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Hello,

New on here so be nice lol!

Been out of all things warhammer for about 6 years.. Getting back into it now because got the bug back.

My main question is how much of a rule shock am I in for?

Secondly, opinions on if my Black Templars are a viable force in 6th edition? Read a few mixed views on this.

Cheers all!

TC

Same crap as before. Same complaints as before. Just much more expensive now.

Also there is electronic versions of the books now. Love the iPad interactive versions. The tablet versions don't have them, just poor formatting from what I read others complaining about.

Black Templar and now put in with the Space Marine codex. How they play, no idea, I don't play no more so can't say how fun 7th edition is. 7th edition just came out 2 years after 6th.

Now you can basically mix and match armies now with certain restrictions.

I've noticed the price, a tactical squad has gone up a fair bit from what I remember!

Noticed the E-books too! Good idea but I prefer the good old fashioned paper lol.

It's gonna take me a while to get into the swing of these new rules I think.. Over watch worries my assault based intentions to be honest..

There's a distinctly shooty bent to the game these days. Assault armies are still workable, but best left to the specialists (daemons mainly right now)

Generalists like Marines will struggle to consistently win with an assault focus, but it isn't impossible. I'd suggest a rounded list with a slant towards assault might be the way to go with BTs.

But then, you can get objective secured Land Raiders in an edition which has done a lot to make AV14 more durable than ever, so hordes of Marines pouring out of rolling bunkers to punch people in the nards might just be a viable approach!

Ouch. You said the Assault rule. Assault was nerfed in 6th editon and nerfed more in 7th. You will not be enjoying 40K much if you plan on assaulting a lot.

Alas going to a local and starting a game with a stranger is perilous these days and not much fun...
The chances of them having a WAAC army that spams or just has stupid deathstars without and ounce if sense nevertheless fluff means playing a tournament or random game is dead for me in 6th onwards..
About the only way your going to have fun with your army is surround yourself with like minded people who will bend the rules and armies to suit the fun not the win...

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
Alas going to a local and starting a game with a stranger is perilous these days and not much fun...
The chances of them having a WAAC army that spams or just has stupid deathstars without and ounce if sense nevertheless fluff means playing a tournament or random game is dead for me in 6th onwards..
About the only way your going to have fun with your army is surround yourself with like minded people who will bend the rules and armies to suit the fun not the win...

Or you drop the condescending tone that asserts casual gamers like yourself are better than competitive gamers, labeling competitive gamers as WAAC is rude. Competitive players are not the bad guys, casual gamers are not superior. The opposite argument would be just as viable about whiney casual gamers that still expect to win despite weak lists, etc... Any argument that is condescending to the opposing viewpoint is a bad argument.


What is important is discussing your expectations and intentions with a potential opponent. Make sure you are playing the same game and you greatly improve your odds of you and your opponent enjoying yourselves. That is what is most important, mutual agreed expectations and cooperative play which can be at any level from ultra casual and fluffy to ultra competitive. Neither play style is superior to the other and there are many gradients in between.

Pick another game. Please I beg you...

Welcome back... 40K is a ton of fun right now.

Black Templars are not considered a top tier army at the moment, if that sort of thing matters to you, but marines in general are still quite good.

My blood angels have had some new life with the 7th ed rulebook.

It depends on where you play and with whom. If you have a bunch of friends that you get along with, 40k will be a ton of fun...but it might be cheaper to collect gold coins.

If you're looking to play strangers at pick up games...or competitions, then you should look at other games with tighter rules and cheaper buy ins.

Basically, I'd point you to Warmachine, Infinity, Malifuax, Bolt Action, Dust, etc etc.

 Zagman wrote:

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
Alas going to a local and starting a game with a stranger is perilous these days and not much fun...
The chances of them having a WAAC army that spams or just has stupid deathstars without and ounce if sense nevertheless fluff means playing a tournament or random game is dead for me in 6th onwards..
About the only way your going to have fun with your army is surround yourself with like minded people who will bend the rules and armies to suit the fun not the win...

