Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

An ongoing debate has started over how many SM's it would take to conquer a planet though I believe sieze is a better word for it.

How many do you think can get the job done?

Clarification: The world in question would be a standard Imperial civilized world.

By sieze, do you mean:

Crush all organised opposition
Crush all opposition
Establish a fragile occupation
Establish a stable occupation

?

I assume you meant the former so I voted 100.

Assuming standard Imperial world.

Depends on a planet. Half a company could invade something like a agricultural world without too much difficulty. But you would need a entire chapter or 2 to take over a properly fortified world.

 Ashiraya wrote:
By sieze, do you mean:

Crush all organised opposition
Crush all opposition
Establish a fragile occupation
Establish a stable occupation

?

I assume you meant the former so I voted 100.

Assuming standard Imperial world.

By military logic and diplomacy. Invading a world is a last resort for almost any SM chapter. Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?

You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.

Realistically, to seize it? Depends entirely on what you define as "seizing". If you just mean destroying whatever government is there, it could be very few or a lot. If you mean *HOLDING* a planet, realistically you'd need millions.

Evens super soldiers have limits, and a planet is a very large thing indeed. Even with a hundred thousand Space Marines, they just couldn't be everywhere they'd need to be. If you look at a battlefront like WW2's eastern front, a hundred thousand Space Marines would be stretched out to 50 per mile of front, which makes for a very thin front indeed. Having to hold an entire planet against a hostile populace and millions of reasonably equipped troops? They'd need huge numbers of Space Marines simply to just provide presence and eyes in certain areas, much less to actually have enough to hold anything.

The Space Marines don't really work well once you start breaking them down from any sort of realistic perspective.

 sing your life wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?

You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.

A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.

Define standard Imperial world. What defences are there? What military forces are there? How big is it? How good is the environment? How big is the population? Could be 1 marine to take over some planets could be 1000 for others.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?

You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.

A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.

Well then I voted 100 based on my previous post.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Realistically, to seize it? Depends entirely on what you define as "seizing". If you just mean destroying whatever government is there, it could be very few or a lot. If you mean *HOLDING* a planet, realistically you'd need millions.

Evens super soldiers have limits, and a planet is a very large thing indeed. Even with a hundred thousand Space Marines, they just couldn't be everywhere they'd need to be. If you look at a battlefront like WW2's eastern front, a hundred thousand Space Marines would be stretched out to 50 per mile of front, which makes for a very thin front indeed. Having to hold an entire planet against a hostile populace and millions of reasonably equipped troops? They'd need huge numbers of Space Marines simply to just provide presence and eyes in certain areas, much less to actually have enough to hold anything.

The Space Marines don't really work well once you start breaking them down from any sort of realistic perspective.

By "seize" I mean to take away suddenly and by force, though holding it wold be absurd. That is better left to the IG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Define standard Imperial world. What defences are there? What military forces are there? How big is it? How good is the environment? How big is the population? Could be 1 marine to take over some planets could be 1000 for others.

Please read the description. Standard Civilized world.

Of course I'm half asleep right now. Lol, I missed "civilized" in my message to sing your life. My bad

Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.

That's the gist for most SM chapters. They'd rather not have to fight an entire population but rather intimidate them into surrender.

However, if the leader goes by the name of Tom Zarek then nobody will surrender *sigh*

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.

That's another thing, the SM's don't have much of an intelligence apparatus, yet apparently always know when, where, and how their opponents are operating. Lightning reactions aren't always the best responses

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.

That's another thing, the SM's don't have much of an intelligence apparatus, yet apparently always know when, where, and how their opponents are operating. Lightning reactions aren't always the best responses

Plot twist: All humans have been probed at birth and don't know it

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Define standard Imperial world. What defences are there? What military forces are there? How big is it? How good is the environment? How big is the population? Could be 1 marine to take over some planets could be 1000 for others.

Please read the description. Standard Civilized world.

