Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Seems like we already have an initial answer (back on 12/11/14), and it isn't particualryl great:

Mad Martigan wrote: Hi guys,
Just got feedback from them - it is not in their roadmap as of today - they're game makers, not in the business of molding/printing figs.
Nevertheless, they'll keep an ear to this kind of requests...
I think we'll just all have to wait for the campaign in 20 days from now, to see if they make "figs only" add-ons.

Frankly, I have had the chance to try the game, in its early stage, when it was all meeples and paper, and the art from Adrian Smith was just a few pictures on an ipad. There was just one map, and only one scenario on it, we plaid it twice nevertheless, and when i sat by the overlord for the second round, it was a completely different game that took place... not only the mechanics are different, but the same scenario turned out completely different. We were made to stop through the night by the bartenders, as they were to close (no third round). We had tremendous fun, and the appeal was for the game itself, not the minis - we had no idea they would be so good-looking, nor that there would be that many. It just adds to the thrill, and explains why everyone who approached the game during its test phases got intoxicated.

Over here, I am too slow at painting, and I'll be thrilled when I am through the main minis - so I personnally won't go for a bucket full of minis, on top of the game : I'll spend my bucks on add-ons for extra maps and the handful of scenarios that will come with each one of them, but if you're a great painter, I can see why you would want another 100's of such figs.

voilà, hope this helps... Mad

So, yeah.

Still, may be if enough of us ask *during* the campaign?

 Alpharius wrote:
Seems like we already have an initial answer (back on 12/11/14), and it isn't particualryl great:

Mad Martigan wrote: Hi guys,
Just got feedback from them - it is not in their roadmap as of today - they're game makers, not in the business of molding/printing figs.
Nevertheless, they'll keep an ear to this kind of requests...
I think we'll just all have to wait for the campaign in 20 days from now, to see if they make "figs only" add-ons.

Frankly, I have had the chance to try the game, in its early stage, when it was all meeples and paper, and the art from Adrian Smith was just a few pictures on an ipad. There was just one map, and only one scenario on it, we plaid it twice nevertheless, and when i sat by the overlord for the second round, it was a completely different game that took place... not only the mechanics are different, but the same scenario turned out completely different. We were made to stop through the night by the bartenders, as they were to close (no third round). We had tremendous fun, and the appeal was for the game itself, not the minis - we had no idea they would be so good-looking, nor that there would be that many. It just adds to the thrill, and explains why everyone who approached the game during its test phases got intoxicated.

Over here, I am too slow at painting, and I'll be thrilled when I am through the main minis - so I personnally won't go for a bucket full of minis, on top of the game : I'll spend my bucks on add-ons for extra maps and the handful of scenarios that will come with each one of them, but if you're a great painter, I can see why you would want another 100's of such figs.

voilà, hope this helps... Mad

So, yeah.

Still, may be if enough of us ask *during* the campaign?

Yea, well, it isn't about volumne of figures, it is about beautiful artwork being desecrated by manufacturing that does not do it justice. If it was just about the game, why pay top dollar for such high quality sculpts? They could have paid for middling quality sculpts for a fraction of the cost.

You pay for those sculpts to excite miniatures gamers. Why bother to get miniatures gamers excited by good sculpts just to manufacture them in a way which involves a significant loss of fidelity? It is sort of disingenuous. Clearly, someone was concerned about the quality of the miniatures, else why pimp the names of the sculptors? Why use that to market the product? Why come on DakkaDakka touting the miniatures and the artists just to say, 'we are game designers, so whatever with the miniatures'?

And frankly, looking at that character card, I have serious enough concerns about the rules that I'd like to play it before I buy it. I'll need to see the full game rules, or a substantive portion of them, before committing to the project. Anybody can say a game is good, but game designers who do what I see on that card are going to have to convince me there's nothing to be concerned about... The proof is in the pudding.

Wow. My interest just dropped off.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Mutter wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
And like you say, with producer trust eroding, Kickstarter is only great for established companies with the funds to prepare a lavish campaign steeped in beautiful artwork and finished miniatures.

Not true. I backed quite a number of little indie-projects and very few of them were dissapointing. You just have to keep in mind that there is always a risk involved. But then, sometimes ordering established products through an online merchant brings its own risks (thank you again, Rob Lane!).
Just don't back everything willy-nilly, weigh your options and your risks carefully and you'll be able to back lots of wonderful little projects which would have never seen the light otherwise.

Yep. What's really fantastic though is that their stuff is up for anyone to enjoy after the KS; I couldn't afford to back the Oathsworn KS' at the time, but because of the KS backers and Oathsworn not being grasping "Kickstarter as business model" types, I can now go and buy the models. And that's all I want, companies to use Kickstarter to actually fund their products, not as a preorder system for a super-ultra-special-limited edition of their product that, providing it generates a surplus and they're in a good mood, might eventually lead to a much reduced "Afterthought Edition" being made available for the plebs.

So basically you want to reap the same rewards off other people risking their funds?

