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Yes, than I would ask where they got it if it was good quality.

Kangodo wrote:

So they do make money off of you!
....
The alternative would be that I get bored of the hobby and spend nothing on them.

You speak truth.

In the last month I've bought two Eldar Codex, two Tau Empire Codex, Strongholds, 7E rules, Ork Codex, Ork Data Cards, and Eldar army (all GW models), Tau Army (all GW models), Necron Army (all GW models), and a few other GW books to boot.

I understand that if we all stop buying GW they will go under, and I really don't want that, but their pricing is insane. If someone can undercut them reproducing their model in a more expensive medium by 50%, you need a whole lot of moral superiority and deep, deep, pockets to resist, at least on the big ticket items.

 Farseer Pef wrote:
The sales lost may not be 1 for 1, but you are obtaining something from another person's work while skipping out on paying them.

Yes you are. But 'I have something that I didn't pay for' is not the same as 'I would have bought this if I didn't get one cheaper from somewhere else'.

Tell me how that isn't theft.

It's not theft because the law says it isn't theft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
While I am all for recasts, the only downside to your methods is money going to the recaster doesnt support any new ideas etc.

Going by their recent performance, neither does money going to GW...

 insaniak wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
While I am all for recasts, the only downside to your methods is money going to the recaster doesnt support any new ideas etc.

Going by their recent performance, neither does money going to GW...

True, but its better than nothing new I guess.

Money going to GW is actively a bad thing at this point if you enjoy 40k. It doesn't promote good development of the setting, it promotes breaking of the setting for more short term profits. I preferred it when loyalist SMs didn't summon daemons and Eldar didn't ally with Slanneshi daemons which are both perfecly fine with the new edition.

 Yonan wrote:
Money going to GW is actively a bad thing at this point if you enjoy 40k. It doesn't promote good development of the setting, it promotes breaking of the setting for more short term profits. I preferred it when loyalist SMs didn't summon daemons and Eldar didn't ally with Slanneshi daemons which are both perfecly fine with the new edition.

I know some people cant do this. But you can simply not do these things. Its not hard.

On the flip side they didnt need to add these.

But I suspect a lot of the gamer population kinda of depend on brick and mortar stores to be able to play their games so there is the biggest and most important reason to support GW if you use them.

I'd recommend Mantic to them if they've gone to such lengths to get cheap minis.

It's best to say if you make a superior product at a good price, people will pay it. If you're being successfully undercut, you might think it's you not your customers.

Once some PC companies, like Valve and CD Projekt (GOG) started making their service the sales pitch versus the product, they started to prosper. Valve sold DRM haters the biggest slice of DRM to date and they enjoy every minute of it because the service was good for the prices offered.

 Swastakowey wrote:
But I suspect a lot of the gamer population kinda of depend on brick and mortar stores to be able to play their games so there is the biggest and most important reason to support GW if you use them.

It's not a hard dependancy to break though. Ir's very easy to find gamers in your locality thanks to the prevalance of the internet and discussion forums such as these - dakka even has a player finder to make it easier. Finding groups of players to play with casually without the involvement of stores is arguably better for a number of reasons. Cheaper for the players as they don't need to feel guilted into buying overpriced stuff from inefficient local stores, no risk of theft or damage which is common in stores, more comfortable setting with easy beer fridge access... ; ) (where I play may be obvious from what I think of playing in stores heheh). It's easy enough for clubs to rent rooms for use too if necessary, and can be quite cheap if you look around. Retains all the above advantages, but adds a small cost overhead in exchange for being able to house more players at once so is great for larger clubs.

 TheKbob wrote:
It's best to say if you make a superior product at a good price, people will pay it. If you're being successfully undercut, you might think it's you not your customers.
Once some PC companies, like Valve and CD Projekt (GOG) started making their service the sales pitch versus the product, they started to prosper. Valve sold DRM haters the biggest slice of DRM to date and they enjoy every minute of it because the service was good for the prices offered.

500 steam games and counting ; ) Used to pirate everything as a uni student. Now I pay for everything and ignore what's not worth paying for as Steam fixed all my complaints with the system by offering reasonably priced products via a convenient system that added value to the products over piracy. I empathise with those who choose to pirate though as there are a number of valid reasons to do so.

edit: Other than Mass effect 3. No way was I missing that story, despite how ridiculous the ending was. No way EA was getting any money for it though ; / We were cheated with that far more than they were.

 Yonan wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
But I suspect a lot of the gamer population kinda of depend on brick and mortar stores to be able to play their games so there is the biggest and most important reason to support GW if you use them.

It's not a hard dependancy to break though. Ir's very easy to find gamers in your locality thanks to the prevalance of the internet and discussion forums such as these - dakka even has a player finder to make it easier. Finding groups of players to play with casually without the involvement of stores is arguably better for a number of reasons. Cheaper for the players as they don't need to feel guilted into buying overpriced stuff from inefficient local stores, no risk of theft or damage which is common in stores, more comfortable setting with easy beer fridge access... ; ) (where I play may be obvious from what I think of playing in stores heheh). It's easy enough for clubs to rent rooms for use too if necessary, and can be quite cheap if you look around. Retains all the above advantages, but adds a small cost overhead in exchange for being able to house more players at once so is great for larger clubs.