Of course I'm half asleep right now. Lol, I missed "civilized" in my message to sing your life. My bad

An important distinction, here, between TAKE a planet and HOLD a planet.

A battle company is exactly the size you need to take an Imperial world in rebellion. With drop pods and teleporters, Marines are set into a few key areas (The planet's ruler's home/seat of government, a spaceport, and then 1-3 lesser targets, such as a munitions plant or a dam) and then allowed to do what they do. This lets you cut the head off the snake and establish a beachhead, which is when larger forces, like the Guard, come in. Marine manpower is too slow to HOLD a world for long... a month at best before you have so many riots and small resistance groups that you can't deal with it.

This is one of the reasons that they don't use camo and wear the paint boldly: They're a "Shock and Awe" force, dropping in like concquers and using fear to keep the populace quelled long enough for support to arrive. When the Marines show up, in big bright armor and waving banners and symbols around, you know that "The Emperor is HERE" and that alone will keep the peace briefly. Once the Guard show up, the Marines pass rulership and occupation duties over, then go back to the ship to work on replacing their casualties and resupply, waiting for the next mission. You might leave a token force behind (Say, a tactical squad and a veteran sergeant) to serve as advisors and a bodyguard for the new governor for a while, but they'll be picked back up on the ship's next pass.

The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces

That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.

If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.

Alright everybody, I'm done trying to explain every single little thing. Seize, conquer, destroy, obliterate, kill and occupy, whatever. Stop giving me grey hairs over the uneeded complication of a single word. You all are big girls and boys and I'm sure you can interpret the above question without needing to ask a billion questions.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces

That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.

If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.

You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship.

I always liked the short story that was either on the Raptors or the Emperor's Swords, can't remember which. A Rogue Trader went to dine with with the planetary lord. Then he steps away and presses a button on his pocket watch (or something, but it was some pointless jewelry) and suddenly terminators teleport in- the rogue trader was wearing a homer. The Terminators then mow down the entire government, but the planetary lord manages to escape to his bunker thanks to wearing a Rosarius. Then the rest of the company sweeps through the capital and butchers everything until they get to the vault, blow it open with a multi-melta, and kill the planetary lord. Fairly good story and a good example of how a Chapter can bring a planet to its knees.

Oh, and the scouts attached to the combat force pinned down the arbites by popping their commanders and anyone else who stuck out their heads.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces

That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.

If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.

You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship.

It's not the type of government, it's the centralization aspect. The USSR wasn't a democracy either, but taking the Kremlin in and of itself wouldn't have given an invading force control of the nation, as there were large numbers of backup command centers and a political continuance plan.

To put it another way, a specialized commando force able to drop in from space could probably take control of North Korea's government because it is so centralized and invested in a small number of people in one city, but not China or South Korea's as there's significantly more redundancy in military and civilian command and control, despite China and South Korea having radically different governments.

I always liked the short story that was either on the Raptors or the Emperor's Swords, can't remember which. A Rogue Trader went to dine with with the planetary lord. Then he steps away and presses a button on his pocket watch (or something, but it was some pointless jewelry) and suddenly terminators teleport in- the rogue trader was wearing a homer. The Terminators then mow down the entire government, but the planetary lord manages to escape to his bunker thanks to wearing a Rosarius.

And that only works if the Planetary Governor governs like a Kim-Jong-un, with very little dilineated power to subordinates or decentralized operations. No lesser Nobles or House siblings to take over or operate sub-jurisdictions, etc.

Then the rest of the company sweeps through the capital and butchers everything until they get to the vault, blow it open with a multi-melta, and kill the planetary lord. Fairly good story and a good example of how a Chapter can bring a planet to its knees.

Which requires them to know where the vault is, how to get there, have relatively light defenses, no additional escape plan, etc.

Oh, and the scouts attached to the combat force pinned down the arbites by popping their commanders and anyone else who stuck out their heads.

