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Hi all, I'm one of the many who is confused about battle forged and unbound lists and detachments/formations.

I just picked up the new Ork codex, and there's an Ork Warband formation, plus an Ork Horde detachment.

I'm just a casual player and I want to use a variety of my ork units. This will likely involve more than three heavy choices, for example. So I'm either looking to use multiple detachments or an Unbound list so I can cram enough things into there. First though, I would like some help so I know what I can field.

If I use a battle forged list, I know I can use the Ork Horde detachment.
If I use a battle forged list, can I use the Ork Warband formation?
If I use an unbound list, can I use the Ork Horde detachment?
If I use an unbound list, can I use the Ork Warband formation?

Thanks

Wuffell wrote:
Hi all, I'm one of the many who is confused about battle forged and unbound lists and detachments/formations.

I just picked up the new Ork codex, and there's an Ork Warband formation, plus an Ork Horde detachment.

I'm just a casual player and I want to use a variety of my ork units. This will likely involve more than three heavy choices, for example. So I'm either looking to use multiple detachments or an Unbound list so I can cram enough things into there. First though, I would like some help so I know what I can field.

If I use a battle forged list, I know I can use the Ork Horde detachment.
If I use a battle forged list, can I use the Ork Warband formation?
If I use an unbound list, can I use the Ork Horde detachment?
If I use an unbound list, can I use the Ork Warband formation?

Thanks

Yes, you can use the Ork Warband formation in a battle forged list.

It's just like special detachment but can also be your primary detachment.
If you unbound a ork horde detachment you don't get the command benefits
If you unbound the warband formation you can't use the command traits.

So:

Yes
No
No


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But if you use the formation, you could use a standard combined arms detatchment of 1 HQ and 2 Troops minimum and since the looted wagon is a dataslate it doesn't count as a heavy choice slot so it can be taken in a battle forge list if you have 3 heavy slots taken up all ready

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Yes, you can use the Ork Warband formation in a battle forged list.

It's just like special detachment but can also be your primary detachment.
If you unbound a ork horde detachment you don't get the command benefits
If you unbound the warband formation you can't use the command traits.

So:

Yes
No
No


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But if you use the formation, you could use a standard combined arms detatchment of 1 HQ and 2 Troops minimum and since the looted wagon is a dataslate it doesn't count as a heavy choice slot so it can be taken in a battle forge list if you have 3 heavy slots taken up all ready

Thanks for the reply. I think I'm even more confused though. I think part of the confusion is because I loaned my rulebook to a friend for the weekend.

I thought a formation could be used in an unbound list. And I thought an unbound list let me choose the warlord, and I would still get command benefits.

Pretty sure the key difference here is in "formations" and "Detachments".

a formation is added to the army, so you would take a combined arms formation and a green tide formation, and only the combined arms formation would have objective secured troops.

Detachments are sub-sections and you can take any detachments you like in a combined arms formation, so for example you can take a pirmary detachment and 2 allied detachments in a combined arms formation.

so in a battleforged army, you can take an Ork Horde Detachment as part of the combined arms formation and it will benefit from objective secured troops and rerolling the warlord trait. alongside the combine arms formation you can take an Ork Warband Formation, but the troops will not have objective secured and if the warlord is in this formation he cannot reroll his warlord trait (unless the formation says he can).

I'm not clued up on unbound but the guy at the local GW tells me that it's for children. a kid buys (spelt "whines to his parents for") the models he likes, and rather than make them care for list-building or balance GW has decided to let them play with whatever, so long as they keep "buying" things.

It's also been adopted by spammers, WAAC daemon spawners and, very rarely, people who want to run a fluffy game involving an imperial guard convoy being attacked by ork kommandos, or a space marine armoured column attacking a chaos alter populated solely by sorcerors. the latter one is the only one I'd accept a game against.

Wuffell wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
Yes, you can use the Ork Warband formation in a battle forged list.

It's just like special detachment but can also be your primary detachment.
If you unbound a ork horde detachment you don't get the command benefits
If you unbound the warband formation you can't use the command traits.

So:

Yes
No
No


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But if you use the formation, you could use a standard combined arms detatchment of 1 HQ and 2 Troops minimum and since the looted wagon is a dataslate it doesn't count as a heavy choice slot so it can be taken in a battle forge list if you have 3 heavy slots taken up all ready

Thanks for the reply. I think I'm even more confused though. I think part of the confusion is because I loaned my rulebook to a friend for the weekend.