Or you drop the condescending tone that asserts casual gamers like yourself are better than competitive gamers, labeling competitive gamers as WAAC is rude. Competitive players are not the bad guys, casual gamers are not superior. The opposite argument would be just as viable about whiney casual gamers that still expect to win despite weak lists, etc... Any argument that is condescending to the opposing viewpoint is a bad argument.


What is important is discussing your expectations and intentions with a potential opponent. Make sure you are playing the same game and you greatly improve your odds of you and your opponent enjoying yourselves. That is what is most important, mutual agreed expectations and cooperative play which can be at any level from ultra casual and fluffy to ultra competitive. Neither play style is superior to the other and there are many gradients in between.

Ok that was a bit unjustified.. Instead of using a condescending tone and insulting me you could just have posted the second paragraph for your argument.. All you really did is blow your own completely legitimate argument to pieces by enforcing an Us/Them insulting rage mentality off the bat.. That's not going to win new players into the game... BUT by all means reply with calling me whiney about being whiney again..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record despite your over exaggeration of my character, I consider WAAC and competition players to be 2 different entities.. And didn't actually suggest anything towards nor comment on the later..
And I never expect to win.. I expect to have fun

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
Alas going to a local and starting a game with a stranger is perilous these days and not much fun...
The chances of them having a WAAC army that spams or just has stupid deathstars without and ounce if sense nevertheless fluff means playing a tournament or random game is dead for me in 6th onwards..
About the only way your going to have fun with your army is surround yourself with like minded people who will bend the rules and armies to suit the fun not the win...

Or you drop the condescending tone that asserts casual gamers like yourself are better than competitive gamers, labeling competitive gamers as WAAC is rude. Competitive players are not the bad guys, casual gamers are not superior. The opposite argument would be just as viable about whiney casual gamers that still expect to win despite weak lists, etc... Any argument that is condescending to the opposing viewpoint is a bad argument.


What is important is discussing your expectations and intentions with a potential opponent. Make sure you are playing the same game and you greatly improve your odds of you and your opponent enjoying yourselves. That is what is most important, mutual agreed expectations and cooperative play which can be at any level from ultra casual and fluffy to ultra competitive. Neither play style is superior to the other and there are many gradients in between.

Ok that was a bit unjustified.. Instead of using a condescending tone and insulting me you could just have posted the second paragraph for your argument.. All you really did is blow your own completely legitimate argument to pieces by enforcing an Us/Them insulting rage mentality off the bat.. That's not going to win new players into the game... BUT by all means reply with calling me whiney about being whiney again..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record despite your over exaggeration of my character, I consider WAAC and competition players to be 2 different entities.. And didn't actually suggest anything towards nor comment on the later..
And I never expect to win.. I expect to have fun

No, you definitely asserted "your" style of 40k as superior to others. That was a problem that needed to be addressed and I chose to do so directly and honestly. You were insulting and pretentious. I supplied an example of an equally bad opposing viewpoint, one that I do not share. My feelings on the subject were supplied in the 2nd paragraph.

You seem to be reinforcing this us/them mentality while I have advocated clear and communicated expectations to maximize enjoyment of the hobby despite your competitive/casual inclinations. Please, explain again how I am the bad guy here. Defending your original position and claiming the moral high ground is kind of ridiculous. I invite you to apologize for your behavior.

I am fairly certain that my viewpoint is what is needed to bring new people into the hobby, and not drive current ones away. Clear and communicated expectations as to the type of game players are expecting.

You would like me explain and justify myself?
Here's an interesting twist..
No.. Your obviously argumentative.. Not worth my time..

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
You would like me explain and justify myself?
Here's an interesting twist..
No.. Your obviously argumentative.. Not worth my time..

Fair enough. I agree, you stepping out of the argument and possible the thread is the best thing as it has derailed the thread away from the OPs intentions.


