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Orktavius wrote:

 marv335 wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Mob rule is better now then when the last codex was written,

How exactly is Mob Rule better now?
This is the third variation, and by far the worst.
we went from units falling back being absorbed into other units (mobbing up), to fearless while we had numbers to taking a few shots then either killing more boys or standing around looking stupid.

I think I'll play one of my other armies for a while, and let the Boys wait for the next codex.

Because before fearless caused me to lose a model for every point I lost combat by meaning my units evaporated when fighting something halfway decent in close combat instead of slowing beating them down.

Oh..Sorry...wait...I had a 6+ t-shirt save

As opposed to now where the worst I worry about are d6 s4 hits instead of taking 10 extra wounds. Is it better than 6th/7th fearless? no, but Ork mobs weren't meant to be that unstoppable.

I might be ok with the mob rule changes if you only had to take d6 s4 hits after losing combat or taking 25% casualties (I would probably still not be happ but meh) but when a vehicle explodes losing half to the explosion and d6 more str 4 hits if you get pinned and another d6 s4 hits for losing 25% and any time you encounter something with fear or a power that makes you take a moral test it seems a bit much to me.

 happygolucky wrote:

Mob Rule: while I did not have many units of boys as my points sank into the Stompa I did get into combat with enemy units, and it really takes its toll, I mean it really hurt to be in assault with Hormagaunts, (yes you did hear that right), and honestly once I get more games under my belt I really do think this rule will impact upon the Orks in a big negative way imo..

Does it turn into a good thing when against better armies though ?

Because the bugs ... well. I mean. Unless they get a new dex, they're not really the most dangerous out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not waiting for a new dex... well. not for my army anyway.

But if the Necron dex is not a straight nerf to mostly everything Necron, I think I'll be a bit pissed too.

I'd like Orks to be competitive so I would have a reason to bother asking a friend for his Ork army (lots of conversion and paint to do there...). Orks are fun, they should be playable, I hope the new dex made them better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's a ranking for 6th ed that says that Orks were a lot worse than CSM.

I'm not surprised since CSM are all-rounders, SM DNA there.

Do Orks player feel like the new dex is on par with the previous one, better or worse ?

For the CSM player arguing that CSM is worse: http://www.torrentoffire.com/4789/6th-edition-retrospective-reign-of-the-xenos

That's 6th ed, but unless the 7th changed immensely favored Orks, you'd still be above

In terms of the Mob Rule, I have to say I think it was one of the more absurd things our Codex had. Fearless was a bit insane at times, but it had its major downsides. Such as unable to flee from things we could not kill, nor could we go to ground when we really wish we could have. Am I saying the new Mob Rule is better? Maybe not better, but it helps keep some of the silliness down I suppose. The fact that my Boyz could tarpit that hard was kind of nuts at times. Do I like taking more wounds than is needed due to an explosion + pinning test? Nope. I don't, but there are ways to mitigate the damage.

I think people are getting wrapped up on this a little too much. With our Mob sizes, we don't often have to take moral tests unless people really hammer one big blob over and over and over. Mob rule more or less does hurt our Trukk Boyz a bit, which does sadden me a little. But, to be honest, our Trukks are often gun bait to begin with. What do you expect? When the Trukk pops, its not often those boys will be around past that turn anyway. *shrug*

I'll wait until my book is in my hand to really play test it for myself. Until then, I'll stop looking at it from a theory, because its then we make rash judgement about things we haven't even had the chance to thoroughly play test. If it ends up being a truly bad thing, I can admit it with the rest of the Ork players. Then again, its not often I'm up in arms over things either. I have fun with the game. Its what this is. A game. Its rare I won to begin with, so I don't get uppity. I just enjoy blowing things up, and I actually enjoy it when people splat my Boyz, because its funny. When they brought big AP weapons and all they can use em on is Boyz, it makes me laugh...waste of points for them they could have used elsewhere.

morgoth wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

Mob Rule: while I did not have many units of boys as my points sank into the Stompa I did get into combat with enemy units, and it really takes its toll, I mean it really hurt to be in assault with Hormagaunts, (yes you did hear that right), and honestly once I get more games under my belt I really do think this rule will impact upon the Orks in a big negative way imo..

Does it turn into a good thing when against better armies though ?

Because the bugs ... well. I mean. Unless they get a new dex, they're not really the most dangerous out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not waiting for a new dex... well. not for my army anyway.

But if the Necron dex is not a straight nerf to mostly everything Necron, I think I'll be a bit pissed too.

