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 Otto Weston wrote:
Because the Space Wolves slaughtered the Thousand Sons..... and are dicks

This. Damn furries. I really want to like the wolves, i mean they're space vikings and should be the coolest thing ever, but i have yet to read a good depiction of them. I too finished thousand sons and was like "wow, what hypocritical ignorant dickbags, i hope fenris gets bombed"

In saying that, their codex does indeed make for a good khorne list, maybe they should just admit they love khorne and join team key-yoss.

pax_imperialis wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Because the Space Wolves slaughtered the Thousand Sons..... and are dicks

This. Damn furries. I really want to like the wolves, i mean they're space vikings and should be the coolest thing ever, but i have yet to read a good depiction of them. I too finished thousand sons and was like "wow, what hypocritical ignorant dickbags, i hope fenris gets bombed"

In saying that, their codex does indeed make for a good khorne list, maybe they should just admit they love khorne and join team key-yoss.

Fenris has been attacked by many factions, even the Grey Knights and Inquisition. Logan Grimnar personally decapitated the inquisitor in charge of the attack.


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Plus if you're a heretic you deserve everything they can give you.

Random Dude wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Because the Space Wolves slaughtered the Thousand Sons..... and are dicks

This. Damn furries. I really want to like the wolves, i mean they're space vikings and should be the coolest thing ever, but i have yet to read a good depiction of them. I too finished thousand sons and was like "wow, what hypocritical ignorant dickbags, i hope fenris gets bombed"

In saying that, their codex does indeed make for a good khorne list, maybe they should just admit they love khorne and join team key-yoss.

Fenris has been attacked by many factions, even the Grey Knights and Inquisition. Logan Grimnar personally decapitated the inquisitor in charge of the attack.


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Plus if you're a heretic you deserve everything they can give you.

Fenris being one of the few planets with epic level plot armor considering all things.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fenris being one of the few planets with epic level plot armor considering all things.

Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).

On top of that, the Wolves once had the possibility of seeding multiple Foundings and establishing a realm like Ultramar, and lost that potential. They are one Chapter with no successful Second or subsequent Foundings. The brotherhood and support available to Ultramarines, Blood Angels, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, or heck, even Dark Angels, isn't available to them.

I mean, I really like the Wolves, and I think that they are cool, but I don't see them as being presented as 'too cool to fail'. Well, not any more than any other Space Marines in their own novels. Uriel Ventris kicks ten kinds of ass in his own book, and so do the Iron Snakes, etc.


Honestly, considering the attention that they got last time (Thunderwolves? ), I'm hoping for some benevolent neglect. If the only thing that GW can think of for the Sons of Russ is "Wolfy McWolverson riding a wolf", I can wait for attention. The wolves of Fenris were supposed to be insanely dangerous, and "tamed" by only a few. There's suggestions that those wolves are in fact, genetically devolved Space Wolves, in several of the novels. So, you take your monstrously deformed former brother, saddle him, and ride him into battle--that seems respectful.

The Salamanders don't ride Salamanders into battle. The Blood Angels don't ride vampire bats. The Raven Guard don't ride giant ravens. But the Space Wolves...sigh.*

*Having said that, the models are incredible sculpts and really gorgeous. Plus, they are very powerful. I totally understand why people buy them and use them, but I still wish I could have prevented that whole release.

As a SOB player, I find this thread amusing.
Would you rather keep your current codex or get a 'Nid style dex that takes away a lot of your options and doesn't address any of its needs?

Da Butcha wrote:


Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).

Yes, epic-level plot armour. Because somehow, it has survived all that, despite only having a single defensible position on the entire planet.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:


Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).

Yes, epic-level plot armour. Because somehow, it has survived all that, despite only having a single defensible position on the entire planet.

I love Space Wolves, but even I have to side with the Plot Armor side.
"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of mankind." - Patton.

What's most impressive is that even unprepared (one company guarding a planet) they managed to fight off a massive thousand sons fleet designed for the sole purpose of destroying fenris. Then there's the whole deal where Bjorn the Fell-Handed took out Magnus.


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Da Butcha wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fenris being one of the few planets with epic level plot armor considering all things.