Strawman argument. Quite apart from the fact that there are two benefits inherent to being a backer(seeing a project you want to happen happen, and getting it before everyone else), it's entirely possible to reward backers without also taking a massive squirty dump on future retail customers. Reasonable discounts, exclusive alternate sculpts(see Mierce's various helmed or unhelmed variants), even just plain old exclusive models as long as it's one or two and not dozens. Regardless, the core point of the KS is supposed to be that you back things you want to see made, not just for yourself but because you think the creator's work is worthwhile or fills a gap in the market that may otherwise remain unfilled; you have to be a special kind of selfish to want that, but only for you and other backers - I've backed 4 KS; Creature Caster, Raging Heroes TGG, Troll Outpost, and Twisting Catacombs, so what, by your reckoning I should brand anyone who later buys those things at retail as a freeloader?

Sorry man, there needs to be a good incentive to spend money early, potentially getting nothing in return. Exclusives are here to stay for smart campaigns.

You're going to have to help me here; where did I argue there should be no incentives? Oh yes, I remember now, I didn't. See above.

There is a lot of information on that card. A LOT. I'm sure a lot of it will come by second nature after a few playthroughs, but still- there's a lot of numbers and icons on that card.

Plus no co op.

I'm afraid of this game's chances of getting to my table.

I can't help but be reminded of Myth- lots of positive word of mouth from designer- guided playthroughs early on, yet when backers received it- hijinks ensued.

I'll wait and let my wallet pass final judgement on the project when the campaign comes close to wrapping up.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
There is a lot of information on that card. A LOT. I'm sure a lot of it will come by second nature after a few playthroughs, but still- there's a lot of numbers and icons on that card.

Plus no co op.

I'm afraid of this game's chances of getting to my table.

I can't help but be reminded of Myth- lots of positive word of mouth from designer- guided playthroughs early on, yet when backers received it- hijinks ensued.

I'll wait and let my wallet pass final judgement on the project when the campaign comes close to wrapping up.

Indeed. Also, I thought it was co-op, just co-op GM'd, like Super Dungeon Explore or HeroQuest.

As for the card, Jebus.

First, it is laid terribly in my opinion. That's a graphic design problem. That information could have been presented in a better, more space conscious, easier to reference manner without some of that distracting artwork. WTF is the cube? Is it magic, or smarts, or your skillz at geometry?

Second, the game is obviously designed to be fast and furious. That is what we have heard from gameplay descriptions, and the art style of the card is consistent with that. ASYMMETRIC SQUARES! WARM COLORS! RUNNING! JUMPING! RUNNING AGAIN! AXE! RUNNING SOME MORE! ARROWS! MORE ARROWS!

I'm all about a fast-paced game. Heck, when my game hits the market it will likely blow this game out of the water in terms of fast pacing. But fast-paced games do not mix well with LOTS OF NUMBERS! Oh my God are there lots of numbers. And the only reason to have all those numbers is so that different characters will have...DIFFERENT NUMBERS! It's all fine and good to have lots of numbers and 20 different ways to move, but the more BS you make your players do, the slower the game gets.

You realize that you are going to have to track your equipment weight, right? You are going to have to track it with no slider or marker or anything. You just have to remember it, or add it all up every time you move.

"Okay, so I have the battle axe, that's 3 weights. My leather armor is 2 weights, my sword is 2 weights, and my dagger is 1 weights. That's 8 weights...so I am at -1 movements."

"But you picked up the crystal skull gem, right? Isn't that 2 weights?"

"Yea, but this version of Conan can carry 12 weights."

"But at 10 weights he loses 2 movements, so you wouldn't have made that jump."

"Oh...yea, you're right. I guess Conan will have to drop his dagger to make that jump, or something."

You are likely going to be staring at your card half of the game instead of the board and the fancy miniatures.

And what is with the numbers with the dice colors? Is it number of dice, or a modifier? Conan has 5/red for melee, and a Battle Axe only adds one red die, presumably. So does Conan roll 5 red dice for melee, and only get one extra die for using a big damn battle axe? Or does the 5 add a modifier to the roll, and Conan rolls one red die for being a bad-, adds another red die for his big- axe, and then adds 5 to the roll?

Neither option seems like a terribly good idea to me. And what's with the tinted boxes and the arrows down at the bottom? Are you going to modify the character based on day/night conditions, how many skullz the character has, what equipment he is using, what weight he is carrying, AND what his tinted box level is?

And finally, how many different dice are there?!? I see three colors on Conan's card there: Yellow, Orange, and Red (because it is a fast and furious game, right?). Are those the only colors? Is there also Green and Blue? So now the players have to keep making sure that they have the right number AND color of dice every time they roll something. And then modify the results. I mean...seriously.

Hey there guys, My name is Jamie and I'm working with Monolith on the Conan board game!

I noticed we haven't been present here for a while now, my apologies for that! I had a good read through the thread and picked out a few of the reoccurring details though if I have missed something don't be afraid to ask!

Ok so:

The Models
oh this is my favourite part, now bear in mind I am a long time tabletop wargamer so the models are a huuuge thing for me so I'm not going to bs you guys on this. Yes the sculpts are awesome, yes it would be an absolute travesty to have them massacred by cheap production methods so believe me when I say that we are not going to let this happen!