I thought a formation could be used in an unbound list. And I thought an unbound list let me choose the warlord, and I would still get command benefits.

This is from the new rule book
Page 117
"If you use an unbound army, choose a warlord, every model that has the same faction as your warlord is considered to be part of that detatchment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an unbound army, these models are not bound by any detachment restrictions and don't receive command benefits"

Great, thanks for the replies, it's a bit clearer now!

Formations are a special type of detachment that has specific models that you must use, but they can be used with either battleforged or unbound and still get the command benefits of the formation

So for your three hypotheticals, you can do all 3, but you only get benefits from 1 and 3

 some bloke wrote:
Pretty sure the key difference here is in "formations" and "Detachments".

a formation is added to the army, so you would take a combined arms formation and a green tide formation, and only the combined arms formation would have objective secured troops.

Detachments are sub-sections and you can take any detachments you like in a combined arms formation, so for example you can take a pirmary detachment and 2 allied detachments in a combined arms formation.

so in a battleforged army, you can take an Ork Horde Detachment as part of the combined arms formation and it will benefit from objective secured troops and rerolling the warlord trait. alongside the combine arms formation you can take an Ork Warband Formation, but the troops will not have objective secured and if the warlord is in this formation he cannot reroll his warlord trait (unless the formation says he can).

I'm not clued up on unbound but the guy at the local GW tells me that it's for children. a kid buys (spelt "whines to his parents for") the models he likes, and rather than make them care for list-building or balance GW has decided to let them play with whatever, so long as they keep "buying" things.

It's also been adopted by spammers, WAAC daemon spawners and, very rarely, people who want to run a fluffy game involving an imperial guard convoy being attacked by ork kommandos, or a space marine armoured column attacking a chaos alter populated solely by sorcerors. the latter one is the only one I'd accept a game against.

Here is my main question off of this answer. I want to use the Ork Horde Detachment as essentially my main battle-forged army. Am I able to just use that detachment and gain it's "boss of the waaagh" and "The Greenskin Hordes" special rules in addition to objective secured? Or do I have to take the Ork Horde Detachment in addition to a Combined Arms detachment in order to make that work (So in that scenario I would compulsory have to take the 1HQ 3Troops from the Ork Horde Detachment in addition to the 1HQ 2 Troops from CA detachment?)

I guess essentially what I am asking is can I use the Ork Horde Detachment as my basic FOC (I dont really want nor need another detachment) and still gain the benefits and special rules from it in addition to Objective Secured?

EldarExarch wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
Pretty sure the key difference here is in "formations" and "Detachments".

a formation is added to the army, so you would take a combined arms formation and a green tide formation, and only the combined arms formation would have objective secured troops.

Detachments are sub-sections and you can take any detachments you like in a combined arms formation, so for example you can take a pirmary detachment and 2 allied detachments in a combined arms formation.

so in a battleforged army, you can take an Ork Horde Detachment as part of the combined arms formation and it will benefit from objective secured troops and rerolling the warlord trait. alongside the combine arms formation you can take an Ork Warband Formation, but the troops will not have objective secured and if the warlord is in this formation he cannot reroll his warlord trait (unless the formation says he can).

I'm not clued up on unbound but the guy at the local GW tells me that it's for children. a kid buys (spelt "whines to his parents for") the models he likes, and rather than make them care for list-building or balance GW has decided to let them play with whatever, so long as they keep "buying" things.

It's also been adopted by spammers, WAAC daemon spawners and, very rarely, people who want to run a fluffy game involving an imperial guard convoy being attacked by ork kommandos, or a space marine armoured column attacking a chaos alter populated solely by sorcerors. the latter one is the only one I'd accept a game against.

Here is my main question off of this answer. I want to use the Ork Horde Detachment as essentially my main battle-forged army. Am I able to just use that detachment and gain it's "boss of the waaagh" and "The Greenskin Hordes" special rules in addition to objective secured? Or do I have to take the Ork Horde Detachment in addition to a Combined Arms detachment in order to make that work (So in that scenario I would compulsory have to take the 1HQ 3Troops from the Ork Horde Detachment in addition to the 1HQ 2 Troops from CA detachment?)

I guess essentially what I am asking is can I use the Ork Horde Detachment as my basic FOC (I dont really want nor need another detachment) and still gain the benefits and special rules from it in addition to Objective Secured?