On top of that, the Wolves once had the possibility of seeding multiple Foundings and establishing a realm like Ultramar, and lost that potential. They are one Chapter with no successful Second or subsequent Foundings. The brotherhood and support available to Ultramarines, Blood Angels, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, or heck, even Dark Angels, isn't available to them.
.

Since they split only once, their chapter is in the 5000-6000 range which is far more powerful than the standard 1000.

Since they split only once, their chapter is in the 5000-6000 range which is far more powerful than the standard 1000.

Not even close, their numbers are more closer to 1500 as listed by the Great Companies in the 5th edition book. (The second largest company is near 200, so it's easier to gauge where their numbers are at)

Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).

As mentioned by the others, it pretty much survived what would kill Several Sectors, including several thousand of SoB, IG, Inquisition, and the like.

And I'll be honest, the fact that the wolves have a character that scares a Daemon Primarch because he managed to poke him in the eye, some NORMAL MARINE, who scares a DAEMON PRIMARCH who can SHATTER TITANS with his BRAIN, Is still stupid.

Space Wolves have plot armor that no other group can match.

Yeah, SW have strange plot armour for some reason, as someone who likes SW I don't really like that aspect of them. They are also good guys in a game that has no good guys which I think annoys a lot of people. It doesn't really bother me that they're the good guys, but they possibly weren't the best chapter to fill that role.

I like Space Wolves because the norse background, the wolves and also that they don't fit the typical hyper-religious Imperial thing. Though I don't like the stupid over the top Wolf things (like TWC and how everything is wolfy mc wolf wolf).

No. I'm sorry but no. Space Wolves are anything but neglected. And yes, they have ridiculous plot armor.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.

I see you did not play 6th edition.

I see you've never played Space Wolves.

Space Wolves had arguably the best libarian in the game, the best psychic defense in the game and still have have the best tactical squad in the game.

Yet they remained mid tier at best, you need a few more games under your belt son.

Mid-tier!?!?! Whaaat? Games Workshop must really hate them if they were mid-tier in 6th edition! Why, that's the tier that contains:

Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Grey Knights, Orks- nearly every army in the game! Clearly GW has been neglecting Space Wolves.

You either don't know what "mid-tier" means, or you don't know what "neglected" means.

Pick one.

Perhaps not so neglected


http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/07/40k-breaking-white-dwarf-24-and-7th.html


If this is true..

ZebioLizard2 wrote:And I'll be honest, the fact that the wolves have a character that scares a Daemon Primarch because he managed to poke him in the eye, some NORMAL MARINE, who scares a DAEMON PRIMARCH who can SHATTER TITANS with his BRAIN, Is still stupid.

To be fair, that depends a lot on how tough you think Primarchs and Daemon Primarchs "really" are. In GW's original fluff, Horus almost got shot by some random infantryman, and their TT Angron is killable by anyone, too. Maybe that SW just rolled well got lucky?
It's the first time I'm hearing about this, so if anyone would be willing to fill me in on the details of that incident ...

Agreed about all the invasions, though. Though what bothers me more than the resilience of the Fang is that all the internal conflict doesn't really seem to have any consequences - it's as if the plot armour extends to politics, too.

[quote=
It's the first time I'm hearing about this, so if anyone would be willing to fill me in on the details of that incident ...
You could read The Battle of the Fang by Chris Wraight.
.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You either don't know what "mid-tier" means, or you don't know what "neglected" means.

Pick one.

Wait, you can't be mid tier and neglected? Isn't half the problem with SW in 6th that they weren't terribly well balanced because of how they were neglected and their rules not brought in line with the new edition, creating some overpowered units alongside some pretty sub-par units?

Random Dude wrote:You could read The Battle of the Fang by Chris Wraight.

Oh.

For some reason, my interest just dropped rapidly. But thanks for clearing that up.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You either don't know what "mid-tier" means, or you don't know what "neglected" means.

Pick one.

Wait, you can't be mid tier and neglected? Isn't half the problem with SW in 6th that they weren't terribly well balanced because of how they were neglected and their rules not brought in line with the new edition, creating some overpowered units alongside some pretty sub-par units?