 TheKbob wrote:
It's best to say if you make a superior product at a good price, people will pay it. If you're being successfully undercut, you might think it's you not your customers.
Once some PC companies, like Valve and CD Projekt (GOG) started making their service the sales pitch versus the product, they started to prosper. Valve sold DRM haters the biggest slice of DRM to date and they enjoy every minute of it because the service was good for the prices offered.

500 steam games and counting ; ) Used to pirate everything as a uni student. Now I pay for everything and ignore what's not worth paying for as Steam fixed all my complaints with the system by offering reasonably priced products via a convenient system that added value to the products over piracy. I empathise with those who choose to pirate though as there are a number of valid reasons to do so.

edit: Other than Mass effect 3. No way was I missing that story, despite how ridiculous the ending was. No way EA was getting any money for it though ; / We were cheated with that far more than they were.

Crap... I'm only at 353....

And I move too much for work to really settle someplace yet, so I very much appreciate stores. I've been selling a lot of my smaller items in their consignment cabinet. They take a straight 10% off the top and whatever funds I raise are store credit. So they net a ton of cash and I reduce the hassle of trying to trade for the new models I want. I've already netted about $600~ through doing that and expect maybe another $150 more. This doesn't include the armies I'm selling. But I'm selling off my game and still supporting the local venue. And I buy in stores when I can to make sure I can go to a place to roll dice.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
I would play him/her, but I would make snide comments about things related to copyright infringement the entire game. None targeted at my opponent mind you, I'd just cover everything from Napster to Industrial espionage.
By the end of the game, my opponent would be well aware of my feelings on the issue and probably never want to play me again. Recasting without permission is illegal in many places and unethical everywhere.

Why is it unethical? You bought the item from the person who made it. By buying an item using a stolen design do you too steal the idea? Is all thievery equally wrong?

It's unethical because it's supporting intellectual property theft. It's no different than buying a Metallica CD from someone who bought one then re-burned it en-masse.

Only difference is Metallica doesnt give thier fans the finger like GW does.
These kits are hilariously expensive, and of poor mold quality in Forgeworld's case. Recast Forgeworld is normally better than the real thing. I know.

I voted "depends" because my approval or disapproval hinges on information not mentioned in the OP, namely:

Are the recast models painted? If they are, then I don't care where my opponent got them. If they aren't painted, then I don't want the recast garbage on my gaming table.

I feel the same way about legit GW minis, too.

 insaniak wrote:

It's not theft because the law says it isn't theft.

We have this posted again and again, on the basis of one (old) decision about Elvis Presley LPs. It's not sustainable, when both US and UK authorities both define IP theft as theft, and when production or selling of counterfeits, which we're discussing here, are criminal acts in both the UK and US. Those weren't counterfeit Presley LPs, they were bootlegs of unavailable performances IIRC.

Most of the arguments here intrinsically accept that point, and argue that this is, rather, an insignificant theft, from an evil corporation. Personally, I can accept that argument, maybe even share it.

However, the relevance of that argument is doubtful, when the evil of the corporation in question merely involves charging more for our toys than we'd ideally like to pay, and when supporting counterfeiters will cut off supply of new models and harm your FLGS. Forgeworld is a niche business, however much they charge.

If there are painted models on the board that look like what they are supposed to represent and are based and sized properly, I am as close to indifferent as to the source of those models as anyone can get.

I can't even imagine asking, "Cool models dude, but are they recast?' The question just would not come up.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

It's not theft because the law says it isn't theft.

We have this posted again and again, on the basis of one (old) decision about Elvis Presley LPs. It's not sustainable, when both US and UK authorities both define IP theft as theft, and when production or selling of counterfeits, which we're discussing here, are criminal acts in both the UK and US. Those weren't counterfeit Presley LPs, they were bootlegs of unavailable performances IIRC.

Except that IP infringement can occur without the production or sale of counterfeit products, such as using Disney characters in your promotional materials without permission from the corporation. I can produce fake diamond rings out of brass and diamanté, but not violate anyone's IP.

You have two closely, perhaps intrinsically, linked crimes, but one is definitely civil, and one is not.

Besides that, the topic is about playing someone who bought them, and, while I'm not certain of the legality of that myself, nobody has put forward an argument suggesting that purchasing them is illegal in itself, so based on that assumption, this theoretical buyer of recasts in the OP has fine nothing legally wrong.

 azreal13 wrote:
Besides that, the topic is about playing someone who bought them, and, while I'm not certain of the legality of that myself, nobody has put forward an argument suggesting that purchasing them is illegal in itself, so based on that assumption, this theoretical buyer of recasts in the OP has fine nothing legally wrong.

Also; different countries, different laws.