Nope, only the units in the CAD detachment will get objective secured

Well that is unfortunate.

Battle Forged has *nothing* to do with Objective Secured.

Combined Arms, Allied, and Skyblight detachments are the only way to get Objective Secured units.

You do not have to take a CAD in a battleforged list.

You can take the Ork Horde formation as a detachment in your battle forged or unbound list. If in battle forged, you can make it your primary detachment. (still no OS units)

coredump wrote:
Battle Forged has *nothing* to do with Objective Secured.

Combined Arms, Allied, and Skyblight detachments are the only way to get Objective Secured units.

You do not have to take a CAD in a battleforged list.

You can take the Ork Horde formation as a detachment in your battle forged or unbound list. If in battle forged, you can make it your primary detachment. (still no OS units)

QFE!

All weekend long I found myself having discussions with people who argued A.) The Ork Warband is a Formation, not a detachment, so it cannot be primary in a Battle Forged army (UNTRUE) and B.) By taking the Ork Horde Detachment, they get the Ork Horde Detachment Command Benefits and they get Objective Secured as the standard "Battle-Forged" Command Benefit. (Also, UNTRUE)

Indeed, the rules go like this:

1) Are you Battle-Forged?
Yes - you have Detachments and Formations, your Command Benefits work
No - you are playing Unbound, no Command Benefits

2) What detachments have you got?
Combined Arms Detachment - Command Benefits (A) including Objective Secured
Allied Detachment - Command Benefits (B)
Ork Horde Detachment - Command Benefits (C)
Ork Warband Formation
Etc

Obviously if you have all 4 of the above, only units in your CAD get Benefits (A), only units in your Horde get the (C) benefits, etc...

3) Warlord and Primary Detachment
You then pick your Warlord from any of the above, and that Detachment (Formation?) becomes your primary.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, the rules go like this:

1) Are you Battle-Forged?
Yes - you have Detachments and Formations, your Command Benefits work
No - you are playing Unbound, no Command Benefits

2) What detachments have you got?
Combined Arms Detachment - Command Benefits (A) including Objective Secured
Allied Detachment - Command Benefits (B)
Ork Horde Detachment - Command Benefits (C)
Ork Warband Formation
Etc

Obviously if you have all 4 of the above, only units in your CAD get Benefits (A), only units in your Horde get the (C) benefits, etc...

3) Warlord and Primary Detachment
You then pick your Warlord from any of the above, and that Detachment (Formation?) becomes your primary.

Well written but I would state that formation command benefits DO work in unbound

I skimmed and saw a misconception in the first Reply, not sure if it was addressed:
One can take Formations in an Unbound Army, keeping all Special Rules related to said Formation.

Leerjawise wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, the rules go like this:

1) Are you Battle-Forged?
Yes - you have Detachments and Formations, your Command Benefits work
No - you are playing Unbound, no Command Benefits

2) What detachments have you got?
Combined Arms Detachment - Command Benefits (A) including Objective Secured
Allied Detachment - Command Benefits (B)
Ork Horde Detachment - Command Benefits (C)
Ork Warband Formation
Etc

Obviously if you have all 4 of the above, only units in your CAD get Benefits (A), only units in your Horde get the (C) benefits, etc...

3) Warlord and Primary Detachment
You then pick your Warlord from any of the above, and that Detachment (Formation?) becomes your primary.

Well written but I would state that formation command benefits DO work in unbound

Page 117, already quoted in this thread , suggests otherwise

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, the rules go like this:

1) Are you Battle-Forged?
Yes - you have Detachments and Formations, your Command Benefits work
No - you are playing Unbound, no Command Benefits

2) What detachments have you got?
Combined Arms Detachment - Command Benefits (A) including Objective Secured
Allied Detachment - Command Benefits (B)
Ork Horde Detachment - Command Benefits (C)
Ork Warband Formation
Etc

Obviously if you have all 4 of the above, only units in your CAD get Benefits (A), only units in your Horde get the (C) benefits, etc...

3) Warlord and Primary Detachment
You then pick your Warlord from any of the above, and that Detachment (Formation?) becomes your primary.