If you want to see an example of a "neglected codex", look no further than the Blood Angels and Sisters of Battle, and the Black Templars (before and after getting rolled into SM). Those are obviously "neglected" codices. Space Wolves were one of the best codices during its release, and then took a down-shift in power level to mid-tier during 6th, placing it within the same bank as 80% of all the other codices. Even as a mere "mid-tier" codex, though, it still boasted thee best psychic defense in the game and has the best default troops choice out of all the Space Marine armies. That is not the definition of a "neglected" codex.

The problems with Space Wolves is a result of edition changes (which most codices suffer from eventually) and many Space Marine units just being trash. Look at the vanilla SM codex. It's considered by many to be one of the better made codices of 6th (insofar as balance if not power-level), but what competitive units did it have in 6th? People take Chapter master beatsticks or Tigurius, minimal troops or bikes and centurions. That's about it.

"A few great things among a sea of crap" isn't a Space Wolf problem, it's a Space Marine problem (including Chaos Marines), and it has been for a long time.

Looking at recent army winning percentage charts for 7th both Space Marines and Tyranids have made large jumps.

 Lynata wrote:

Random Dude wrote:You could read The Battle of the Fang by Chris Wraight.

Oh.

For some reason, my interest just dropped rapidly. But thanks for clearing that up.

Pretty much that, generally it's just plain insulting towards Thousand Sons.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Random Dude wrote:You could read The Battle of the Fang by Chris Wraight.

Oh.

For some reason, my interest just dropped rapidly. But thanks for clearing that up.

Pretty much that, generally it's just plain insulting towards Thousand Sons.

Oh god, the stereotypical evil bad guy hamminess, the failure of that assault, the waste in lives, the level of derpitude of Magnus

Random Dude wrote:
Looking at recent army winning percentage charts for 7th both Space Marines and Tyranids have made large jumps.

What I'm hoping for is that 7th edition's (seeming) emphasis on troops will revitalize the armies. Space Marines having gak troops has long been a thorn in their side, but being able to have potentially twelve objective-secured units on the table and objective-secured drop-pods is quite a boon for scoring objective points.

Tyranids are in a similar boat. They can take a ton o' troops. Now that might actually be worth while.

Best timing for a thread ever lol

Feeling neglected still OP?

The Space Wolves dataslate (or whatever you want to call it) could very well end up being dog gak.

As well their codex.

So... eh.

 BlaxicanX wrote:


If you want to see an example of a "neglected codex", look no further than the Blood Angels and Sisters of Battle, and the Black Templars (before and after getting rolled into SM). Those are obviously "neglected" codices. Space Wolves were one of the best codices during its release, and then took a down-shift in power level to mid-tier during 6th, placing it within the same bank as 80% of all the other codices. Even as a mere "mid-tier" codex, though, it still boasted thee best psychic defense in the game and has the best default troops choice out of all the Space Marine armies. That is not the definition of a "neglected" codex.

BA and GK were released after the SW, and I'd argue that for the rule set that they were released in both were better than SW. Both armies were just as brutal and just as over powered as anything SW had to offer. GK even remained so during 6th.

The problems with Space Wolves is a result of edition changes (which most codices suffer from eventually) and many Space Marine units just being trash. Look at the vanilla SM codex. It's considered by many to be one of the better made codices of 6th (insofar as balance if not power-level), but what competitive units did it have in 6th? People take Chapter master beatsticks or Tigurius, minimal troops or bikes and centurions. That's about it.

"A few great things among a sea of crap" isn't a Space Wolf problem, it's a Space Marine problem (including Chaos Marines), and it has been for a long time.

This about sums it all up. 6th and 7th edition have done a huge disservice on melee type armies and add into the ability for some of the newer codexs to just make 3+ armor saves look like 6+ and you have the crux of the SW/SM/BA problem.

