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The current rule for Jink requires that a player decide before rolls to hit are made whether or not the target is going to Jink.

Is there anything in the book that allows a player to opt to Jink for units that are not the target but could be hit by a large blast? For example, if a knight Errant targets Skimmer A (who will Jink) but Skimmer B is so close that a large blast could easily hit both... can Skimmer B opt to Jink even though it was not the primary target?

No, there isn't. Skimmer B gets to eat the shot.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, there isn't. Skimmer B gets to eat the shot.

I believe this is definitely RAW correct.

I think it was not thought out though and might be FAQ'd. Thats opinion though. They would just have to change it to "when hit, but before wounds are rolled", or "any unit that can jink may do so before the current "to hit" dice are rolled. If a unit does not elect to jink, it may not do so until the next attackers unit starts its shooting."

The first would slightly buff jink as you wouldnt be tempted to jink shots that missed.

It's never come up so far in a game I've played in.

Technically, according to this line of thinking, if you target an infantry unit NEXT to a skimmer, the skimmer couldn't Jink either. (Since they were never selected as the target of the attack.)

Blast weapons don't roll To Hit rolls, do they? So you could never Jink one anyway, if we're going strict RAW?

I think the far more reasonable way to approach it is to allow the person to declare Jink on units that weren't the original target when it becomes apparent that they are going to get hit. Then again, I have a Jink heavy army, so my opinion is far from objective on this one.

RAW is pretty clear on the issue. As Rigeld2 said, a unit may only choose to jink if it's declared as a target.

The argument that you may not jink against blast weapons (at all) because they do not roll to hit is somewhat interesting, but essentially academic; I don't think anyone would argue in favour of that situation. I suppose you could claim it either way because you are both always and never "after declaring a target but before rolling to hit" if you never roll to hit. A superposition of jink, if you will.

HIWPI - A unit may choose to jink if it is declared as a target, but any additional hits caused to non-targeted units cannot be used to initiate a jink. Tactical blast template placement against skimmers is evidently the new black.

DoW

You absolutley can jink against Blast, as you are told to jink when targetted. You are still targeted, even by Barrage etc.

Beam weapons will be the ones causing more issues then scattering blasts.

As to the people that say its not fair to not be able to jink, sit back and relise you can now jink while immobilised, jink without moving (so can jink first player turn if going second), and jink is now a flat 4+, the benefits to Jink far outweigh the few times you are not able to jink like you did before.

BRB: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn. "

A Jink may be declared against ANY targeting shooting attack.
It MUST be made before To Hit rolls, this limitation applies only when there are To Hit rolls.

Beam weapons ? like which weapons ? Can't find a reference right now.
Considering the Intention behind the Jink changes, which is making it Intentional AND a choice between shooting/survival, unintended hits, like scattering blasts, may not be Jinkable.
Beam Weapons if they even exist would be RAI to count as targeting every unit in the path of the beam I think, RAW ... I can't find a rule for a beam weapon.

A Skimmer hit by a scattering blast does not get to Jink, it was not targeted. That may very well be RAI.

Please don't discuss Jink outside of the posts dedicated to it.

morgoth wrote:

Beam Weapons if they even exist would be RAI to count as targeting every unit in the path of the beam I think, RAW ... I can't find a rule for a beam weapon.

I believe the beam weapon most used is the Necron Doom Scythe's weapon. I think it is S10 AP1 or 2 and the way it is fired does not require a target. You pick a point on the ground and a direction for the beam to travel then roll to see how far the beam travels. Any model under the line is hit.

If there's no way to Jink without first being targeted then I guess you can't Jink against such weapons that don't have targets.

morgoth wrote:

Please don't discuss Jink outside of the posts dedicated to it.

what?

MarkyMark wrote:
As to the people that say its not fair to not be able to jink, sit back and relise you can now jink while immobilised, jink without moving (so can jink first player turn if going second), and jink is now a flat 4+, the benefits to Jink far outweigh the few times you are not able to jink like you did before.

That's what I meant when saying don't discuss Jink in this topic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Codex - Necrons: "Death ray: To fire the death ray, nominate a point on
the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then
nominate a second point within 3D6” of the first. Then, draw
a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or
enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to
the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the
vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase,
it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray."

There is no targeting indeed, so you can't Jink.