Well written but I would state that formation command benefits DO work in unbound

Page 117, already quoted in this thread , suggests otherwise

Read the formation rules which specifically say that they work in unbound. If you are too lazy to look it up, I'll quote it when I get home from work

Leerjawise wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, the rules go like this:

1) Are you Battle-Forged?
Yes - you have Detachments and Formations, your Command Benefits work
No - you are playing Unbound, no Command Benefits

2) What detachments have you got?
Combined Arms Detachment - Command Benefits (A) including Objective Secured
Allied Detachment - Command Benefits (B)
Ork Horde Detachment - Command Benefits (C)
Ork Warband Formation
Etc

Obviously if you have all 4 of the above, only units in your CAD get Benefits (A), only units in your Horde get the (C) benefits, etc...

3) Warlord and Primary Detachment
You then pick your Warlord from any of the above, and that Detachment (Formation?) becomes your primary.

Well written but I would state that formation command benefits DO work in unbound

Page 117, already quoted in this thread , suggests otherwise

Read the formation rules which specifically say that they work in unbound. If you are too lazy to look it up, I'll quote it when I get home from work

No, I looked it up. I didn't make two unsupported statements in defiance of the tenets, and then call others lazy in advance of their response...

Page 117 states that "these models...do not receive command benefits", and page 121, box out, states "they maintain the special rules gained..." . Special rules, not command benefits, indicating that page 117 is still more specific,

If you disagree, a breakdown of eh would be useful.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, the rules go like this:

1) Are you Battle-Forged?
Yes - you have Detachments and Formations, your Command Benefits work
No - you are playing Unbound, no Command Benefits

2) What detachments have you got?
Combined Arms Detachment - Command Benefits (A) including Objective Secured
Allied Detachment - Command Benefits (B)
Ork Horde Detachment - Command Benefits (C)
Ork Warband Formation
Etc

Obviously if you have all 4 of the above, only units in your CAD get Benefits (A), only units in your Horde get the (C) benefits, etc...

3) Warlord and Primary Detachment
You then pick your Warlord from any of the above, and that Detachment (Formation?) becomes your primary.

Well written but I would state that formation command benefits DO work in unbound

Page 117, already quoted in this thread , suggests otherwise

Read the formation rules which specifically say that they work in unbound. If you are too lazy to look it up, I'll quote it when I get home from work

No, I looked it up. I didn't make two unsupported statements in defiance of the tenets, and then call others lazy in advance of their response...

Page 117 states that "these models...do not receive command benefits", and page 121, box out, states "they maintain the special rules gained..." . Special rules, not command benefits, indicating that page 117 is still more specific,

If you disagree, a breakdown of eh would be useful.

Are you really claiming that they aren't referring to command benefits in the Formation box? To what else would they be referring?

Formations:
"Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the formation"

Command Benefits:
"This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that detachment. For example, the units in a CAD benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective secured special rules."

Formations are obviously an exception to the "no command benefits" rule

I don't know - tank hunters for the fire base cadre , for example.

Command benefits is still more specific than all special rules,as a concept.

Question as I have not looked at too many Formation Datasheets:
How many Formations out there actually have a section labelled 'Command Benefits' as opposed to just a list of Special Rules applied to the formation?

JinxDragon wrote:
Question as I have not looked at too many Formation Datasheets:
How many Formations out there actually have a section labelled 'Command Benefits' as opposed to just a list of Special Rules applied to the formation?

At this point, I believe it is only the Ork Warband Formation which states "Command Benefits" as opposed to "Special Rules".

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, the rules go like this:

1) Are you Battle-Forged?
Yes - you have Detachments and Formations, your Command Benefits work
No - you are playing Unbound, no Command Benefits

2) What detachments have you got?
Combined Arms Detachment - Command Benefits (A) including Objective Secured
Allied Detachment - Command Benefits (B)
Ork Horde Detachment - Command Benefits (C)
Ork Warband Formation
Etc

Obviously if you have all 4 of the above, only units in your CAD get Benefits (A), only units in your Horde get the (C) benefits, etc...

3) Warlord and Primary Detachment
You then pick your Warlord from any of the above, and that Detachment (Formation?) becomes your primary.

You can't pick your Warlord from any of the Detachments. Allied Detachments are forbidden from becoming the Primary Detachment.

I should see about getting that supplement, looks like it has a lot of information that really should of been in the Codex.
Guess that answer that though, some Formations will have Command Benefits for use in Battleforged Armies.

I don't get it. Lol

I regret to inform you some of these posts above may be incorrect, specifically in regards to formations and unbound.


