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 Grimtuff wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Give me a little rage to balance out the fawning obsequiousness any day.

You're saying that a forum dedicated to discussing something, shouldn't be pro-something? You realise on most fan sites if you went around slagging off the product/hobby, you'd get banned right?

False.

Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

Warhammer has alot of fan passion and posterity surrounding it. GW have not been overly kind to their customers for a long time. Of course people are gonna vent about it. GW have no official forums so places like Dakkadakka is where its going to happen.

Even if GW start getting more consumer friendly (which they are going to have to start doing if they want to survive!) people will still moan. It is the internet after all.

KommissarKarl wrote:
Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

So, you see proof proving your point completely wrong and "haha that doesn't count". Interesting.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Give me a little rage to balance out the fawning obsequiousness any day.

You're saying that a forum dedicated to discussing something, shouldn't be pro-something? You realise on most fan sites if you went around slagging off the product/hobby, you'd get banned right?

False.

Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

The only one "slagging off" are the ones like yourself that dismiss people rational critics and complaints as "slagging off" and "hating". The vast, vast majority of critics posted about GW are actually rational and valid and as long as you keep ignoring them instead of offering counter points, you'll keep getting those same critics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:
Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

So, you see proof proving your point completely wrong and "haha that doesn't count". Interesting.

Its their typical way of countering anything, they have 0 counter arguments to make, so they just resort to ad hominem attacks and "la la la I can't hear you".

PhantomViper wrote:
and as long as you keep ignoring them instead of offering counter points, you'll keep getting those same critics.

This is what I find funny. The people who bitch about bitching like to pretend they have some morale high ground, but they are just perpetuating the same thing. Yes, the same "haters" are posting over and over again, but the same "white knights" are coming to the defense over and over as well.

The best way to change the "incessent hating" in to brief constructive criticism is to just ignore it, at most acknowledge it exists, lay down a counter point, then ignore it. It's a 2 way street, people don't just complain about GW for 10 pages, people complain, people defend, people complain, people defend for 10 pages.

 Yonan wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:
Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

So, you see proof proving your point completely wrong and "haha that doesn't count". Interesting.

Well I was so over-awed by your sample size of 1 that I lost the capacity to think rationally.

You also didn't address a single thing I said. I think we're done here eh.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The best way to change the "incessent hating" in to brief constructive criticism is to just ignore it, at most acknowledge it exists, lay down a counter point, then ignore it. It's a 2 way street, people don't just complain about GW for 10 pages, people complain, people defend, people complain, people defend for 10 pages.

Yep Insaniak has been saying the same thing.

KommissarKarl wrote:
Well I was so over-awed by your sample size of 1 that I lost the capacity to think rationally.

You only need a sample size of 1 to prove something exists.

You: "You'd get banned for saying negative stuff elsewhere."
Evidence: "Elsewhere, you don't get banned for saying negative stuff."

KommissarKarl wrote:

Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

That's all you've got? Show me what things PP have down to earn the same amount of contempt that GW justifiably gets? That particular thread is one that is active. You'll see several other "slagging off" threads regarding the need for Mk3, Colossals and various other forum bingo points. The plastics have been a hot button issue ever since the Covergence of Cyriss were released last year due to the horrible quality of the initial casts. PP chime in on these threads (do a search, there are a lot) as this is an issue they are aware of and are obviously looking to fix.

Compare this to GW with Finecast. Bring up any quality issues and you'll either get told "modelling and repairing stuff is part of the hobby" or simply told to leave the store, yes both happened to me. Say ANYTHING bad about GW and it gets shrugged off or you cannot ever directly communicate with the people that can fix it, unlike PP due to GW having no official forums.

But you're not going to take any of this on board... So, yeah.

Never really understood the whole "Beer and pretzels" being a defence for poor rules.

Surely if your game is designed to be played whilst getting steadily intoxicated you should make sure it is streamlined and simplified in its mechanics wherever possible?

Or do GW want drunks arguing over their rules?

 Grimtuff wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

gif

That's all you've got? Show me what things PP have down to earn the same amount of contempt that GW justifiably gets? That particular thread is one that is active. You'll see several other "slagging off" threads regarding the need for Mk3, Colossals and various other forum bingo points. The plastics have been a hot button issue ever since the Covergence of Cyriss were released last year due to the horrible quality of the initial casts. PP chime in on these threads (do a search, there are a lot) as this is an issue they are aware of and are obviously looking to fix.

