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I had a heated debate with my brother about using grenades in CC.

The rules are a bit confusing in this area since it first states "Only one type of grenade can be thrown per phase per unit". Then further below it "hints" that grenades are clamped, not thrown in close combat.

I read some older threads in this matter and while there are a few (sane) people stating that only one model may use grandes in CC, there are many more stating that all models with grenades can use them in CC which worries me a bit.

If the latter would be true (which I doubt) would be a huge imbalance issue, since I could easily wreck almost any vehicle in one turn with 10 krak or haywire grenades.

My brother is finally sending a mail to Games Workshop to get a final say in this matter.

There is no limit in close combat. Bomb away with everything you've got.

Hey flodihn, this topic was discussed twice recently in different threads I think.

I found this using the forum search.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600372.page#6970098

The search is a good feature for looking up to see if anyone has asked the same question. It helps you get an instant answer (if present) and saves others from rehashing the topic.

Also, YMDC is a discussion, not the be-all-end-all of 40k rules, so read the point of views and discuss with your brother.

If you've not played 6th Ed, it was possible to use multiple grenades in assault then. Just that 7th Ed had a confusingly worded sentence.


Edit: Whoops found the other one.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599732.page#6918765

 Warbrucey wrote:
There is no limit in close combat. Bomb away with everything you've got.

The wording changed from 6th to 7th.

6th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase". Pg61 of 6th BRB.

7th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase". Pg180 of 7th BRB.

Was their intent to limit grenades in the Assault phase by only allowing one grenade attack? Or does the word thrown mean that restriction only applies to shooting attacks? Is the word 'thrown' just a fluff word that has no meaning on the rule since the key words are 'one grenade', 'unit' and 'per phase'?

GoonBandito wrote:

 Warbrucey wrote:
There is no limit in close combat. Bomb away with everything you've got.

The wording changed from 6th to 7th.

6th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase". Pg61 of 6th BRB.

7th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase". Pg180 of 7th BRB.

Was their intent to limit grenades in the Assault phase by only allowing one grenade attack? Or does the word thrown mean that restriction only applies to shooting attacks? Is the word 'thrown' just a fluff word that has no meaning on the rule since the key words are 'one grenade', 'unit' and 'per phase'?

Wow, that's a pretty huge change... but it seems to be true. That text appears right above where it says "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one
attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses." However, that text doesn't seem to over-rule the wording of what you quoted, which is that only one grenade can be used per unit per phase.

Murrdox wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:

 Warbrucey wrote:
There is no limit in close combat. Bomb away with everything you've got.

The wording changed from 6th to 7th.

6th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase". Pg61 of 6th BRB.

7th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase". Pg180 of 7th BRB.

Was their intent to limit grenades in the Assault phase by only allowing one grenade attack? Or does the word thrown mean that restriction only applies to shooting attacks? Is the word 'thrown' just a fluff word that has no meaning on the rule since the key words are 'one grenade', 'unit' and 'per phase'?

Wow, that's a pretty huge change... but it seems to be true. That text appears right above where it says "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one
attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses." However, that text doesn't seem to over-rule the wording of what you quoted, which is that only one grenade can be used per unit per phase.

(Emphasis mine)

It does not say what you claim (The underlined), read it again.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:

 Warbrucey wrote:
There is no limit in close combat. Bomb away with everything you've got.

The wording changed from 6th to 7th.

6th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase". Pg61 of 6th BRB.

7th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase". Pg180 of 7th BRB.

Was their intent to limit grenades in the Assault phase by only allowing one grenade attack? Or does the word thrown mean that restriction only applies to shooting attacks? Is the word 'thrown' just a fluff word that has no meaning on the rule since the key words are 'one grenade', 'unit' and 'per phase'?

Wow, that's a pretty huge change... but it seems to be true. That text appears right above where it says "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one
attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses." However, that text doesn't seem to over-rule the wording of what you quoted, which is that only one grenade can be used per unit per phase.

(Emphasis mine)

It does not say what you claim (The underlined), read it again.

Doesn't it? Your underlined phrase misses the point of the rule change. They changed the rule to state that only one grenade my be thrown "per phase", not "per shooting phase". "Per Phase" would seem to include the Assault Phase, which would mean that only one grenade could be used by a unit in Assault.