The models in the formation get the rules/command benefits for that formation they are from, models outside of that formation/detachment do not.

as per the BRB "A formation is a special kind of detachment"

so a formation is a detachment, the models in that formation are all part of their own special detachment, the different between a formation and a normal detachment are the formation usually requires you to have specific units where the detachment requires you to have specific battlefield roles.

so your formation cannot also be part of another detachment, it is always its own separate special type of detachment. In other words a formation is its own detachment.

from the BRB - "all the units in your army must belong to a detachment and none may belong to more than 1 detachment" as formations are a special type of detachment models in a formation may not be part of another detachment so they will gain no benefits from another detachment, and only get the benefits of their formation.

its also worth noting your primary detachment is always the detachment with your warlord.

so the answers to your questions in order:

Yes, in a battle forged list you can use the Ork warband formation, it counts as its own detachment in your list and gains no command benefits or restrictions from any other detachment.

No, Unbound lists cannot take core detachments, Detachments are only purchased for battle forged lists and unbound is not battle forged. Additionally "every model in your army that has the same Faction as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive Command Benefits." So technically you can take the ork horde detachment but as you are not restricted by FoC roles being unbound, you also do not gain any command benefits nor any restrictions so in essence you only have the name of the detachment and no rules to benefit/restrict you, so I put no as it is less confusing than saying you may take the detachment, you just follow none of the FoC gain none of the command benefits, and gain none of the restrictions

Yes, if you use unbound you can take formations and they do gain the special formation rules, as per the entry for formations in the BRB which specifically says unbound armies may do so. You must tell your opponent before the game which models are in the formation and what benefits/restrictions they have.

Johnnytorrance wrote:

...and since the looted wagon is a dataslate it doesn't count as a heavy choice slot so it can be taken in a battle forge list if you have 3 heavy slots taken up all ready

The Looted Wagon has the Battlefield role of Heavy Support. The HS icon is RIGHT THERE on the top-left corner of the page (which follows the same format as the Codex: Orks).

yep, looted wagon = heavy support

Johnnytorrance wrote:

Wuffell wrote:
Hi all, I'm one of the many who is confused about battle forged and unbound lists and detachments/formations.

I just picked up the new Ork codex, and there's an Ork Warband formation, plus an Ork Horde detachment.

I'm just a casual player and I want to use a variety of my ork units. This will likely involve more than three heavy choices, for example. So I'm either looking to use multiple detachments or an Unbound list so I can cram enough things into there. First though, I would like some help so I know what I can field.

If I use a battle forged list, I know I can use the Ork Horde detachment.
If I use a battle forged list, can I use the Ork Warband formation?
If I use an unbound list, can I use the Ork Horde detachment?
If I use an unbound list, can I use the Ork Warband formation?

Thanks

Yes, you can use the Ork Warband formation in a battle forged list.

It's just like special detachment but can also be your primary detachment.
If you unbound a ork horde detachment you don't get the command benefits
If you unbound the warband formation you can't use the command traits.

So:

Yes
No
No


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But if you use the formation, you could use a standard combined arms detatchment of 1 HQ and 2 Troops minimum and since the looted wagon is a dataslate it doesn't count as a heavy choice slot so it can be taken in a battle forge list if you have 3 heavy slots taken up all ready

The answer order should be:
yes
yes
no
yes.

Formations and detachments can be taken in Battleforged. Formations can also be taken in UnBound.

LoH wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:

...and since the looted wagon is a dataslate it doesn't count as a heavy choice slot so it can be taken in a battle forge list if you have 3 heavy slots taken up all ready

The Looted Wagon has the Battlefield role of Heavy Support. The HS icon is RIGHT THERE on the top-left corner of the page (which follows the same format as the Codex: Orks).

Yeah, but it's a bit unintuitive since prior to the new Ork Codex they've always spelled out in text what slot a unit occupies (whether in a header in a codex, or in a little text blurb on Forgeworld stuff). So yes, you're correct (and I was about to post the same thing if I hadn't run across your post), but being snippy about it this early in the format change is maybe a bit unnecessary.

If the capitalization of "right there" wasn't intended to be snippy, ignore me. But it certainly reads like you're chastising him for missing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, barring a clarification from GW, I'm inclined to say that the benefits of the Ork Warband don't apply in an unbound list, because they're listed as Command Benefits and unbound specifically disallows those. It's new terminology, and it remains to be seen whether they're reclassifying all formation effects as Command Benefits (and if so, whether they're supposed to override the unbound removal) or if this particular one is special.