Compare this to GW with Finecast. Bring up any quality issues and you'll either get told "modelling and repairing stuff is part of the hobby" or simply told to leave the store, yes both happened to me. Say ANYTHING bad about GW and it gets shrugged off or you cannot ever directly communicate with the people that can fix it, unlike PP due to GW having no official forums.

But you're not going to take any of this on board... So, yeah.

You know you're comparing customer services now, not fanbases right? And yeah I'd agree - GW have a huge way to go on customer service, they did used to be better. I'm not sure what went wrong, if it was because they got too big, or too "managerial". But certainly as a niche hobby product, they need to go a lot further communicating with their fanbase.

However I could name any number of companies who are far, far worse than GW, who do not attract anything like the level of hate that GW do. EA games literally release the exact same fething game every single year, for the same high price. Sure people (legitimately) complained about GW releasing a new ruleset only two years after the last one...well EA do that every single year. And it's the exact same game too. Conversely there are great companies like Paradox Interactive who have fantastic customer service, yet still attract an irrational amount of hatred and trolling. I don't think there is a connection between the quality of service a business provides, and the fan-base's treatment of them.

The toxic aspect of this community stems from threads like this where anyone who says something remotely negative is classified as a hater and hand waved away with poor defenses like 'Beer and Pretzels' and 'its a casual game'.

Want the community to improve?

Engage in a discussion without calling people haters and actually read/understand what people are saying. Then construct a counter argument that attacks the points, not the poster.

I don't think there are any haters on these boards. I see people genuinely concerned for a game they play or have played. The only hate I see is from people who can't seem to understand that someone may want a higher quality product for something they otherwise love.

This isn't difficult to understand.

The mods seem to really have their work cut out for them lately....

 Blacksails wrote:
The toxic aspect of this community stems from threads like this where anyone who says something remotely negative is classified as a hater and hand waved away with poor defenses like 'Beer and Pretzels' and 'its a casual game'.

Want the community to improve?

Engage in a discussion without calling people haters and actually read/understand what people are saying. Then construct a counter argument that attacks the points, not the poster.

I don't think there are any haters on these boards. I see people genuinely concerned for a game they play or have played. The only hate I see is from people who can't seem to understand that someone may want a higher quality product for something they otherwise love.

This isn't difficult to understand.

This.

Brace yourself, the ad hominem attacks are coming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Diggory_x wrote:
The mods seem to really have their work cut out for them lately....

How so? No rules are being broken by these "hate" threads.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

It is also a single post - not like the people who made made, and I'm not exaggerating, tens of thousands of posts slagging off gw/40k. You honestly mean to tell me that if I joined the PP forums I'd be allowed to rack up 10,000 posts doing nothing but slagging off PP? Because if so then I may well give that a go

gif

That's all you've got? Show me what things PP have down to earn the same amount of contempt that GW justifiably gets? That particular thread is one that is active. You'll see several other "slagging off" threads regarding the need for Mk3, Colossals and various other forum bingo points. The plastics have been a hot button issue ever since the Covergence of Cyriss were released last year due to the horrible quality of the initial casts. PP chime in on these threads (do a search, there are a lot) as this is an issue they are aware of and are obviously looking to fix.

Compare this to GW with Finecast. Bring up any quality issues and you'll either get told "modelling and repairing stuff is part of the hobby" or simply told to leave the store, yes both happened to me. Say ANYTHING bad about GW and it gets shrugged off or you cannot ever directly communicate with the people that can fix it, unlike PP due to GW having no official forums.

But you're not going to take any of this on board... So, yeah.

You know you're comparing customer services now, not fanbases right? And yeah I'd agree - GW have a huge way to go on customer service, they did used to be better. I'm not sure what went wrong, if it was because they got too big, or too "managerial". But certainly as a niche hobby product, they need to go a lot further communicating with their fanbase.

However I could name any number of companies who are far, far worse than GW, who do not attract anything like the level of hate that GW do. EA games literally release the exact same fething game every single year, for the same high price. Sure people (legitimately) complained about GW releasing a new ruleset only two years after the last one...well EA do that every single year. And it's the exact same game too. Conversely there are great companies like Paradox Interactive who have fantastic customer service, yet still attract an irrational amount of hatred and trolling. I don't think there is a connection between the quality of service a business provides, and the fan-base's treatment of them.