The models will be in PVC, it's the only way to reliably produce a game of this size (150+ models), however, they will be in the highest quality available like that used by The Others and Dust: Tactics.

Sadly we will not be producing resin casts of these models. AS much as we would like to, and we have had a lot of demand for these, it is a very complicated process when it comes to quality testing, shipping and customer service. So much so that it would undermine our main objective: producing a great game and getting it shipped out, on time.

But from one miniature gamer to another I can guarantee you that despite this, the PVC versions of these models will be well worth the wait!

Coop & 1vsX

Now this is a long subject. I actually interviewed Frédéric Henry for Ravage Magazine and he explained his thought process behind this, I'll have to check to see if I can eventually repost it here but in the mean time I will summarise:

The objective was to create a game that was both challenging and immersive. There are some very goood AI systems out there but you just can't beat having another player infront of you who is actively plotting against you and trying to catch you out. To incentivise this the "Overlord" is not just a simple GM, he plays with his own objectives and game mechanics which give him a totally different experience to those of the heroes. Fact: during demos at various events a lot of players were more interested in playing the overlord than the heroes!

So it really is a design choice, that being said it is understandable that this may put some people off. All I'll say is give it a chance, it may surprise you. There will be plenty of videos coming out during the campaign that will show you just what sort of game it is!


And so that leads us to Mr. Weeble1000. As the last comment I'll reply to this one directly.

Frankly you are one of the first to complain about the layout of the boards. Most find it very easy to understand once they know the rules, which are very easy to learn. The proof, during demo events it normally took about 10mins to explain the rules to all the players. Its also worth mentioning that these are still alpha designs, they may change in time but we are pretty pleased with how they are turning out so far.

Here in lies the problem though I think. I'm assuming you haven't actually seen anything about the rules or you might think otherwise, in which case you are in luck as I have here a short video explaining the main rules!




Give that a look and you'll see that the "Cubes" actually indicate what kind of dice you roll, of which there are 3 (yellow=weak, red=strong, orange=in-between), the arrows over some of them mean you get a free re-roll. Tracking weight is really not that difficult, when you pick up a new object you add its weight to that that you're currently carrying and if, by chance it goes over the number indicated on one of you skills (the small boxes below the main actions) then you lose that skill and cover it with a marker. Not that difficult to track as most players should be familiar with basic maths.

Also, it should be pointed out that Conan is not a "fast and furious" game. Jungle Speed or Escape are both "fast and furious", Conan is fluid and immersive. The idea being to live a real Hyborian adventure that feels authentic. Not just throw buckets of dice and remove spades of models from the board, after that, you can play as fast as you like. Anyway, check out the video, you sound like a really passionate gamer so I think you'll be pleasantly surprised

Well I am glad to know that the miniatures are a priority for you guys. the production values applied here thus far are very impressive so I do not doubt your desire to maintain the quality of the product. I have heard good things about the Dust studios plastic production but I personally have yet to have first hand experience with it. Have you guys had any molds tooled and if so have you cast any prototypes in the PVC yet?

Your response is much appreciated Jamie, if a little disappointing(in that resin is ruled out). Are Monolith at least open to considering a minis-only pledge?

I can understand if you don't want to offer individual figures for sale, given the logistics of dividing up a mass-production run intended for a board game, but if you were to offer, for example, a "just the minis" pledge equivalent to the model contents of the regular boxed game, and another "just the minis" pledge equivalent to the model contents of the "deluxe" box, it shouldn't be too difficult to "over order" batches of models relative to the number of actual boxed sets. You want people to buy and play your game, I get that as well, but at the end of the day speaking for only myself; it's only the models that interest me, I don't have time to devote to playing another game system, and I'd seriously hesitate to buy the whole game knowing that I'd be paying for a load of extra bits and bobs which would only either take up my already limited storage space or just get chucked in the bin.

Hesitation aside, the miniatures are still enough to interest me...but, can I ask; will you have some samples of your own sculpts in the material to show before the end of the KS? What I've seen of The Others is encouraging(Dust less-so), but a lot of us from the wargaming side of things have been heavily burned in the past by companies purporting to have cracked the super-special-secret recipe for producing high-quality models in PVC, and I think a lot of us will struggle to justify the likely substantial "sweet spot" pledge necessary to get all the models you'll be offering unless we can see some examples up-front.

Cheers.

As Yodhrin has said, I am one of those that hasn't been very satisfied with the quality of PVC. They can be good, but I'm not too keen to drop a couple hundred bucks on "it might be good", so I'll wait until some finished product has rolled around before I commit to a pledge/purchase.

While I'm in the same boat as Yodhrin and Sinful Hero in terms of being more interested in the minis than the game

other boardgame KS that have offered a minis only option (due to fan requests) have found that the uptake of this option did not justify the extra time/effort (for example Cthulhu Wars)

so while I might well benefit from it whether it would be worth the trouble I'm not sure

Dust studios does some bitching plastics. The Others model I have is incredible and surpasses most HIPS I've worked with and even some resin.

If dust studios is printing the game, I'm fairly confident the minis will be more than good enough (see: paintable) for what 99% of the painters out there can do.

Thanks for coming on here to weigh in on things Jamie, that is much appreciated!

