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Is it possible to buy the nine powers for a Libby to give a total of ten rolls on the new psychic tables?

Looking at the FAQ you are asked to ignore the powers on page 25, however the option to buy the powers is on page 85. However is there an instruction to replace all known powers with rule book powers?

djn wrote:
Is it possible to buy the nine powers for a Libby to give a total of ten rolls on the new psychic tables?

Alright, so you spend a load of extra points on those powers, and then...what? You can't cast them, because they don't exist. And you generate powers based on your PML, NOT on how many powers you know. (What you're claiming doesn't even make sense.)
So even if you could do what you're suggesting, it wouldn't garner you anything except wasted points.

djn wrote:
Is it possible to buy the nine powers for a Libby to give a total of ten rolls on the new psychic tables?

Looking at the FAQ you are asked to ignore the powers on page 25, however the option to buy the powers is on page 85. However is there an instruction to replace all known powers with rule book powers?

No, the GK codex powers dont exist anymore

Ok, thanks for the input Elric. However you may need to read page 22 of the rulebook as it clearly states that PML is used to determine the number of powers known if the psyker's entry doesn't state how many powers they have.

I'm not actually claiming anything, I've asked two questions and hopefully I'll get some well reasoned and informed answers from others.

Even if they could buy the codex powers, that doesnt give them extra power rolls, they only get to roll on as many powers as their mastery level, the only way they know more than the mastery level in powers is if they take all of their powers from one table and get Psychic Focus.

But again the GK codex powers dont exist per the FAQ

djn wrote:
Is it possible to buy the nine powers for a Libby to give a total of ten rolls on the new psychic tables?

Looking at the FAQ you are asked to ignore the powers on page 25, however the option to buy the powers is on page 85. However is there an instruction to replace all known powers with rule book powers?

Yes, you can buy those nine powers. But they have no rules per the FAQ and thus don't do anything.

The FAQ tells you that Librarians generate their powers from certain tables. The BRB tells you to use the PML to determine how many powers you roll for. The GK codex powers are never taken into account and therefore don't do anything. You ignore them.

djn wrote:
Ok, thanks for the input Elric. However you may need to read page 22 of the rulebook as it clearly states that PML is used to determine the number of powers known if the psyker's entry doesn't state how many powers they have.

I'm not actually claiming anything, I've asked two questions and hopefully I'll get some well reasoned and informed answers from others.

Except the Mastery level of the librarian is in its entry... therefore the amount of powers the model has does not actually matter.

I'll break this down;

1.

A psyker's entry usually states how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level.

p22 BRB.

2. The GK FAQ States that a librarian generates their powers from Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy.

3. The GK FAQ also states that the Psychic Powers section on page 85 of the librarian's entry should be ignored. This removes the reference to hammerhand. However it doesn't say anything about the psychic powers listed under Options.

My question given the above rules is whether the below interpretation is correct;

If I purchase nine psychic powers for 45 points, the librarian now knows nine powers as hammerhand has to be ignored under point 3. However the powers the librarian knows must be drawn from the BRB psychic powers stated in point 2 above. The first sentence of point 1 is fulfilled as the librarian has a stated number of powers. Therefore the mastery level is not relevant for the number of powers known/generated.

djn wrote:
I'll break this down;

1.

A psyker's entry usually states how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level.

p22 BRB.

2. The GK FAQ States that a librarian generates their powers from Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy.

3. The GK FAQ also states that the Psychic Powers section on page 85 of the librarian's entry should be ignored. This removes the reference to hammerhand. However it doesn't say anything about the psychic powers listed under Options.

My question given the above rules is whether the below interpretation is correct;

If I purchase nine psychic powers for 45 points, the librarian now knows nine powers as hammerhand has to be ignored under point 3. However the powers the librarian knows must be drawn from the BRB psychic powers stated in point 2 above. The first sentence of point 1 is fulfilled as the librarian has a stated number of powers. Therefore the mastery level is not relevant for the number of powers known/generated.

The underlined is incorrect.
The Librarian's entry doesn't state a number, so you go with ML. The fact that you bought 9 powers doesn't change the Psyker's entry.

rigeld2 wrote:

The underlined is incorrect.
The Librarian's entry doesn't state a number, so you go with ML. The fact that you bought 9 powers doesn't change the Psyker's entry.

That seems a reasonable argument. Are there any units which do state a number of psychic powers known?

My counterpoint would be p81 of the GK codex. This details unit entries and Options, this states you add the listed upgrades to the unit. Therefore when I purchase the nine powers it adds these to the Psyker''s unit entry.

djn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The underlined is incorrect.
The Librarian's entry doesn't state a number, so you go with ML. The fact that you bought 9 powers doesn't change the Psyker's entry.

That seems a reasonable argument. Are there any units which do state a number of psychic powers known?

My counterpoint would be p81 of the GK codex. This details unit entries and Options, this states you add the listed upgrades to the unit. Therefore when I purchase the nine powers it adds these to the Psyker''s unit entry.