EA attracts a lot of hate. Hell, some people on Gamespot even hated on EA when EA gave millions to Cancer research as apparently they didn't give enough.

So, you do realise that your counter arguments are meant to support your side and not counter it, right?

KommissarKarl wrote:
However I could name any number of companies who are far, far worse than GW, who do not attract anything like the level of hate that GW do. EA games literally release the exact same fething game every single year, for the same high price.

... you realize that EA were voted the worst company in America twice in a row right? Kind of puts a downer on your argument that worse companies than GW don't get criticised as much.

I could paste and/or link some comments of mine criticising EA if you'd like ; p

 Yonan wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:
However I could name any number of companies who are far, far worse than GW, who do not attract anything like the level of hate that GW do. EA games literally release the exact same fething game every single year, for the same high price.

... you realize that EA were voted the worst company in America twice in a row right? Kind of puts a downer on your argument that worse companies than GW don't get criticised as much.

Also, "that" argument again...

There's some company worse out there, so we're not allowed to criticise poor old GW. You know, the whole "Starving kids in Africa" type of argument. Well, we're talking about wargaming on a wargaming forum and GW are by far the most reprehensible company in the wargaming world.

not this gak again.

These threads are boring as hell and will turn out like the previous threads on the same subject.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The toxic aspect of this community stems from threads like this where anyone who says something remotely negative is classified as a hater and hand waved away with poor defenses like 'Beer and Pretzels' and 'its a casual game'.

Want the community to improve?

Engage in a discussion without calling people haters and actually read/understand what people are saying. Then construct a counter argument that attacks the points, not the poster.

I don't think there are any haters on these boards. I see people genuinely concerned for a game they play or have played. The only hate I see is from people who can't seem to understand that someone may want a higher quality product for something they otherwise love.

This isn't difficult to understand.

This.

Brace yourself, the ad hominem attacks are coming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Diggory_x wrote:
The mods seem to really have their work cut out for them lately....

How so? No rules are being broken by these "hate" threads.

Not because of the threads (although they are getting rather repetitive). Its more because some of these posts just seem to devolve into slinging matches rather than actual debates or discussions.

 Grimtuff wrote:
That's all you've got? Show me what things PP have down to earn the same amount of contempt that GW justifiably gets?

Switched to cheapass PVC without reducing prices and sometimes increasing them (basic Cryx Helljack went up 25% in cost when switched to plastic; this was excused by blind rabid fanbois because you got bits for 3 weapon variants - the same people who did not consider extra bits a valid argument in GW's favour)

Made people buy the same model twice (rules on a powerful Circle solo got completely changed in Mk2, then a new model was released with the exact copy of the old model's previous rules)

Axed a "specialist game" in the middle of a release cycle, leaving a large number of fans with half-finished factions and lack of prize support while, to this very day, not showing enough respect to the players to at least give an explanation.

Prima donna, vindictive game developers who take personal offense at criticism. In my specific example, I posted an inappropriate comment about a new model and got suspended for it, fair enough. The next day, I got permabanned. The mod explained that a game developer (PPS_Simon, I believe) put in a personal request to get rid of me).



I'm sorry, but in the last few years PP grew to be big enough to treat its customers with exactly the same kind of contempt GW does. They just haven't been around long enough for the resentment to pile up properly yet. It doesn't help that much of their fanbase are GW converts, and converts are always the most blindly fanatical. Just look at born-again [religion of choice]. Or ex-smokers. Or vegans.

 Yonan wrote:

 Nate668 wrote:
TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW. If you hate 40k because you are a competitive gamer, check out something else (like Warmahordes), like I did. You may find that, like me, in a couple years you will appreciate 40k for what it actually is, instead of hating it for not being what you wish it was. Or you may find that you still hate GW, and if so, perhaps forums that are primarily focused on 40k are not for you.

How does poor balance make 40k casual rather than bad?
How does paying more for less content make 40k casual rather than bad?
How goes ridiculous pricing make 40k casual rather than bad?
How does clunky rule writing make 40k casual rather than bad?

