seerstar have been nerfed, where vehicles were buffed and MC were not, so if anything, it should be easier to win now

If you want obscenely good in v7, try Necrons. They were top-5 last edition, tied with Tau/Eldar/SM/Daemons.
This edition is 90% buff to them and a very slight loss with the Jink nerf that may even be compensated by the Jink change.

**zachwho**

morgoth wrote:
Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.

what logical reasons have you gave that the eldar codex isn't slightly ahead of the other books? you have given biased opinions, that's not logic.

no one is saying eldar are unbeatable, that would be illogical.

just saying they're slightly ahead of the curve, because they have the tools to do anything, and do it well or great, is logical.

because they do.

I'm happy for you, you have a strong good codex, with lots of really good tools. try to help the community by being happy about that and enlighten new players with positive helpful information, instead of trying to smoke and mirrors them with biased opinions on self perceived nerfs.

**SHUPPET**

I think he was saying that he is the one that refuses to logic hence why he doesn't care about the opinions shown his way because intelligent people would have stopped trying

**ImotekhTheStormlord**

Eldar
Daemons
Necrons

**morgoth**

zachwho wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.

what logical reasons have you gave that the eldar codex isn't slightly ahead of the other books?

I gave you the only available statistics of v6, and the changes from v6 to v7 that made the Eldar worse.

Necron, SM = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much improved in v7, Necron least affected by shooting skimmers jink nerf
Tau = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much lost in v7, because of shooting skimmers jink nerf, lost O'vesa, Buffmander
Eldar = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much lost in v7, because of shooting skimmers jink nerf, weaker Psychic stars
Daemons = 50% against top 5 in v6 + much lost in v7 because of weaker Psychic stars

Unless you know of other changes that favored the Eldar, they will be losing against Necron and SM on a very consistent basis, and have lost a great deal of what made them awesome in v6.
WS, which were the good filler of every tournament list, have been seriously nerfed with the new Jink, making them ok-filler, that in itself is going to break a lot of previously highly competitive builds.

**zachwho**

well i do agree with you on one thing, only a fool would think reason could have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.

**SHUPPET**

This is what I meant when I said:

SHUPPET wrote:
Ignore morgoth please, his gimmick is going to every thread and turning it into a 4 page argument where he refuses to concede that Eldar are ridiculously OP.

morgoth is just the destroyer of threads involving tactical discussion. I'd like to say it was limited to threads discussing Eldar, but I saw him turn even a Riptide thread and another discussing friendly list building, into his one sided campaign that Wave Serpents aren't OP and Eldar-stars suck now and other such jazz

**jasper76**

I played my first game of 7th last night, Necron vs. Eldar.
I was able to win by` 2 points. It was clear to me that when the new rules hit the table, the new Jink really is a palpable and significant nerf for the Eldar.

And I can attest the Ghost Ark now being objective-secured, new chariot/CCB rules, and new vehicle damage chart are all significant buffs for Necrons.

Not sure yet if 7th changes the "powe ranking" or anything, because this was my very 1st game with 7th, but I was able to eek out a heretofore rare W vs. an Eldar army.

**zachwho**

I'm glad to know your only game of 7th gave you clear and tested evidence that eldar were or weren't nerfed....

**jasper76**

zachwho wrote:
I'm glad to know your only game of 7th gave you clear and tested evidence that eldar were or weren't nerfed....

Since my sarcasm detector went up a couple notches, I'll defend myself a little bit in that it wasn't like "Wow...jink might hurt Eldar." It was more like "Round after round after round, I am able to force my Eldar opponent into deciding to take a Jink save and force Snapshots, or decide to take a wound or a hull point."

So alot of the fire from units I am used to getting absolutely pummeled by were now shooting at me with snapshots only, for multiple rounds, basically at my will.

**Sasori**

Jink affected SM and Crons more than Tau lol
AV14 vehicles were buffed no more than Wave Serpents.
Riptide is still the most OP model in the game and Tau has plenty of other ways to support it with those buffman points. They saw a very very slight power level drop and still will be a top dog well above Crons, worst case scenario for Tau is that Crons have been brought up to their slightly lowered level, although even this is slightly generous

Shuppet,

The biggest nerf to Tau isn't in their firepower. In that respect you are absolutely right, the lost little when it comes to the edition change.

However, they lost out big time when it comes to the new Objective secured rules. Unless they start spending points on things like Devilifish, which they wil have to to compete, which lowers their ability to buy the more expensive tools. Maelstrom missions are especially bad for Tau, as they are for any static gunlines. They loose the mobility game which is even more important in 7th than it was in 6th. This where the edge comes into Necrons, with their superior vehicles and board control, in addition to the numerous other buffs they received.

For a good example, check out the BAO Missions. That's a major tournament, and I can guarantee just by looking at the missions, that Gunlines are going to have an issue.

I really feel that Static gunlines are not going to be doing that well this edition, since mobility is so key. It's one of the reasons why Serpents are considered better than before, especially in Maelstrom missions.