 Yodhrin wrote:
You want people to buy and play your game, I get that as well, but at the end of the day speaking for only myself; it's only the models that interest me, I don't have time to devote to playing another game system, and I'd seriously hesitate to buy the whole game knowing that I'd be paying for a load of extra bits and bobs which would only either take up my already limited storage space or just get chucked in the bin.

Hesitation aside, the miniatures are still enough to interest me...but, can I ask; will you have some samples of your own sculpts in the material to show before the end of the KS? What I've seen of The Others is encouraging(Dust less-so), but a lot of us from the wargaming side of things have been heavily burned in the past by companies purporting to have cracked the super-special-secret recipe for producing high-quality models in PVC, and I think a lot of us will struggle to justify the likely substantial "sweet spot" pledge necessary to get all the models you'll be offering unless we can see some examples up-front.

+1 to all that; it's exactly how I feel.

 cincydooley wrote:
Dust studios does some bitching plastics. The Others model I have is incredible and surpasses most HIPS I've worked with and even some resin.

If dust studios is printing the game, I'm fairly confident the minis will be more than good enough (see: paintable) for what 99% of the painters out there can do.

OK, cool, that does sound pretty good. I don't have any experience of my own with the various plastics that have been used in board and war games these last couple of years (Zombicide, Mars Attacks, Dust etc etc), but I've seen some pictures that make me hesitant to buy unseen. I've also seen some pictures of a few of the beasts from The Others that looked spectacular, but it was never 100% clear to me if what was photographed was a finished production model or a resin master. But you actually own one in PVC then?

I appreciate the response Jamie.

As I mentioned in my posts, I haven't had any exposure to the rules aside from a few written descriptions of gameplay experience.

Having watched the video, my concerns are somewhat allayed. Those numbers indicate the maximum number of stamina gems that can be dedicated to a particular action in a turn, yes? That is, Conan has a 3 in "manipulation," and can therefore only spend up to three stamina gems on manipulation in a given game turn, if I have the gist. Players spend their time managing stamina, and the state of the game is reflected on the cards.

Personally, I think tracking the state of the game is fine, but I am concerned (not having played the game) that there are a relatively significant number of gameplay states to keep track of.

Compare, for example, to a very simple game like Zombicide. In Zombicide you've got to track exp, up to five card slots (3 passive 2 active), and a very small skill tree. That's it. Very simple and reasonably clean, although the card slots can get a little jumbly.

Compare also to a relatively simple game like Mice and Mystics. Two active cards, three passive cards, 4 attributes modified by cards, and a small number of skills. Apart from items, there's two numbers of things to keep track of: wounds and cheese.

Compare to Super Dungeon Explore where you have up to four cards with a handy location layout to simplify equipment, and you are only tracking wounds and potions.

There's lots of other dungeon crawlers that one could compare to, but those are three good examples, I think. In my view, those three games are ordered in terms of complexity of gameplay and state of game tracking from simplest to most complex, comparatively: Zombicide, Mice and Mystics, Super Dungeon Explore (SDE). Much like Conan, SDE has the added complexity of multiple die types.

Conan seems, in view from afar, to be comparatively more complex, with more and more interrelated game states to track. My concerns are two-fold: First, does this complexity add depth to the game in a proportion satisfying in comparison to the complexity of gameplay? Second, how does this complexity impact speed of play?

Zombicide is a boneheadedly simple game in terms of the mechanics, but it offers a very satisfying depth of gameplay and can be played very quickly. Very small changes to the mechanics, such as swapping in a character with a different skill or altering the layout of the game board, cause comparatively dramatic changes to the way the game plays. There are only three differences between a runner zombie and a walker zombie, for example: Runners activate twice, Runners are below Fatties in ranged combat target priority, and there are fewer Runner miniatures in the box. That's it. Those very few differences nevertheless make Runner zombies a totally different threat than Walker zombies. In short, you get a lot of bang for your buck in terms of Zombicide's complexity. That's good.

In my opinion, SDE can be a little shallow in terms of the depth you get for your complexity. Mice and Mystics is fairly shallow as well, but makes up a lot of ground in overall simplicity of gameplay. My four-year-old can play Mice and Mystics with me, whereas if we played Zombicide, his juvenile decision-making would likely get all of the survivors killed.

From what I have seen with Conan, the basic mechanics of stamina seem to offer plenty of interesting depth, but there's a bunch of complexity otherwise mixed in. Looking in from the outside, so to speak, I have concerns about whether such complexity is necessary, and whether it adds meaningfully to the gameplay experience.

Why care so much about weight, for example?

If the answer is that weight does not mean much, then why bother to have it in the rules? If the answer is that weight is situational, and only important in certain scenarios, why not relegate it to scenario special rules? If the answer is that it is a critical limiting factor to keep characters powered appropriately, why not use a simpler system to limit item use/availability, such as item slots? If the answer is that overall item weight and its distribution throughout party members is an important resource to manage in most scenarios, what does the management of that collective resource add to the gameplay experience?

These questions are not strictly rhetorical, by the way, and I invite you to respond.

 cincydooley wrote:
Dust studios does some bitching plastics. The Others model I have is incredible and surpasses most HIPS I've worked with and even some resin.