I've found much more casual games in Dreadball after stopping 40k, and see them in Deadzone, X-Wing ang DZC too which I plan to start playing soon. The games still have the same (or more) depth that 40k does, but they're made more casual by being quicker as they're not bogged down by clunky rules, they're cheaper to get into and they already have more players than 40k does around here now. So basically the premise of your argument is entirely wrong - 40k isn't a more casual game, it's just a bad game.

Not complaining won't fix 40k. Complaining has a small chance to and since I (we) have invested a lot of money into it, you're damn straight we'll continue to complain until GW fixes their gak. Did you tell people to shut up about the Xbox One before its launch too? The huge backtracking on the ridiculous features by Microsoft as a result of the complaints are how a company should act when their customers are calling their product gak. Whether or not GW wants to fix their product is largely irrelevant - it's gak, and we're going to call it gak to make sure other people know it's gak and don't 1. waste their money and 2. support anti-customer business practices.

These forums aren't GW forums, they're 40k forums. I love 40k, I "hate" GW and their business practices. I can still discuss the fluff, modeling and PC games here, why would I want to leave?

Poor balance and clunky rules make 40k worse than it could be. Ridiculous pricing and paying more for less makes 40k less accessible. Models that I personally find to be awesome give it some points for me. So do the background of the game, which I have been reading about since I was a child, and the random nature of the rules, which personally help me to care less about the outcome of the game. These things combined, for me, make 40k an alright game that I enjoy from time to time when I don't feel like taking my minature dudes seriously. When I want to take miniature dudes more seriously, I play something else. For you, (and many other people!- myself included, two years ago) the attributes of 40k make it a bad game.

But you're already doing the right thing by not participating in 40k anymore, because that's the only thing you, as an individual who is not affiliated with GW in any way, can do to directly affect the game. Some of you may think that GW reads these forums, and there's a slight possibility that that's true, but we certainly have no evidence to support the idea and I personally doubt they'd bother with a forum that is practically renown at this point for it's toxic 40k community. The next step, which hopefully will come naturally for you, as it did for me, because I think it will make you a happier person, will be to spend less time talking about how gakky 40k is on Dakka and focus instead on things that you actually enjoy. And then maybe someday you'll find that you miss 40k, and you'll come back to it knowing what it is, and not expecting it to be something else, and you'll actually enjoy it.

Or maybe you won't. But Dakka would be a more enjoyable forum for people who are actively involved in 40k if people like you (I do not mean this as an insult) who do not like 40k and do not play 40k did not come here to the 40k section to complain about 40k.

And I realize that the next logical step is for someone to say "you can't tell me what to do, I'll come on Dakka and spew vitriol about 40k if I wanna," to which you are absolutely correct. All I can do is express my own feelings and experiences on the matter, and suggest that you may enjoy your free time more if you spend your energy on things you enjoy instead.

@Kangodo: I'm not telling you that you have to quit the game. I'm telling you that you may find that you enjoy the game more if you take an extended break from it for a while, and I'm also telling you that if you have problems with 40k, and continue to make 40k purchases, you can't expect things to change, because GW probably isn't listening to you complain on Dakka but is certainly looking at its sales figures.

@BlaxicanX: I recognize that 40k has problems, am willing to admit those problems, and enjoy the game anyway. I have absolutely nothing to do with why the game has problems, which instead lies squarely on the shoulders of GW and it's employees. Don't blame the fact that you don't enjoy something on the people who do enjoy it.

Possible cure: Take up golf. Minimal rule changes. One set of necessary game pieces can last you for years. Proven competitive.
Control your costs by playing municipal courses or go for high end resort courses. No need to paint your game pieces, ever.
May even get some exercise swimming after the club you threw in the lake...

The classic statement Haters Gonna Hate is especially true for Dakka Dakka and Warseer.

 ciaotym wrote:
Possible cure: Take up golf. Minimal rule changes. One set of necessary game pieces can last you for years. Proven competitive.
Control your costs by playing municipal courses or go for high end resort courses. No need to paint your game pieces, ever.
May even get some exercise swimming after the club you threw in the lake...

Just wanted to say that I played golf for the first time recently, and I wholeheartedly agree with this.

The difference between "haters" and white knights is that haters usually have a valid reason to level their accusations against GW. White knights simply insist things are fine without looking at the real problem.

I give it six months before Nate668 doubles back again.