Speaking of which, the reason I began commenting on this thread..
OP, you are in for a bit of a rules shock, things are quite different from 5th. Some things are better, some worse. Personally, I'm not a fan of the Propagation of Super Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures into normal games of 40k. Flyers and flying Monsterous Creatures are now prominent and will require a change in tactics and mentality. Wound allocation is much much better than 5th. The edition as a whole favors shooting, assault as a main strategy is difficult, but can be viable. Psykers are wildy different.

Overalls I found 5th much better than 4th, 6th slightly better but very different than 5th with major problems including Deathstars and Battle Brothers, and 7th the best yet barring SHs and GCs which is yet to truly be felt.

As to your Black Templars, rejoice, there been incorporated into the main Space Marine Codex, which means access to a well balanced and well made codex, tons of options, competitive builds, and frequent updates. BT may not be the most competitive Chapter a Tactics, not by a long shot, but they are more viable than ever before and you can always runs "Counts As" using Allies for BY specific units etc.

Welcome back into the fold!

To the op, welcome to Dakka "General"... ^^ it's pretty much like this all the time lol.

Play nice children....

To the OP - see if there is someone that will let you play their army before coming back into the game.

See if you like it first.

There are a fair number of folks that have well justified problems with the 7th edition rules.

There are also folks that are having fun with the new rules.

I will admit that I am in the first camp - but when it comes down to it, whether you like a game or not is your decision.

But playing the game first can help you make an informed decision - and if nothing else, a guy that will let you try his army is more likely than not going to be a fun opponent.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Play nice children....

To the OP - see if there is someone that will let you play their army before coming back into the game.

See if you like it first.

There are a fair number of folks that have well justified problems with the 7th edition rules.

There are also folks that are having fun with the new rules.

I will admit that I am in the first camp - but when it comes down to it, whether you like a game or not is your decision.

But playing the game first can help you make an informed decision - and if nothing else, a guy that will let you try his army is more likely than not going to be a fun opponent.

The Auld Grump

I'm in the second camp, but I couldn't agree more with this reasonable approach.

craddock92 wrote:
Hello,

Been out of all things warhammer for about 6 years.. Getting back into it now because got the bug back.

My main question is how much of a rule shock am I in for?

TC

Hello.

I've just got back into 40k after over a decade away from Games Workshop. Most of the core elements I remembered from 2nd edition are still at the heart of it all.

Don't worry too much about overwatch. Remember that you can shot and then charge the same unit. That unit can then overwatch (once per turn) and they need 6's to hit. So that's 1-in-6 models of that unit hitting. You'll lose a model at most (unless it's a blob of 30 Orks with rapid fire, than maybe two). The psychological affect of overwatch seems to be the biggest enemy. What you do need to do is follow the setup and terrain rules. This ensures you at least get the option of assault and varying mission types to avoid set army lists.. As others have said, it has certainly leaned further towards shooting rather than assault over the editions.

Do you have friends starting/could you get a friend to start as well? Playing with friends is much better. You could go halves on the rulebook and start initial 500 point games to learn the ropes.

If you're looking to save some money, buying badly painted models on eBay and stripping them can be worthwhile. Depends upon your personal cost vs time balance.

Cheers for the response everyone!

I like to think I play for fun, but then I find myself getting quite competitive..

Couple of old friends are still in the hobby and my older brother has a huge daemon army so hopefully can have a few fun games to get back into the swing.

Thinking of starting afresh and collecting IF. Although I'm going to see how my BT force fairs.

craddock92 wrote:
Hello,

New on here so be nice lol!

Been out of all things warhammer for about 6 years.. Getting back into it now because got the bug back.

My main question is how much of a rule shock am I in for?

Secondly, opinions on if my Black Templars are a viable force in 6th edition? Read a few mixed views on this.

Cheers all!

TC

Some things will take getting use to, such the way psychic powers work now, allies etc. However, black templar now are part of the space marine codex and have access to all sorts of toys and options they didn't have before. Your meta will be a deciding factor in how effect certain choices will be though.