If dust studios is printing the game, I'm fairly confident the minis will be more than good enough (see: paintable) for what 99% of the painters out there can do.

.....weeeelll.....If it is the model that I am thinking it is then there is a rather significant difference in the possibilities between it an the human sized models of the Conan game. The larger the model the " better " the detail. The smaller the model the more that detail fidelity will reduce. As per my knowledge, which admittedly, is all second hand. I still think there should at least be a set of plastic proto-types ready to show for the KS pitch. All the money spent in bells and whistles ( art ) coudl very easily have funded a tool and test run at least.

Yes, the size of the sculpts is is slightly larger because after the plastic molding the size is reduce a little,like the feet for example so we sculpt long feet because we know they will be reduce.Finally the size is like confrontation model, you can have an idea of the size with the photo with different models, imagine them a little bit smaller

Ok people, buckle up, here we go:

 tre manor wrote:
Well I am glad to know that the miniatures are a priority for you guys. the production values applied here thus far are very impressive so I do not doubt your desire to maintain the quality of the product. I have heard good things about the Dust studios plastic production but I personally have yet to have first hand experience with it. Have you guys had any molds tooled and if so have you cast any prototypes in the PVC yet?

I have a fair few dust models in my collection (with more coming once my babylon stuff arrives!) so I can attest first hand to the quality of it. Buy models that come out already properly built an under-coated is awesome. I'm afraid I can't say for the moulds yet but the plan is to have something to show for the campaign if we can.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Your response is much appreciated Jamie, if a little disappointing(in that resin is ruled out). Are Monolith at least open to considering a minis-only pledge?

I can understand if you don't want to offer individual figures for sale, given the logistics of dividing up a mass-production run intended for a board game, but if you were to offer, for example, a "just the minis" pledge equivalent to the model contents of the regular boxed game, and another "just the minis" pledge equivalent to the model contents of the "deluxe" box, it shouldn't be too difficult to "over order" batches of models relative to the number of actual boxed sets. You want people to buy and play your game, I get that as well, but at the end of the day speaking for only myself; it's only the models that interest me, I don't have time to devote to playing another game system, and I'd seriously hesitate to buy the whole game knowing that I'd be paying for a load of extra bits and bobs which would only either take up my already limited storage space or just get chucked in the bin.

Hesitation aside, the miniatures are still enough to interest me...but, can I ask; will you have some samples of your own sculpts in the material to show before the end of the KS? What I've seen of The Others is encouraging(Dust less-so), but a lot of us from the wargaming side of things have been heavily burned in the past by companies purporting to have cracked the super-special-secret recipe for producing high-quality models in PVC, and I think a lot of us will struggle to justify the likely substantial "sweet spot" pledge necessary to get all the models you'll be offering unless we can see some examples up-front.

Cheers.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
While I'm in the same boat as Yodhrin and Sinful Hero in terms of being more interested in the minis than the game

other boardgame KS that have offered a minis only option (due to fan requests) have found that the uptake of this option did not justify the extra time/effort (for example Cthulhu Wars)

so while I might well benefit from it whether it would be worth the trouble I'm not sure

For the moment, there are no plans for a mini only pledge. The major problem being that due to amount of investment that has not only gone in to the minis themselves but also the game that is built around them, if we were do to a pledge like this its cost would be unfairly high compared to the price of the full boxed game. This may however change, anything is possible during the campaign and I would like to see this happen myself.

Whilst we are on the subject of games system however just note this is a board game, not really a tabletop system like 40k or other. A game of Conan should take you about 1h tops once you have the rules in mind (which as I mentioned before are very straight forward)

As for the PVC, we're not reinventing the wheel here, there is no super secret recipe here just tried and tested methods that have proven their worth. We will not only be using the highest quality methods but we also started planning for this from day one: a lot of the detail on the master sculpts is actually over exaggerated in order to accommodate some "shrinkage" from the PVC for example. We are committed to having great minis and are fully confident we can achieve this. As I said above, we hope to have some to show before the end of the campaign.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
As Yodhrin has said, I am one of those that hasn't been very satisfied with the quality of PVC. They can be good, but I'm not too keen to drop a couple hundred bucks on "it might be good", so I'll wait until some finished product has rolled around before I commit to a pledge/purchase.

Thats perfectly understandable, it's true that others have mucked it up in the past. Hopefully we'll have something to show you during the campaign otherwise there will still be a retail release at a later date

 Trodax wrote:
OK, cool, that does sound pretty good. I don't have any experience of my own with the various plastics that have been used in board and war games these last couple of years (Zombicide, Mars Attacks, Dust etc etc), but I've seen some pictures that make me hesitant to buy unseen. I've also seen some pictures of a few of the beasts from The Others that looked spectacular, but it was never 100% clear to me if what was photographed was a finished production model or a resin master. But you actually own one in PVC then?

Yes we do have real life examples of The Others PVC and let me tell you they look fantastic! There's a bit of wavy-base syndrome but nothing that can't be easily corrected.

weeble1000 wrote:
I appreciate the response Jamie.

As I mentioned in my posts, I haven't had any exposure to the rules aside from a few written descriptions of gameplay experience.