Which, from any sort of realistic perspective, requires them to know where and who the enemy commanders are, and be able to get relatively close and in a position where they can fire at them. If they don't know any of these things, and/or the enemy is operating from a command bunker or heavy armored vehicle or miles behind the lines, it makes that whole endeavor pointless.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces

That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.

If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.

You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship.

It's not the type of government, it's the centralization aspect. The USSR wasn't a democracy either, but taking the Kremlin in and of itself wouldn't have given an invading force control of the nation, as there were large numbers of backup command centers and a political continuance plan.

To put it another way, a specialized commando force able to drop in from space could probably take control of North Korea's government because it is so centralized and invested in a small number of people in one city, but not China or South Korea's as there's significantly more redundancy in military and civilian command and control, despite China and South Korea having radically different governments.

I wasn't saying its similar to say the USSR, I mean an actual true dictatorship bordering on a monarchy. One guy rules the entire planet, he lives in one city, and everything else obeys him. There may be one or two other people capable of rallying aid to them, but they live in the same Hive City.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces

That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.

If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.

You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship.

It's not the type of government, it's the centralization aspect. The USSR wasn't a democracy either, but taking the Kremlin in and of itself wouldn't have given an invading force control of the nation, as there were large numbers of backup command centers and a political continuance plan.

To put it another way, a specialized commando force able to drop in from space could probably take control of North Korea's government because it is so centralized and invested in a small number of people in one city, but not China or South Korea's as there's significantly more redundancy in military and civilian command and control, despite China and South Korea having radically different governments.

I wasn't saying its similar to say the USSR, I mean an actual true dictatorship bordering on a monarchy. One guy rules the entire planet, he lives in one city, and everything else obeys him. There may be one or two other people capable of rallying aid to them, but they live in the same Hive City.

Right, in that case you can do it with a single lightning strike. But if there's multiple lords, or if they have sub-lords operating different areas of the planet in their name, or if there's any sort of political continuation system in place, or an effective escape/recovery plan, that all goes out the window.

In terms of real military necessities and logistics, even with Space Marines as presented in fluff, the minimum is 100,000. It takes an enormous amount of troops to occupy anything, even if you completely overwhelm the enemy. The US curbstomped Iraq and 250,000 wasn't nearly enough to contain the country effectively. Yes, US soldiers aren't Space Marines, but Space Marines aren't Gods either.

To take and hold an Imperial world?

More than a hundred thousand, assuming no auxiliary forces. For pacification, you need something like one soldier/peacekeeper/face-of-authority for every hundred or so people, assuming they don't want to cause problems.

A more meaningful question would be "How many Marines would you need for ten million Guardsmen to take and hold a planet in a reasonable amount of time."

Which the answer would be "Ten for every day less than a year you want the war to take" or so.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
To take and hold an Imperial world?

More than a hundred thousand, assuming no auxiliary forces. For pacification, you need something like one soldier/peacekeeper/face-of-authority for every hundred or so people, assuming they don't want to cause problems.

A more meaningful question would be "How many Marines would you need for ten million Guardsmen to take and hold a planet in a reasonable amount of time."

Which the answer would be "Ten for every day less than a year you want the war to take" or so.

I agree pretty much completely with this.

No not pretty much. I agree completely.

Wow, just wooooooow.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Wow, just wooooooow. Dakka is terrble. Im done with that disrespect. Delete aything you want Dakka, i still saw it

Wat?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Wow, just wooooooow.

Wat?

I was plainly insulted for being American.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Wow, just wooooooow. Dakka is terrble. Im done with that disrespect. Delete aything you want Dakka, i still saw it

Wat?

Got deleted. I was plainly insulted for being American. They can erase it from the web but it'll stay in my mind.

To be fair, a lot of anti-American bashing can be made from a legitimate position, but bashing people is stupid. Still

-flies "Woo We're Number 10" flag-

Oh wait, It was on another thread.