I'd like Orks to be competitive so I would have a reason to bother asking a friend for his Ork army (lots of conversion and paint to do there...). Orks are fun, they should be playable, I hope the new dex made them better.

I have only had one game with the new codex and will be making more BatReps along with the one underway I am making of my day 1 launch.

But yeah I agree, especially for warbosses they needed better armour or at least a 3+ Sv that they can only take, as my Warboss and Boyz did just fall over to a pile of Hormagaunts, in turn against other armies they will get hurt a lot more imo..

But like I say I personally don't like this rule but again I need more games under my belt before I can make a proper judgement imo..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
First off I would say they are certainly not as bad as CSM they are in between the bugs and the CSM, as feel reading up on it the can defiantly hold their own, however thy do suffer the blandness of those codex's, nothing that give that special sauce to the beef so to say..

Secondly I'm glad the Stompa is not OP as some quick fix, as al it would mean is that my Stompa would get refused games and tbh, its great way for avoiding mob rule table..

As a CSM player I would say that the CSM Codex is far worse off than Orks imo..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's so close to being decent but the Mob Rule kills it.

There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.

I honestly feel as if the no author credit is just to hide the authors name so they don't get anymore grief from the community imo..

How would you rank CSM?

Beneath Orks and on Par with the bugs, simply because the more flavoursome options I like (such as Warp Talons) are just too expensive and are too easy to remove and that goes for a lot of the codex imo..

Know what a lot of units need?

"Looted armor" - Costs 2 pts per model, gives a 5+ armor save.

Right in between the typical Ork T-shirt and the 'Eavy Armor, it's a pretty solid upgrade that some weapons (Bolters, cough) ignore, many don't, and gives you a reliable lifespan when either in a vehicle explosion or in melee.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

This says it all really. About the same price as kromlech versions - but with a ton more parts. looking at the sprues, you get a complete KFF so you can, for instance, make a regular KFF mek, or put on one a bike etc, for pennies. And at our local store, which discounts, they'll be around 20 per cent cheaper than kromlech.

It does, really, although I'd approach it from opposite angle: GW selling something mass-produced in plastic and tens of thousands of units, for about the same price as you can get hand-cast resin piece.

GW can beat Kromlech in price, but I'd be more interested in companies like Mantic, who are interested in producing suitable 'replacements' in plastic.

For example, the Marauder booster including 3 MAN-style gits is £10 - the quality is a bit lower, but it definitely gives GW a run for the money at 1/4th of the price:

GW is just burning through one codex after another in a futile attempt to raise sales and hide their financial difficulties. It's no surprise the codex blitz started right before their stock plummeted.

It's also no surprise that when the only reason for these codex's is to delay the inevitable and squeeze customers, they end up being low quality and nonsensical.

And what if those faster releases were there to improve balance faster and keep codexes more in line with the latest editions to avoid having a two edition gap between the edition a codex was intended for, and the edition during which it will be refreshed ?
Because it seems that gap has historically been causing a lot of trouble.

morgoth wrote:
And what if those faster releases were there to improve balance faster and keep codexes more in line with the latest editions to avoid having a two edition gap between the edition a codex was intended for, and the edition during which it will be refreshed ?
Because it seems that gap has historically been causing a lot of trouble.

If that really were the motivation behind the accelerated Codex releases, they could just update all the army lists at once without the accompanying model releases. But, as GW themselves say, they are not a rules company. They only really update rules to promote new model releases.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

If that really were the motivation behind the accelerated Codex releases, they could just update all the army lists at once without the accompanying model releases. But, as GW themselves say, they are not a rules company. They only really update rules to promote new model releases.

I would love a plastic refresh of the Eldar Aspect Warriors.

Designers did a good job imo. The codex feels old-school. Fun and not-competitive.

Played a game yesterday against orks's using a pretty competitive chaos list. There is nothing wrong with
The new codex if you ask me. Some good value units and physkers powers are sweet!

 prowla wrote:
...I'd be more interested in companies like Mantic, who are interested in producing suitable 'replacements' in plastic.

For example, the Marauder booster including 3 MAN-style gits is £10 - the quality is a bit lower, but it definitely gives GW a run for the money at 1/4th of the price:

AS John Ruskin said, "there is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."

You will spend £40 or £80 of your own time at minimum wage painting those nobs. And the Mantic ones will still look crap at the end, even with your £20 saving.

For clarity, I'm not suggesting that the Manz are perfect, a bargain, or that everyone should like them. I'm merely stating they're reasonable vfm, and that needing to "vent" because they're such a ripoff is a massive over-reaction.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 prowla wrote:
...I'd be more interested in companies like Mantic, who are interested in producing suitable 'replacements' in plastic.