Having watched the video, my concerns are somewhat allayed. Those numbers indicate the maximum number of stamina gems that can be dedicated to a particular action in a turn, yes? That is, Conan has a 3 in "manipulation," and can therefore only spend up to three stamina gems on manipulation in a given game turn, if I have the gist. Players spend their time managing stamina, and the state of the game is reflected on the cards.

Personally, I think tracking the state of the game is fine, but I am concerned (not having played the game) that there are a relatively significant number of gameplay states to keep track of.

Compare, for example, to a very simple game like Zombicide. In Zombicide you've got to track exp, up to five card slots (3 passive 2 active), and a very small skill tree. That's it. Very simple and reasonably clean, although the card slots can get a little jumbly.

Compare also to a relatively simple game like Mice and Mystics. Two active cards, three passive cards, 4 attributes modified by cards, and a small number of skills. Apart from items, there's two numbers of things to keep track of: wounds and cheese.

Compare to Super Dungeon Explore where you have up to four cards with a handy location layout to simplify equipment, and you are only tracking wounds and potions.

There's lots of other dungeon crawlers that one could compare to, but those are three good examples, I think. In my view, those three games are ordered in terms of complexity of gameplay and state of game tracking from simplest to most complex, comparatively: Zombicide, Mice and Mystics, Super Dungeon Explore (SDE). Much like Conan, SDE has the added complexity of multiple die types.

Conan seems, in view from afar, to be comparatively more complex, with more and more interrelated game states to track. My concerns are two-fold: First, does this complexity add depth to the game in a proportion satisfying in comparison to the complexity of gameplay? Second, how does this complexity impact speed of play?

Zombicide is a boneheadedly simple game in terms of the mechanics, but it offers a very satisfying depth of gameplay and can be played very quickly. Very small changes to the mechanics, such as swapping in a character with a different skill or altering the layout of the game board, cause comparatively dramatic changes to the way the game plays. There are only three differences between a runner zombie and a walker zombie, for example: Runners activate twice, Runners are below Fatties in ranged combat target priority, and there are fewer Runner miniatures in the box. That's it. Those very few differences nevertheless make Runner zombies a totally different threat than Walker zombies. In short, you get a lot of bang for your buck in terms of Zombicide's complexity. That's good.

In my opinion, SDE can be a little shallow in terms of the depth you get for your complexity. Mice and Mystics is fairly shallow as well, but makes up a lot of ground in overall simplicity of gameplay. My four-year-old can play Mice and Mystics with me, whereas if we played Zombicide, his juvenile decision-making would likely get all of the survivors killed.

From what I have seen with Conan, the basic mechanics of stamina seem to offer plenty of interesting depth, but there's a bunch of complexity otherwise mixed in. Looking in from the outside, so to speak, I have concerns about whether such complexity is necessary, and whether it adds meaningfully to the gameplay experience.

Why care so much about weight, for example?

If the answer is that weight does not mean much, then why bother to have it in the rules? If the answer is that weight is situational, and only important in certain scenarios, why not relegate it to scenario special rules? If the answer is that it is a critical limiting factor to keep characters powered appropriately, why not use a simpler system to limit item use/availability, such as item slots? If the answer is that overall item weight and its distribution throughout party members is an important resource to manage in most scenarios, what does the management of that collective resource add to the gameplay experience?

These questions are not strictly rhetorical, by the way, and I invite you to respond.

I'd say Conan is, in it's essence, a very simple game. The only two game states that need to be tracked are stamina points (the main mechanic) and weight (this doesn't come into play that often, its mostly for scenario objectives and character definition, I'll go into more about that later). When you perform an action, you check to see how many gems you have left to possibly invest, pay them (yes, you are right, characters are limited to a certain number of gems per action per turn, heroes were horribly OP without this), the hero sheet indicates what colour of dice you roll per point, to which you add the ones indicated on your equipment cards.

How does this impact speed? Well, after one or two attacks most people will remember that Conan is a bit of a badass so he get's red dice so that's generally not a problem. Then all you have to do is find the right coloured dice. There's not many of them so unless you have a dice hoarder in the game it should be very easy to just identify them by colour, pick em' up and roll. All in all the mechanic is very fluid and very easy.

Much like Zombicide, swapping out a character has a big impact on how the game plays and there is a small but effective pool of different skills that define them. The enemies are normally fixed for the scenario and most of them, apart from your basic grunts, will have their own skill that will make life tough for the heroes. The difference is, whereas zombicide has a variable spawn of zombies (gettting loads of fatties and walkers is totally different to getting a medium size group of runners), Conan has an actual player controlling them so the outcome is a lot less predictable and generally more immersive. Not to say that it's better mind-you, I liek Zombicide a lot and that mechanic is perfect for that game, this is just something else.

As for younger children, I think all kids should get the opportunity to have Conan carve up a few monsters, however, the stamina management mechanic is a lot more subtle then say M&M's system so it wouldn't suit him as well.

Now for weight. You have to understand the weight mechanic wasn't something we wanted to implement but we had to and, in the end, it worked out really well.