Beam weapons are the necron death-ray and psychic witchfire. they simply pick a point (the firer, unless it's the death ray), pick another and join the two to create a line, all units on the line suffer hits equal to the number of models in their unit under the line. the general sensible thing with the death ray is to assume that if the first point is on a vehicle it is targeted, but the rest of it is random range (3D6" I think) so it's unfair to see what's hit before jinking is declared, and unfair to jink then not even get hit. silly necrons with their awkward weapons.

edit: Dang, ninja'd.

 some bloke wrote:
Beam weapons are the necron death-ray and psychic witchfire. they simply pick a point (the firer, unless it's the death ray), pick another and join the two to create a line, all units on the line suffer hits equal to the number of models in their unit under the line. the general sensible thing with the death ray is to assume that if the first point is on a vehicle it is targeted, but the rest of it is random range (3D6" I think) so it's unfair to see what's hit before jinking is declared, and unfair to jink then not even get hit. silly necrons with their awkward weapons.

edit: Dang, ninja'd.

Which makes me think that as Witchfires are considered shooting attacks, you can probably Jink them... have to check the wording.

Witchfires are treated as shooting attacks and most of them declare a target.

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Where is that clarified in the BRB ?

 Leth wrote:

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Incorrect. Beam rules are very specific and explicitely tell you to not target a unit, but a point on the battlefield.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Incorrect. Beam rules are very specific and explicitely tell you to not target a unit, but a point on the battlefield.

As above the only target is a point, it then auto hits everything under the line, therefore you are not targetted so do not get a chance to jink. As mentioned its the death ray and specially molten beam, bolt of change and lash of despair (iirc) that will be good against anything that relies on jink.

Morgoth, it was more of a open statement rather then a reply to you or anyone else.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Incorrect. Beam rules are very specific and explicitely tell you to not target a unit, but a point on the battlefield.

And is the death ray a beam psychic shooting attack? If no then it still follows all the normal rules for shooting which requires that you declare a target before selecting weapons. Now it does not actually have to hit the target as its own shooting rules take over after that but to shoot a weapon in the shooting phase requires that you declare a target before you even select a weapon.

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Incorrect. Beam rules are very specific and explicitely tell you to not target a unit, but a point on the battlefield.

And is the death ray a beam psychic shooting attack? If no then it still follows all the normal rules for shooting which requires that you declare a target before selecting weapons. Now it does not actually have to hit the target as its own shooting rules take over after that but to shoot a weapon in the shooting phase requires that you declare a target before you even select a weapon.

And the necron codex specifies you target a point, not a unit.
Since the codex overrides the rulebook...

Or heck - declare the target as that unit way over there that has nothing to do with anything and then Death Ray. Oops, you missed your target. Darn shame.

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Incorrect. Beam rules are very specific and explicitely tell you to not target a unit, but a point on the battlefield.

And is the death ray a beam psychic shooting attack? If no then it still follows all the normal rules for shooting which requires that you declare a target before selecting weapons. Now it does not actually have to hit the target as its own shooting rules take over after that but to shoot a weapon in the shooting phase requires that you declare a target before you even select a weapon.

The beam does indeed declare a target, the point on the battlefield, as pointed out in the weapon description.

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Incorrect. Beam rules are very specific and explicitely tell you to not target a unit, but a point on the battlefield.

And is the death ray a beam psychic shooting attack? If no then it still follows all the normal rules for shooting which requires that you declare a target before selecting weapons. Now it does not actually have to hit the target as its own shooting rules take over after that but to shoot a weapon in the shooting phase requires that you declare a target before you even select a weapon.

Incorrect.

Nothing says you have to declare a target for beam psychic attacks. And even if you did, there is no obligation to not state a random unit and fire the psychic at another one.

BRB: "Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power."

BRB: "Unlike firing a shooting weapon though, a Psyker can manifest several different witchfire powers during the same phase (assuming he has enough Warp Charge) and each can target a different unit if you so choose."

BRB: "To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power’s range and trace a line (about 1mm thick) between the chosen point and the centre of the Psyker’s base – "

There is no need to target any unit.

morgoth wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Death Ray and line attacks like it dont require you target a unit, however to even fire a shooting attack requires that you declare a target, so even if it is not who you are going to hit with the death ray you need to declare something as a legal target.

Incorrect. Beam rules are very specific and explicitely tell you to not target a unit, but a point on the battlefield.