Played in my first game since coming back.. Wrote up my army list using the new codex and felt pretty good..

Game was against Tau so though I had a decent chance and truth be told... I got slaughtered, it was a massacre of epic proportions. The new system hates my mechanised combat units. It just hated me getting near combat full stop. Also the Emperors champion is about as much good as a piece of bread in this new codex. He was murdered by kroot.. So much for the old CC monster he once was haha!

craddock92 wrote:
Played in my first game since coming back.. Wrote up my army list using the new codex and felt pretty good..

Game was against Tau so though I had a decent chance and truth be told... I got slaughtered, it was a massacre of epic proportions. The new system hates my mechanised combat units. It just hated me getting near combat full stop. Also the Emperors champion is about as much good as a piece of bread in this new codex. He was murdered by kroot.. So much for the old CC monster he once was haha!

I am an old fan of BT as well and was playing them up until the 6th SM codex and I can tell you, it doesn't get better. There is literally no reason to play BT anymore except for liking their color scheme. Their IC's are terrible as you may have noticed by now, the EC is a sad, sad shell of an IC, Grimaldus is an extremely overpriced Chaplin in an edition where Chaplins aren't that great, and Helbrecht is the best of the bunch but again he is so much worse than a custom captain that it really isn't worth it. The best thing BT have going for them is objective secured Land Raiders and 5 man Las/Plas Crusader squads. That's right, the best way to play BT is to run them as shooty as possible and even then other Chapter Tactics are just better in everway.

Don't let people fool you, the worst thing that happened to BT is to role them into the SM codex. It took away all of their flavor and assault based special rules and gave them...more shooty options. From a competitive stand point, you can build a more viable list solely because you have access to so many shooty options. From a fluff and assault stand point BT may as well not even exist, their options are limited and they have the worst chapter tactics in the codex with substandard ICs.

BUT, as people have said, if you are playing with like minded people and just having fun you can have a decent amount of fun with them. Playing against Tau with anything but a shooty list or an abusive list, read Screamstar, is going to net you a loss ESPECIALLY with assault based MEQ.

I posted this on another thread from another person looking at returning, it's likely relevant here as well:

PROS
* Still ubiquitous and fairly popular (YMMV in your meta), still rather well known and it's likely people play
* Good models
* Great lore
* Can be fun if you play with a like-minded group who want to have a good time and not necessarily win.

CONS
* Prices are terrible for value, and continually get worse; a $50 Codex generally requires a $50 supplement to restore things that were removed and there's dataslates that do the same
* Random charts everywhere in the name of "narrative" gaming, when all they really do is add needless complexity. Things like the Maelstrom Missions/Objective Cards can range from interesting to screwing you over because you picked a bad hand
* Zero care to balance of any kind, even within armies. Pick a wrong unit and you're more likely to lose a game based just on that fact; you are often punished for picking a unit that you like the looks/fluff for over a unit that plays better on the table.
* Requires a lot of discussion with your opponent prior to a game; fine if you're in an established group, not that fine if you play at a FLGS on "40k Night"
* Rules are often poorly worded and left up to interpretation; not always a big deal (you can usually figure out what the intent is) but can be exploited and/or cause rules disputes if someone disagrees.
* GW's business practices overall reflect badly on the company.

I'll add to the above the following:

* Assault has been nerfed to hell, and shooting dominates. Assault armies are basically dead in the water
* Things like Unbound (quite literally "Use any model you have") open the floodgates to fighting all manner of nonsense tossed together.

My advice, as another out of the loop veteran (1996-2001): Unless you have an established group where people can restrain themselves, stay away. The game is a mess right now, and looks to stay that way because GW has no real idea what they're doing and doesn't care to fix any issues as long as you buy the new shinies. You can still have fun with it, but IMO It's an uphill fight and at any time it can come crashing down. If you mostly play pickup games you can either get trounced by some jerk bringing an Unbound army with all the best stuff, or have an enjoyable game against a fluffy army. It's almost literally a crap shoot.