The first reason is scenario objects: The test scenario we've been running for ages now is the Pict village where Conan and chums have to rescue a princess and kill the pict chieftain before escaping. Shevatas (the king of thieves) is one of the characters in this scenario. He has a skill called uncatchable, which means his movement is never obstructed by enemy models or skills. Very quickly a lot of people would use Shevatas to scout out the huts and find the princess (thats great, its what he's good at here) but then they would simply pick her up and sprint out the zone road runner style.



We wanted to stop him doing this (to an extent) so we came up with the weight system. The princess weighs 5, once Shevatas is carrying 5 weight he loses the uncatchable skill. So he's left with two choices, either he carries her and fights his way out (or lets his allies do it) or he drops EVERYTHING, picking her up with both hands and darting his way out as is his right. At this point however you are voluntarily turning your character into a princess delivery system, a bloody great one, but the downside is that you won't be able to do much else unless you go back and pick up your gear.

Secondly it allows us to indirectly infuse each character with an actual sense of individuality and being. There is no "class" system in Conan, everyone is just simply a hero but Shevatas, for example, has very low weight thresholds. It means that if you want to make the most of what makes the king of thieves the king of thieves then you want to favour little equipment and armour (which generally weighs the most). As an example, Shevatas can just about get away with his dagger, a crossbow and a buckler before he starts to lose skills. It wouldn't make sense to see a thief in plate mail darting through hordes of enemies, it wouldn't feel right, it wouldn't feel Conan and creating a real Robert E. Howard experience is what this game is all about! That being said nothing stops you from slapping some full plate, a tower shield and a massive sword on him. Game wise he'll be an ok fighter and fairly resilient but will that make up for what he'll lose (ie mostly everything else), not really.

Conan himself on the other hand has quite high thresholds so he can get away with carrying a lot more equipment before he starts to lose benefits, as befits the mighty barbarian of legend. I say this but the truth is there will be multiple versions of Conan, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Their is a "thief" Conan for example, who will have fairly low thresholds like Shevatas but his skills will mark him out as a bit less mobile but more fighty whilst retaining your standard thief skills.

So as I think you can tell, yes the weight system adds a small layer of complexity to the game but what you actually get back out of it, ie more character and immersion, is well worth the 2mins it takes to explain the rule. Also of note, unlike Zombicide, where you are nigh on constantly searching zones and picking up/swapping out objects. It doesn't come into play that much in Conan. Items are generally found in chests or on certain monsters/bosses so you won't have to "manage" this resource very often.

The only game I play where "weight" it a thing is Shadows of Brimstone, and its really just how much you can be a packmule and carry. It has no other effect on the game. To me thats bag space, and its fitting for a very indepth D&D type game.

For this game, it just seems really lame. I understand your trying to show how its needed but its going to be something that will make me not back it and im sure others aswell.

You said the princess is 5 weight, and if the guy has 5 or more he cant be uncatchable.

You also mentioned how it doesent come into play very often. So why not remove it and say for that mission that if the guy has the princess, he looses uncatchable. Simple. This takes out weight and the numbers but thematically makes sense.

If you need a weight system, make it far more simpler. Conan can hold 12 weight. No more. The fact that every so often you loose movement will really boggle it down more then you think.

Combat system, story telling, and miniatures will sell your game. Weight is something that is just a pain in the butt in about any system.

str00dles1 wrote:
The only game I play where "weight" it a thing is Shadows of Brimstone, and its really just how much you can be a packmule and carry. It has no other effect on the game. To me thats bag space, and its fitting for a very indepth D&D type game.

For this game, it just seems really lame. I understand your trying to show how its needed but its going to be something that will make me not back it and im sure others aswell.

You said the princess is 5 weight, and if the guy has 5 or more he cant be uncatchable.

You also mentioned how it doesent come into play very often. So why not remove it and say for that mission that if the guy has the princess, he looses uncatchable. Simple. This takes out weight and the numbers but thematically makes sense.

If you need a weight system, make it far more simpler. Conan can hold 12 weight. No more. The fact that every so often you loose movement will really boggle it down more then you think.

Combat system, story telling, and miniatures will sell your game. Weight is something that is just a pain in the butt in about any system.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there, I can't really imagine many people seeing an equipment system as a definite reason to write the game off. It is of course your right to be the exception though.

The thing is that it's not just uncatchable that this system helps correct. I used Shevatas as an example because that was genuinely the situation that brought it all about but their are more skills then just movement related ones. Valeria has ambidextrous, how can you fight with two weapons and carry a person? If you're cornered and the only means of escape is jumping over a wide chasm then you're going to have a lot of trouble doing so with a full set of armour and a princess in your arms. We can't just list off all these skills either, it would be a nightmare graphics wise and what would happen if we introduced new character skills later? Or what if you wanted to carry 2 princesses (twins Basil!)? what would happen then?

The weight system fixes a load of issues and ensures that you get a boat load of freedom in your actions but without loosing the immersive and cinematic feel of the game. All that whilst being one of two things you have to keep track of and compared to most games some of us are used to making sure (A+B+C)<Y isn't that hard. It's not even a hard limit either, you can go over Y, you may just have to change up your strategy and expectations if you do, giving you even more choice!>

Thanks WhelpSlayer and Somon S. I am always leery fo plastic production mostly for the odd shrinkages and the examples I have handled personally. I have wanted to explore plastic production for my own products but have always hesitated.....maybe now I will not hesitate. Thanks and best of luck!