But adding said powers doesn't increase the PML it merely provides an alternative 'spell'. it does not allow you to cast another power...therefore you do not generate another roll.

So let's explore this a tiny bit further.
(According to djn) BRB says

A psyker's entry usually states how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level.

If I buy 9 powers for my Librarian, his entry then states that he has 9 powers. Since this is the case, I do not look to his Mastery Level to see how many powers he knows.

However, you still have no permission to trade out those powers for rolls on the BRB. So now you've spent 45pts, AND you have no powers to cast!

Also, interestingly, many Psykers will NOT know a number of powers "equal" to their PML, because of Focus and Force. So that's just an outright lie in the BRB. My PML1 SM Librarian knows 3 powers, which is not equal to 1.

Ulric, you're not trading the powers out per se. The Libby knows 9 powers and these must be generated from the tables stated in the GK FAQ.

Please can someone refute this logic systematically;

djn wrote:
I'll break this down;

1.

A psyker's entry usually states how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level.

p22 BRB.

2. The GK FAQ States that a librarian generates their powers from Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy.

3. The GK FAQ also states that the Psychic Powers section on page 85 of the librarian's entry should be ignored. This removes the reference to hammerhand. However it doesn't say anything about the psychic powers listed under Options.

My question given the above rules is whether the below interpretation is correct;

If I purchase nine psychic powers for 45 points, the librarian now knows nine powers as hammerhand has to be ignored under point 3. However the powers the librarian knows must be drawn from the BRB psychic powers stated in point 2 above. The first sentence of point 1 is fulfilled as the librarian has a stated number of powers. Therefore the mastery level is not relevant for the number of powers known/generated.

They're not generated, they're purchased from the table.

And there's still no rule allowing you to then exchange all of these on a 1:1 ratio for Discipline powers.

djn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The underlined is incorrect.
The Librarian's entry doesn't state a number, so you go with ML. The fact that you bought 9 powers doesn't change the Psyker's entry.

That seems a reasonable argument. Are there any units which do state a number of psychic powers known?

I'm not familiar with all Codexes so I can't say. There aren't any in the Tyranid codex though.

My counterpoint would be p81 of the GK codex. This details unit entries and Options, this states you add the listed upgrades to the unit. Therefore when I purchase the nine powers it adds these to the Psyker''s unit entry.

Adding to the unit != adding to the unit entry. The unit entry is on page 20whatever. Your army list has the unit entry + options.

rigeld2 wrote:

djn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The underlined is incorrect.
The Librarian's entry doesn't state a number, so you go with ML. The fact that you bought 9 powers doesn't change the Psyker's entry.

That seems a reasonable argument. Are there any units which do state a number of psychic powers known?

I'm not familiar with all Codexes so I can't say. There aren't any in the Tyranid codex though.

My counterpoint would be p81 of the GK codex. This details unit entries and Options, this states you add the listed upgrades to the unit. Therefore when I purchase the nine powers it adds these to the Psyker''s unit entry.

Adding to the unit != adding to the unit entry. The unit entry is on page 20whatever. Your army list has the unit entry + options.

I'm not familiar with all codices either, the only example I can think of is Belakor who has all Telepathy powers, not sure what PML he is though, possibly three.

Regarding your point about adding to the unit entry, I believe you are incorrect;

each unit entry contains....Options

p81 of the GK codex prior to the army list entries, which include the option to choose psychic powers.

Page 21 - the Army List refers back to these entries.
Page 24 - Librarian Unit Entry - no rules for number of powers.

The unit entry in the army list is demonstrably different (it doesn't contain the options section) from the unit entry on page 24.

The Army List Unit Entry is therefore not what the BRB is referring to - it's referring to the entry on page 24 (which remember, doesn't include Options). I say it's not referring to the Army List Unit Entry because all it says is Unit Entry... and since the ALUE has additional information, for it to refer to that one it'd have to say so.

djn wrote:
Ulric, you're not trading the powers out per se. The Libby knows 9 powers and these must be generated from the tables stated in the GK FAQ.

Please can someone refute this logic systematically;

djn wrote:
I'll break this down;

1.

A psyker's entry usually states how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level.

p22 BRB.

2. The GK FAQ States that a librarian generates their powers from Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy.

3. The GK FAQ also states that the Psychic Powers section on page 85 of the librarian's entry should be ignored. This removes the reference to hammerhand. However it doesn't say anything about the psychic powers listed under Options.

My question given the above rules is whether the below interpretation is correct;

If I purchase nine psychic powers for 45 points, the librarian now knows nine powers as hammerhand has to be ignored under point 3. However the powers the librarian knows must be drawn from the BRB psychic powers stated in point 2 above. The first sentence of point 1 is fulfilled as the librarian has a stated number of powers. Therefore the mastery level is not relevant for the number of powers known/generated.

He doesnt know 9 powers though as you cant purchase those powers per the FAQ, Libby only rolls on tables stated and per the FAQ

Page 82-95 Psychic Powers - Please ignore the Psychic Powers sections in this Army List and instead refer to the notes above to determine which psychic powers units in this Army List have.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 21 - the Army List refers back to these entries.
Page 24 - Librarian Unit Entry - no rules for number of powers.