I don't think BT Chapter Tactics are abysmal. Crusader Squads are a nice unit in themselves, taking the versatility of the Tactical Squad and adding to it further, and only BT get access to them. Furthermore, being able to close with the enemy faster is always good, and Crusader does that. The challenge bonuses are also nice.

OP: Don't be put off by your experience, Tau are a hard match for BT but in general most armies won't be as tough to crack. Keep at it!

From what I've learnt are -
1/ Don't try and kill a riptide.
2/ The EC can no longer hold up big squads
3/ Don't put the EC in my army list at all.
4/ Chaplains are a shadow of themselves.

Worst thing about it was, the chap new it was my first game back and still pulled out all the stops to beat me. (i.e Giving me literally a minute or two to check rules that I was unsure of.)

Got a match against Daemons later on, rejigged my list a bit, so let's see how it gets on...

The Champion is stopping at home.

Inquisitor Bob wrote:All you really did is blow your own completely legitimate argument to pieces by enforcing an Us/Them insulting rage mentality off the bat.. That's not going to win new players into the game...

I'm noticing a definite increase in a us-vs-them mentality in 40k community lately. Like their player base is under attack and they need to justify their approach to everyone who even looks like they're questioning it. It's a siege mentality where if someone approaches your gates, you shoot first and figure out if they're friendly later.

There are still pockets of laid back 40k gamers who don't take things so seriously and just want to have fun. If anyone can find those, definitely appreciate what you've got!

craddock92 wrote:Played in my first game since coming back.. Wrote up my army list using the new codex and felt pretty good..

Game was against Tau so though I had a decent chance and truth be told... I got slaughtered, it was a massacre of epic proportions. The new system hates my mechanised combat units. It just hated me getting near combat full stop. Also the Emperors champion is about as much good as a piece of bread in this new codex. He was murdered by kroot.. So much for the old CC monster he once was haha!

Welcome back to 40k. Expect more of this. And the results to vary based on your opponent's army. You may well come back from the daemon match up and wish you had your champion.

Ouch, tough game. Facing a Tau list played by someone really trying to win was tough.

Consider breaking out a LRC, fill it with fun, and Multiassaulting the Riptide and anything near. They are tough to kill, but very easy to sweep. I've lost more than I care to admit to the like of naked assault marines and other gribblies. Tau really struggle with aV14, which you can make Objective Secured. If you can box him in and get a Multiassault you'll sweep anything caught in one go. Multiassaulting anything and the Riptides gives you enough wounds to just laugh and sweep their I2.

Welcome back, and don't take your first loss too bad, anyone that has been gone for a while has some rust to dust off, especially if it's been more than one edition. Give it a couple of games and I'll bet you'll close the gap quickly.

Remember to discuss expectations with an opponent prior to the game, make sure you two are on the same page. If it's your second game, and he is doing tournament prep, it's not going to end well. Welcome back.

Got slaughtered again by daemons this time.

Looks like my old configuration definitely isn't working. Might start a new force and build it up slowly getting used to the rules as I go along. Seems like the most viable option.

Plus I really want that new librarian model.. So that's how I'm justifying it.

Just need to think of a new chapter.. Tough times


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I probably could of done with my champion ironically

I'd try other games. See if they're running any demos at your local store. You won't get the one sided curb stomping nearly so often that 40k seems to do so easily.

Tau and Daemons as your first two games back?

Bad luck, might I suggest you go and challenge an Eldar player, then at least you'll have got the worst of it out the way!

Don't get too disheartened, you've had two of the toughest games you could currently face, I play daemons, and, even though I try and play "friendly', Marines are not normally an obstacle for me. If you faced anything with "competitive" pretensions I'm not surprised you essentially got erased.

You have discovered that assault is the realm of a few specialists now, add some more Dakka to your list, rather than abandoning it completely, and you may be pleasantly surprised (when not facing one of the holy trinity of power books at least.)