Tre, what I will say is that much has been oft promised with PVC, and the production results have frequently failed to live up. Dust miniatures are decent, sure, but I am always leery of folks promising something that has consistently failed to deliver.

Not to rub in salt, but others have claimed to be able to offer a lot with a certain production process that didn't deliver as promised. In this market, we know resin has a very good track record, we know white metal has a good track record, and we know that HIPS has had a good track record. Not so with PVC.

Concerns are justified.

As for the Conan rules, thanks for the in depth reply Jamie. At the end of the day, no game designer is going to make everyone happy, and in my view frank, candid discussion about design philosophy is a good thing, so I appreciate your willingness to discuss the game mechanics.

I will say, however, that stamina is a resource that is used to track many game states. If the heroes did not have separate limits on how much stamina could be dedicated to certain actions, then it would be simpler, and I expect play would be faster. But as you mentioned, this lets heroes dominate by, say, Conan throwing 8 stamina into attacks and 3 into rerolls for those attacks.

You've got to run down problems where you find them, but there is a trade off. It seems that weight was also a layer of complexity added to solve fundamental problems arising from core mechanics and scenario design.

Fair enough, but weight is a piece of annoying bookkeeping. Some players hate that, as the post above indicates. And it is a fair criticism in my opinion. The more you make your players count, add, etc. the more mental effort it takes to play the game.

Without stamina limits on actions, for example, you don't need to count, literally. You just move gems around until they are gone. With stamina limits, you've added lots of counting. It seems small, right? And I hear this response a lot when I talk about game design. Who can't count to 2, or 3? That's not the point though. The point is the mental operation you have to perform over and over and over again. It adds up. Why else do you think you see a potential player writing off the game just on the basis of adding up equipment weight?

Zombicide, for example (it is a good point of comparison as lots of people know the rules and have gameplay experience), requires very little counting. Mostly you count when adding exp, right? And I daresay lots of players would say that moving those sliders is the least enjoyable part of the game. You can glance at your character card and see that it is less than full of cards. A wound card eats up an item slot...fantastic design element as it sits right on your card and doesn't require you to go through a mental calculation. Those things add up.

I like the core mechanics of stamina. It seems fun, fluid, and fairly simple. From what you described, it looks like y'all have had to add a few layers in order to keep the core mechanic balanced and functional in both the short and long term.

How deep is the design process into character and scenario design? Has the system been stress-tested over a wide range of different scenarios, heroes, and equipment? I'm hearing a lot of this Pict Village scenario, and problems that popped up in playing through that scenario. I'm sure lots of work has gone into the system, but I am curious about how robust you have found it.

Hmm. I'll probably end up pledging, but whether it sticks until the end or not will depend on seeing some examples of the finished(unpainted, because painting can hide all sorts of sins) PVC models. I get that there'll be a retail release, but honestly I'd probably not be interested, as I expect you'll end up having a fair few KS-exclusive models(which, knowing my luck, will be the ones I want most ).

Can I ask, will your models be pre-undercoated ala Dust, or just bare plastic? Honestly I'd prefer the latter, as if the models do end up being really good quality I'd want to paint them properly, using my own preferred techniques, so I'd just end up having to strip them anyway.

Many thanks for your posts WhelpSlayer, is really appreciated that someone from the company would take the time to post over here.

Thought I would post on behalf of no doubt the many lurkers who are just silently reading through the info in the thread

This was posted on their facebook page:

Happy new year everybody !
We have a date! Conan on Kickstarter will launch on January 12th, at 1:00 p.m. on the East Coast of the United States (UTC-5 ), 10:00 a.m. on the West Coast (UTC- 8), 6.00 p.m. in the UK (UTC + 00 ) and thus 7:00 p.m. in France (UTC + 1). There will be early birds, so check it out!

Great stuff

So, depending on the early bird offers, looks like Jan 12th is going to be the date of my first KS for 2015..

Early birds... Backing the Kickstarter to get all of the content isn't enough, now you've got to pledge to the Kickstarter early before you lose out.

I get the utility of early bird pledge levels, but it fans that impulse purchase flame. Hopefully it will only be priority fulfillment slots or a few dollars off.

It works though, which is partly the annoying part. I'm going to be checking the project when it launches...

If 'm online anyway there's some incentive to pledge early,

but basically if an EB slot (small extra discount, an extra mini, earlier fulfilment) is all that makes you jump in you don't really want the stuff enough to be backing a KS

(I'll make an exception for really significant limited options, something like KS resin pledge level is something worth going out of your way for, but they are very few and far between)

EB's are just manipulations.

They also tend to be yet another "up yours, bub!" to the Oz/NZ/Asian community, since most companies don't bother to do a second batch at a time convenient for them(asking folk to get up/stay up to 2, 3, 4am is taking the term a bit too seriously, IMO).

BGG has two pages of comments against EB's. Post and tell them that you don't want EB's!

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1294091/launch-date