As for SW plot armor, yup, we have it in spades. However, has anyone actually read the new SM fluff. All astarties have gigantic amounts of plot armor. Each chapter has been granted with stupidly high levels of accomplishment and moxie. The vast majority of it comes from trying to make something so bad ass that they make a mockery of anything else that might even oppose them. Once its been proven that you can lift a bus over your head, anything less than a freight train next would seem unimpressive and mundane. GW has really backed themselves into a corner with SM fluff. The only place to go is the even more ridiculously fantastic and heaven help what ever chapter gets to be the main character.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And I'll be honest, the fact that the wolves have a character that scares a Daemon Primarch because he managed to poke him in the eye, some NORMAL MARINE, who scares a DAEMON PRIMARCH who can SHATTER TITANS with his BRAIN, Is still stupid.

If he poked him in the eye with a stick, sure. At least he used a weapon that was gifted to Russ by the Emperor himself. That's going to do a number on anyone daemon-primarch or not.

Space wolves are an imperial army and they have 3+ armor save.

It's like you are complaing that santa hasn't preordered you the latest iphone even though you have been suffering with the older model for a week now.

Last I checked wolves were still pretty good. They can get really good psychic defense and have power armor. They are a good assault-oriented army that can still take part in the psychic and shooting phase.

Their fluff is a bit over the top. Their primarch was raised by a mutated-human-turned-into-a-massive-wolf, then he was turned into a warrior prince who started a golden age on the craphole of a planet he landed on. Leman Russ was also the only primarch who kicked the emperor's butt at everything and the emprah had to punch him with a powerfist so he could pretend he had bested him. Russ then joined the great crusade, created the most feral space marine chapter who were then used as the executioners of other marines. There's a tank named after their primarch and nowadays they are wolf-fetishists who, despite the existence of the minotaurs chapter, still maintain they are the best at killing other marines. Oh but they brood, too. For you see, their gene-seed is unstable due to the mutating gene that was given to the locals of Fenris so they're all alone because they can't have chapters. And despite their whole norse theme, they are apparently the only good guys in the entire setting. Y'know, except for proclaiming themselves as the emperor's executioners BEFORE the heresy. Ignore that, they're the good guys!

Ah, rant over.

As for not wanting to be put into the main SM book... How is it that every wolf player I know hates the TWC but uses it as one of the reasons they can't be bundled together? That doesn't make sense to me.

Last time you checked wasn't very recent, and your understanding of the way the chapter changed between 30k and 40k is woefully inadequate.

Wolves actually have worse psychic defense than their codex brethren. Rune Priests give up the ability to protect units they aren't part of in exchange for mimicking the function of Adamantium Will.

As for the background, let me clear some things up. The VIth Legion, who followed Russ during the Great Crusade and the Age of Darkness, have almost nothing in common with their descendants. Russ was a belligerent jerk, tasked by the Emperor with being the one to turn his axe on his brethren when ordered. They were brutal, callous, oblivious to concerns of collateral damage, and totally fixated on the obliteration of their objectives. They weren't good guys at all. They killed every living thing on Prospero when ordered. They left nothing in their wake but ashes and silence when a world refused to kneel to the Emperor.

Flash forward ten thousand years and you have a chapter that is obsessed with adhering to the most superficial of the old Legion traditions, don't have any real comprehension of the deeper ones, and refuse to recognize the authority of those who rule in the Emperor's stead. They set aside their task of being willing to attack their brethren when the Heresy made fighting another legion commonplace, and haven't picked it up again since. Instead, they're obsessed with an ideal of what the galaxy is supposed to be like, and are willing to fight and die for an ideal that was a lie when it was first given voice and remains a lie 10,000 years later.

And you need to meet more Wolf players. Most of us hate thunderwolves. I've been hoping the VIth would get rolled into the Space Marine codex since 4th edition since I'd rather see a real Sisters release, a return of Squats, a real AdMech army, and another xenos army than get more Space Marines.

 Mumblez wrote:
As for not wanting to be put into the main SM book... How is it that every wolf player I know hates the TWC but uses it as one of the reasons they can't be bundled together? That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't like TWC but it's still a reason not to put them in the SM codex. Even though I hate them, GW should never go lightly about removing any unit from any army, especially ones that have models for. Even if I wanted them gone I don't see GW removing the rules for a unit that has such recent models (and though they're absurd, they are pretty nice models, I'm using singular Thunderwolves to represent 2 wolves pulling my Goblin Chariots in WHFB).