Murrdox wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:

 Warbrucey wrote:
There is no limit in close combat. Bomb away with everything you've got.

The wording changed from 6th to 7th.

6th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase". Pg61 of 6th BRB.

7th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase". Pg180 of 7th BRB.

Was their intent to limit grenades in the Assault phase by only allowing one grenade attack? Or does the word thrown mean that restriction only applies to shooting attacks? Is the word 'thrown' just a fluff word that has no meaning on the rule since the key words are 'one grenade', 'unit' and 'per phase'?

Wow, that's a pretty huge change... but it seems to be true. That text appears right above where it says "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one
attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses." However, that text doesn't seem to over-rule the wording of what you quoted, which is that only one grenade can be used per unit per phase.

(Emphasis mine)

It does not say what you claim (The underlined), read it again.

Doesn't it? Your underlined phrase misses the point of the rule change. They changed the rule to state that only one grenade my be thrown "per phase", not "per shooting phase". "Per Phase" would seem to include the Assault Phase, which would mean that only one grenade could be used by a unit in Assault.

From the threads linked above:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses."

That is the bold text for "VEHICLES, GUN EMPLACEMENTS AND MONSTROUS CREATURES" subheading, and it couldn't be more clear.

You do not need any extra special rules for using Grenades in close combat because the model uses them as melee weapons. The rules then go on to tell you that those models using them only get 1 attack in the assault phase.

Also:

 milkboy wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
Only one model may throw a grenade per unit per phase. The mechanics of throwing a grenade is described in each grenade's entry.

Note that using a grenade in assault is never described as "throwing" it.

This is true as well, because the following paragraphs mention clamping it in assault.

I think it is confusing because the did mention the fight sub phase as an example, before the sentence in bold. If taken as RAW, and grenades in assault are clamped and not thrown, then it goes back to what it was before.

The wording was changed to "one thrown per phase" so no one could argue that everyone can throw a grenade during overwatch.

Murrdox wrote:
Doesn't it? Your underlined phrase misses the point of the rule change. They changed the rule to state that only one grenade my be thrown "per phase", not "per shooting phase". "Per Phase" would seem to include the Assault Phase, which would mean that only one grenade could be used by a unit in Assault.

Only one grenade can be thrown per phase.

You do not throw grenades in the assault phase. (unless you are using them to Overwatch).

Also look at the grenades profile. They list Shooting and assault. They also say that, for Krak Grenades for example, "When a unit armed with krak grenades makes a shooting attack..." for the shooting profile, as opposed to "When they are used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, krak grenades have the following profile"

One says makes a shooting attack and lists a range (Thus thrown) one says used and the range is -. (This is not thrown but used in melee).

Pistols are also used as a close combat weapon, similar to how grenades are used as a melee weapon.

Just pointing out that just because a pistol is used as a close combat weapon doesn't mean that it isn't "shooting" very similar to how just because you use a grenade as a melee weapon doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't "thrown".

Murrdox wrote:
Pistols are also used as a close combat weapon, similar to how grenades are used as a melee weapon.

Just pointing out that just because a pistol is used as a close combat weapon doesn't mean that it isn't "shooting" very similar to how just because you use a grenade as a melee weapon doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't "thrown".

Pistols have a profile for shooting and a profile for melee. Quite similar to grenades.

Neither of the melee profiles indicate that they are thrown or shot...

"If the weapon’s range contains a ‘-’, it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon." (Weapons section, Range sub-section).

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above – the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol’s shooting profile are ignored."(Weapons section, Pistols as close combat weapons sub-section).

The profile given above is that for a basic Close Combat weapon. Range -, Str User, AP- Type Melee.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
Pistols are also used as a close combat weapon, similar to how grenades are used as a melee weapon.

Just pointing out that just because a pistol is used as a close combat weapon doesn't mean that it isn't "shooting" very similar to how just because you use a grenade as a melee weapon doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't "thrown".

Pistols have a profile for shooting and a profile for melee. Quite similar to grenades.

Neither of the melee profiles indicate that they are thrown or shot...