For example, the Marauder booster including 3 MAN-style gits is £10 - the quality is a bit lower, but it definitely gives GW a run for the money at 1/4th of the price:

AS John Ruskin said, "there is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."

You will spend £40 or £80 of your own time at minimum wage painting those nobs. And the Mantic ones will still look crap at the end, even with your £20 saving.

For clarity, I'm not suggesting that the Manz are perfect, a bargain, or that everyone should like them. I'm merely stating they're reasonable vfm, and that needing to "vent" because they're such a ripoff is a massive over-reaction.

Wow, I kinda never expected to see a comment like that on Dakka..

I agree with you, although I find the MAN box' price atrocious for 3 models. Same awful level as the Centurions. Many companies make much cheaper models/bits but at the cost of quality and while some people often feel that the potential money saved offsets that, I still think that paying a bit more for better looking miniature that's going to be used in a.. yepp, miniature wargame is more favourable to me given the fact that the game is almost all about miniatures on the table. Of course I wouldn't ridicule anyone who likes those Mantic minis more than GW ones as it's his personal opinion that he's entitled to, but I would disagree with him wholeheartedly. Overall Mantic orcs look nothing like 40k ones and that ruins them for me, although that might be partially caused by the fact that Mantic to me was always a big rip-off cheaper-version copycat leech company that preyed on those that don't mind ugly miniatures as long as they save up some money. But that's just my opinion. :-)

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


AS John Ruskin said, "there is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."

You will spend £40 or £80 of your own time at minimum wage painting those nobs. And the Mantic ones will still look crap at the end, even with your £20 saving.

For clarity, I'm not suggesting that the Manz are perfect, a bargain, or that everyone should like them. I'm merely stating they're reasonable vfm, and that needing to "vent" because they're such a ripoff is a massive over-reaction.

You are correct, sir, that you have to think where your priorities lie. People who are interested in the cheaper alternatives are more likely those who want to field MANz by the numbers. However, I'm more interested in the fact that the said price point exists for a smaller manufacturer. If a small company like Mantic can produce plastic at that price, sooner or later someone comes along and challenges GW both in price AND quality.

I've said it before, that GW's ever rising prices and hit/miss quality are a gift for small companies, creating a rather large opening for them to operate in. GW could probably immediately weed half of the small companies off the markets, if they priced their stuff aggressively. It of course might be that they keep their fingers on the pulse, milk the crowd now, and start to drop prices immediately when they feel other companies are really threatening their sales.

I'm a bit disappointed that Big Meks can't have burnas any more, mostly because 2 of my meks has them.
On the SAG mek it can be removed, but the KFF mek will be sitting on the bench until 2020 (next ork dex).
I'm not alone with this though, the White dwarf article about the new junior mek mentions that he has a burna on his back,
way to support WYSIWYG GW

While the codex will allow us to build powerful list, most of the new ones seems to be playable only in a single, less of "keep the enemy guessing" way. Maybe It's just me, but I like it when my opponent can't figure out exactly how I'm going to play my army and how to counter it the moment I start pulling out models.

Oh, and another WTF on mobrule, cybork-bodies, no-moving-around-slots and even more crowded HQ and HS slots.

I do like what they did with tankbustas, time to build some more and a transport for them

You still have lots of options.

-Greentide - weak as before, fnp won't help you when the concept itself doesn't work since 6 ed. Can still be run with sucksess vs a number of lists.
-Battlewagon spam - more expensive but bw are more durable, boyz are weaker with new mob rule though.
-Walker spam with morkanaught - don't know yet but sure it's gona need unboud or double foc to do a thing.
-Fast unit spam - bikers are way better, buggies and koptas have reasonable prices, don't know bout stormboyz yet but those guyz are sure capable of 2-d turn charge. Need solid blos to work though.
-Mixed bag of everything - has gotten better with units that are used in this type of lists recieving a buff - manz, tankbustas...wierdboyz?.. and support units like big gunz are buffed. Even commandoes with snikrot are somewhat playable.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I thought Endurance was only the model, and not the unit?

Targets a "single friendly unit" and says "all models in the target unit gain the Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain (4+) and Relentless special rules."

Combine with Ministorum Priest's rerolling to hit in the first round of combat and rerolling armor saves, and it makes a unit of Marines disgusting. But until they FAQ out the ability to take three Priests and three Psykers in addition to a standard HQ in freaking allied detachments, we get to keep seeing shenanigans like that with Imperial armies.