The unit entry in the army list is demonstrably different (it doesn't contain the options section) from the unit entry on page 24.

The Army List Unit Entry is therefore not what the BRB is referring to - it's referring to the entry on page 24 (which remember, doesn't include Options). I say it's not referring to the Army List Unit Entry because all it says is Unit Entry... and since the ALUE has additional information, for it to refer to that one it'd have to say so.

Page 21 isn't explicit about the the entries being 'unit entries'. Only on page 81 is 'unit entry' specifically stated, this then goes on to detail options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:


He doesnt know 9 powers though as you cant purchase those powers per the FAQ, Libby only rolls on tables stated and per the FAQ

Page 82-95 Psychic Powers - Please ignore the Psychic Powers sections in this Army List and instead refer to the notes above to determine which psychic powers units in this Army List have.

Are you interpreting that to mean the Options section too? Nowhere is options being limited mentioned though.

If the rules are telling you to ignore the powers listed in the section, and telling you that the Librarian has to roll on X tables.

Not can roll on, Has to roll on; then where is your permission to buy powers you're told to ignore?

Page 25 Librarian Psychic Powers - Please ignore these psychic powers. Grey Knight Librarians generate psychic powers from the Daemonology (Sanctic), Divination, Pyromancy, Telekenisis, and Telepathy disciplines instead.

There is no permission to buy those upgrades anymore, as you're told to ignore the powers you can buy, and told HAVE TO roll on stated tables.

djn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 21 - the Army List refers back to these entries.
Page 24 - Librarian Unit Entry - no rules for number of powers.

The unit entry in the army list is demonstrably different (it doesn't contain the options section) from the unit entry on page 24.

The Army List Unit Entry is therefore not what the BRB is referring to - it's referring to the entry on page 24 (which remember, doesn't include Options). I say it's not referring to the Army List Unit Entry because all it says is Unit Entry... and since the ALUE has additional information, for it to refer to that one it'd have to say so.

Page 21 isn't explicit about the the entries being 'unit entries'. Only on page 81 is 'unit entry' specifically stated, this then goes on to detail options.

Really?

Each entry describes the unit ...

But yeah, that's totally not a unit entry...

The army list (pages 81-95) refers back to these entries

The army list consists of ... Unit entries (plus options). So saying these aren't unit entries is simply incorrect.

Do you intend to purchase non-existent powers in order to be able to generate more powers than your Mastery Level would normally allow from the BRB disciplines?

I don't think you can purchase those powers anymore.
Even if you could, those powers no longer exist, so you can't use them.
There's no indication that you could just swap out those invalid powers for rolls to generate from the BRB disciplines.

You seen to be making several tenuous logical leaps to reach a conclusion that is clearly not how the librarian is supposed to work.

Even if you can prove that the RAW don't specifically prevent you from doing this, it doesn't mean you should.

You'll find yourself having to justify such silliness to every opponent you come up against.

You - "The RAW doesn't prevent me from knowing all of telepathy AND divination."

No-one, ever - "Yes, that seems totally legit!"

RAW - Yes, at least as far as I can tell.

RAI - No, it's fairly obvious they intended the GK specific powers to be completely removed and Librarians generate powers based on their PML.

HIWPI - If you wanted an extra power or two in a friendly game, I probably wouldn't mind you paying the cost and rolling on the table. If you wanted to generate 9 powers, then no.

DoW

Thanks for the input. Given the general response and despite (imo) no RAW justification for not being able to go down the nine power route I won't be gaming the system in this way!

Incidentally I have played with a GK Libby in 7th once and used the PML to generate the powers as I did with Coteaz.

... Despite the RAW evidence shown, there's no RAW justification for not being able to?

Um. Okay. Well done?

rigeld2 wrote:
... Despite the RAW evidence shown, there's no RAW justification for not being able to?

Um. Okay. Well done?

lol, thanks.

I qualified my statement with imo, which I do believe I am entitled to? Just as you are entitled to respond with sarcasm laced posts

Although re-reading the GK codex there is an explicit reference to the Army of Titan entries being comprised of unit entries, so I do need to concede that point to you rigeld2. However I could argue that the Unit Entry is compromised of two parts; the Army of Titan and the Army List. Neither of which are explicitly referred in the BRB for generating physic powers, therefore it could be either, both or none of them which is the official 'Unit Entry'.

One is a unit entry, one is a unit entry (which is identical to the first one, with options). They're both official, but since number of powers isn't described in the army list (it'd normally be under special rules which while listed in the army list, aren't defined) the "Army of Titan" area is what's being referred to.

And that's just one RAW reason.

Unit entry blah blah number of powers blah blah No.

Full Stop.

FAQ says you ignore those powers, they don't exist. Tear out the page, color it with sharpie, whatever you have to do. You cannot take/buy/purchase powers that do not exist. You cannot swap book powers with ones that do not exist. You should look at that page and see a blank sheet.