"If the weapon’s range contains a ‘-’, it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon." (Weapons section, Range sub-section).

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above – the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol’s shooting profile are ignored."(Weapons section, Pistols as close combat weapons sub-section).

The profile given above is that for a basic Close Combat weapon. Range -, Str User, AP- Type Melee.

The profile doesn't matter. My only point was that when a pistol is used as a close combat attack, it's being fired. The wielder isn't literally pistol-whipping with it (although sometimes that may certainly be the case!). Similarly just because a grenade is being used as a melee weapon doesn't mean it isn't being "thrown". You yourself say there is nothing in the profile of a grenade to say whether or not it's being "thrown" when it's in melee. So that brings us back to the main question.... when the rule states that a unit may only "throw" one grenade once per phase... does that include using it in melee in Assault?

It seems like a pretty deliberate change in terminology compared to 6th Edition. Personally I think it's up in the air.

Murrdox wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
Pistols are also used as a close combat weapon, similar to how grenades are used as a melee weapon.

Just pointing out that just because a pistol is used as a close combat weapon doesn't mean that it isn't "shooting" very similar to how just because you use a grenade as a melee weapon doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't "thrown".

Pistols have a profile for shooting and a profile for melee. Quite similar to grenades.

Neither of the melee profiles indicate that they are thrown or shot...

"If the weapon’s range contains a ‘-’, it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon." (Weapons section, Range sub-section).

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above – the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol’s shooting profile are ignored."(Weapons section, Pistols as close combat weapons sub-section).

The profile given above is that for a basic Close Combat weapon. Range -, Str User, AP- Type Melee.

The profile doesn't matter. My only point was that when a pistol is used as a close combat attack, it's being fired. The wielder isn't literally pistol-whipping with it (although sometimes that may certainly be the case!). Similarly just because a grenade is being used as a melee weapon doesn't mean it isn't being "thrown". You yourself say there is nothing in the profile of a grenade to say whether or not it's being "thrown" when it's in melee. So that brings us back to the main question.... when the rule states that a unit may only "throw" one grenade once per phase... does that include using it in melee in Assault?

It seems like a pretty deliberate change in terminology compared to 6th Edition. Personally I think it's up in the air.

I assume you have rules to back up the underlined? The pistol is being used as a close combat weapon. It has a range of -. Where do we get that the model is shooting the pistol? (AFAIK, shooting is only done in the shooting phase. Close combat has no shooting that I can find mention of).

As for the OP : I am on the fence, but I leaning towards a poor edit and the likelihood is that the change was not meant to remove the ability to use one grenade per model in combat (as "thrown" does suggest (to me at least) the shooting phase where grenades are mentioned to be thrown).

Murrdox wrote:
The profile doesn't matter.

Incorrect. The profile matters in close combat as that is how you know you have a close combat weapon.

My only point was that when a pistol is used as a close combat attack, it's being fired. The wielder isn't literally pistol-whipping with it (although sometimes that may certainly be the case!).

Citation needed, because I can not find the rules that back up this assertation anywhere in the BRB.

Similarly just because a grenade is being used as a melee weapon doesn't mean it isn't being "thrown".

Actually the CC rules for grenades do not mentiuon them being thrown at all, so they are not thrown. (Permissive ruleset dictates this).

The rules for Krak grenades in the shooting phase do mention being thrown though. (As do all grenades that can be used to make a shooting attack. They all have the word Thrown in their rules unlike the melee rules for grenades).

"When a unit armed with krak grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon." (Grenades section, Krak Grenades sub-section)

as opposed to them being used in assault:

"When they are used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, krak grenades have the following profile..." (Grenades section, Krak Grenades sub-section)

So clearly only shooting attacks with grenades are thrown, CC mentions nothing about throwing the grenade, only using it.

You yourself say there is nothing in the profile of a grenade to say whether or not it's being "thrown" when it's in melee. So that brings us back to the main question.... when the rule states that a unit may only "throw" one grenade once per phase... does that include using it in melee in Assault?

No, because the Melee rules do not tell you that grenades are thrown, so they are not.

It seems like a pretty deliberate change in terminology compared to 6th Edition. Personally I think it's up in the air.

It is not up in the air, the rules are clear on this one.