And is the death ray a beam psychic shooting attack? If no then it still follows all the normal rules for shooting which requires that you declare a target before selecting weapons. Now it does not actually have to hit the target as its own shooting rules take over after that but to shoot a weapon in the shooting phase requires that you declare a target before you even select a weapon.

Incorrect.

Nothing says you have to declare a target for beam psychic attacks. And even if you did, there is no obligation to not state a random unit and fire the psychic at another one.

BRB: "Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power."

BRB: "Unlike firing a shooting weapon though, a Psyker can manifest several different witchfire powers during the same phase (assuming he has enough Warp Charge) and each can target a different unit if you so choose."

BRB: "To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power’s range and trace a line (about 1mm thick) between the chosen point and the centre of the Psyker’s base – "

There is no need to target any unit.

Correct that is for a Beam Psychic Shooting attack of which as far as I know the death ray is not.

If you wouldn't mind please explaining to me how you get to the "select a weapon" stage in shooting without selecting a target.

Now I am not saying that you have to try and hit the unit with the death ray, but you have to have something declared as a legal target. Also the tesla destructor can only be fired at something that the death ray hit that turn so that is something to keep in mind as well.

Target = point on the battlefield. Explicitely stated in the rules.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Target = point on the battlefield. Explicitely stated in the rules.

And how do you get to the select a weapon stage without having to declare a target for the unit itself?

Edit: The page you are looking for is 30.

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Target = point on the battlefield. Explicitely stated in the rules.

And how do you get to the select a weapon stage without having to declare a target for the unit itself?

Edit: The page you are looking for is 30.

I think you misunderstand.

Witchfire is NOT a shooting attack even if there is one dumb line in the BRB that says "Witchfire powers are shooting attacks", it's followed by many sentences that clearly distinguish Witchfire from shooting attacks and clarify Witchfire as being SIMILAR to and not a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:


Or heck - declare the target as that unit way over there that has nothing to do with anything and then Death Ray. Oops, you missed your target. Darn shame.

That looks like fun. If I have 2 juicy "targets" for my death-ray line, one of them is a skimmer so I declare the skimmer as my target, opponent elects to jink, so I put the line somewhere else and kill other stuff and force his skimmer to fire snap shots. With a line starting 12" away and a potential range of 18", anything within 30" of the Doom Scythe could potentially be hit.

I like this better than the no jink opinion.

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Target = point on the battlefield. Explicitely stated in the rules.

And how do you get to the select a weapon stage without having to declare a target for the unit itself?

Edit: The page you are looking for is 30.

The Death Ray doesn't follow normal shooting rules at all. There's explicitly no declaration of a target, and it must be fired before the other gun the Doom Scythe has.

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Target = point on the battlefield. Explicitely stated in the rules.

And how do you get to the select a weapon stage without having to declare a target for the unit itself?

Edit: The page you are looking for is 30.

The (Focused) Death Ray does not follow the shooting rules on p. 30. Its shooting rules are explicitely listed in its rules.

Read the rules. This is the THIRD time you argue about it without having read the rules for it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Target = point on the battlefield. Explicitely stated in the rules.

And how do you get to the select a weapon stage without having to declare a target for the unit itself?

Edit: The page you are looking for is 30.

The (Focused) Death Ray does not follow the shooting rules on p. 30. Its shooting rules are explicitely listed in its rules.

Read the rules. This is the THIRD time you argue about it without having read the rules for it.

Ummm, where does it say it ignores the main rulebooks shooting rules.

It says "To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range"

If you read the order of operations on page 30 it says

"Step 1. Select a unit"
"Step 2. Select a target" - You are selecting a target for the UNIT firing at this point, not necessarily any particular weapon
"Step 3. Select a weapon"

You do not even get to the deathrays rules until step 3. Nowhere does it state that it ignores regular shooting restrictions. YOU are the one that is not listening.

So here is order of operations according to the rules.

Step 1. Select a unit that is firing
Step 2. Select a target for the unit
Step 3. Select to fire the death ray
Using Death rays special rules to fire it.

 Leth wrote:


Ummm, where does it say it ignores the main rulebooks shooting rules.

Right there:

It says "To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range"

Be my guest.

I definitely see Leth's point. To fire you have to select a target. So just pick some other random target and then fire the death ray wherever you want.