 Nate668 wrote:
Or maybe you won't. But Dakka would be a more enjoyable forum for people who are actively involved in 40k if people like you (I do not mean this as an insult) who do not like 40k and do not play 40k did not come here to the 40k section to complain about 40k.

Considering how little some people seem to care about our enjoyment of the hobby - going so far as to insult us, calling us whiners, bitchers and haters in the OP for example - why would we care much about their enjoyment? It's interesting how your suggestion for us to enjoy the game more neatly coincides with what would make it more enjoyable for you - us leaving here.

 Nate668 wrote:
@BlaxicanX: I recognize that 40k has problems, am willing to admit those problems, and enjoy the game anyway. I have absolutely nothing to do with why the game has problems, which instead lies squarely on the shoulders of GW and it's employees. Don't blame the fact that you don't enjoy something on the people who do enjoy it.

That's exactly what's happening though. Your acceptance of what you admit are bad policies from GW makes you an enabler, and ensure not only that it continues but gets worse. We're not saying you should stop if you enjoy it - just that what you're doing is destroying the hobby ; )

My solution. I don't play pick-up games. Since I don't know what broken combo or PoS rule my unknown opponent can use, I just play 40k against one person, an old friend who has been wargamming just as long as myself and with whom I have an unspoken agreement to recognize and not use broken lists/combos. We both laugh off the terribly written rules that were obviously written by drunkards with a poor grasp of the English language. We meet, play a relaxing game while chatting about what's going on in our lives, shake hands then go have a beer. That's the only way that I can ever see 40k as being remotely similar to a "beer and pretzels" game; when you recognize that the company has no care, whatsoever, of producing a quality ruleset and just "forge" your enjoyment (screw the narrative).

I play other games with acquaintances/strangers because shoddily written rules won't be an issue. I'd rather avoid angst that would ruin any potential fun when trying to enjoy a hobby, that's the antithesis of a hobby to me. Some people enjoy angst and it's a big part of their hobby, not for me; however, which is why 40k will forever be played against one opponent.

Why not simply let people hate, if they so obviously enjoy it?

As can see, they would rather hate GW, than play other games (look how much more interest threads like this generate than threads about other games), so it's only testament to GW's power, really. Let 'em do it, I say.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Give me a little rage to balance out the fawning obsequiousness any day.

You're saying that a forum dedicated to discussing something, shouldn't be pro-something? You realise on most fan sites if you went around slagging off the product/hobby, you'd get banned right?

False.

Hahahahahahaha. As if that is anything like the rage that GW receives, seriously. That is constructive feedback about an aspect of their QC...not a 10 page thread of people agreeing with each other than the company are incapable of making a game that works *at all*, that it is "garbage", not to mention the many threads where some newbie asks an innocent question about something, only to receive a faceful of negativity.

That's nowhere near like the rage GW receives because PP doesn't warrant such rage. PP has forums where the designers frequent, they didn't close them down because people weren't happy. GW doesn't get constructive feedback because they don't want constructive feedback, or any feedback at all; they want us to just shut up and buy things.

The fact that GW is the only company to get such vehement hate speaks volumes about the type of company they are, now doesn't it?

The big difference here is that PP Is more likely to listen to feedback, GW pretends "Feedback? What feedback? Everything is great!" with their fingers in their ears. Yes, PP's PVC plastic sucks, and supposedly an upcoming release (the upcoming Convergence of Cyriss Battle Engine) uses a different material that they might move to; that's progress and a company that cares. GW would look at something like the complaints about Finecast, and still use corporate doublespeak about how great it is and you really should just deal with it.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Why not simply let people hate, if they so obviously enjoy it?

As can see, they would rather hate GW, than play other games (look how much more interest threads like this generate than threads about other games), so it's only testament to GW's power, really. Let 'em do it, I say.

Why the hell would we want to hate GW? And we've said repeatedly that we *are* playing other games. *boggle*

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Why not simply let people hate, if they so obviously enjoy it?

As can see, they would rather hate GW, than play other games (look how much more interest threads like this generate than threads about other games), so it's only testament to GW's power, really. Let 'em do it, I say.

I recommend that you actually read what people are typing.

Would help create a better forum.

Beats classifying people as haters and dismissing what they have to say for no reason other than you don't like it.