In Norway, for instance, you are completely free to purchase pirated products, you may import them (with a maximum limit of ten per item), and you may distribute them to family and friends (which may be anyone as long as you do not receive payment for them). As for the actual re-casting, you may copy/re-cast to your heart's content, as long as you do not sell anything.

Amusingly, a recent poll showed that 92 percent of Norwegians erroneously think that it's actually illegal.

Davor wrote:
Oh my a few White Knights in here. Anyone who is claiming it is wrong to use/buy recasts (not talking about making recasts and selling them) is wrong, you telling me you NEVER EVER ONCE downloaded a GW book? Never downloaded a song or movie? A video game?

All I will say is HYPOCRIT.

As a corporate executive I could be fired for doing any of the above. I personally think it is wrong to steal. I have a few recasts but were purchased on ebay and did report the sellers once I knew what I had. (small one of figures from US or UK sellers as I know to avoid the Chinese, Russian and other sellers).

 azreal13 wrote:
[

Besides that, the topic is about playing someone who bought them, and, while I'm not certain of the legality of that myself, nobody has put forward an argument suggesting that purchasing them is illegal in itself, so based on that assumption, this theoretical buyer of recasts in the OP has fine nothing legally wrong.

Agreed, or rather, he's not necessarily done anything wrong.

As stated previously, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if an oppo fielded recasts. But there's a problem with people suggesting that supporting recasters is a moral act, and that charging too much for toys is evil.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
[

Besides that, the topic is about playing someone who bought them, and, while I'm not certain of the legality of that myself, nobody has put forward an argument suggesting that purchasing them is illegal in itself, so based on that assumption, this theoretical buyer of recasts in the OP has fine nothing legally wrong.

Agreed.

As stated previously, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if an oppo fielded recasts. But there's a problem with people suggesting that supporting recasters is a moral act, and that charging too much for toys is evil.

I agree, I have no problem with someone recasting figures for themselves and playing with them.

I think that if it was at an flgs or in my absent table or w/e it wouldn't be here or there on the matter. If it's at a gw store my answer is flatout no.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
[

Besides that, the topic is about playing someone who bought them, and, while I'm not certain of the legality of that myself, nobody has put forward an argument suggesting that purchasing them is illegal in itself, so based on that assumption, this theoretical buyer of recasts in the OP has fine nothing legally wrong.

Agreed, or rather, he's not necessarily done anything wrong.

As stated previously, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if an oppo fielded recasts. But there's a problem with people suggesting that supporting recasters is a moral act, and that charging too much for toys is evil.

I'm not sure I'd characterise it as a moral act. I have always advocated that the only way to affect change when dealing with a corporation is to withhold your cash, I normally endeavour to do so by buying third party, and I also try and positively reinforce by spending money on anything I deem of sufficient quality GW release, so they might see what they're doing right amongst the apparent falling sales.

I do see how someone could view buying recasts as a similar way of sending the same message ("punishing" GW if you want to get emotive) if they were playing in an environment where alternate models weren't easily used, or if they genuinely liked the GW model above anything else, but still felt strongly about not supporting GW with their cash (and I do also understand the attitude that they shouldn't go without because they want to continue making the point - call that entitlement if you like, but I think that gets messy depending on the buyer's particular blend of motivation in making the purchase.

Of course, there's an easy way of testing the morality of the argument, and that's to take price out of the equation. If someone is advocating purchasing recasts for reasons other than the ~50% discount, can they, in all honesty, say they would continue to do so of the recasts were only a similar price to that which is already on offer from legitimate discounters?

For me, I'm continually tempted by recasts solely because of price, because quality alternate models are seldom much cheaper than GW, and I'm on a very limited budget, and there's no arguing that some of the FW stuff is amongst the best sculpting available, even if the main studio has lost it's way somewhat in recent times.

That said, I'm also highly motivated to not reward GW money while they act in ways I disapprove of (not price, some of their industry and legal practices, the poor rules writing, but even more unforgivably the lack of engagement with the customer base and the apparent lack of desire to try and improve, and whatever your opinion of GW now, I don't think many would argue that they couldn't be better) so I couldn't honestly say that if they released a model I just had to have, that even if it meant paying the same price, I wouldn't consider buying a recast. (I very seldom buy anything direct, for the few GW products I do buy, so at least they only earn the wholesale rate, so that would likely be the way I went.)

But them again, I only ever field fully painted models, so you'd never know..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tiger g wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
[

Besides that, the topic is about playing someone who bought them, and, while I'm not certain of the legality of that myself, nobody has put forward an argument suggesting that purchasing them is illegal in itself, so based on that assumption, this theoretical buyer of recasts in the OP has fine nothing legally wrong.

Agreed.

As stated previously, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if an oppo fielded recasts. But there's a problem with people suggesting that supporting recasters is a moral act, and that charging too much for toys is evil.

I agree, I have no problem with someone recasting figures for themselves and playing with them.

It's exactly the same thing, I don't see how you can draw that arbitrary line.

It's ok if you buy one and make another 9, but if you buy 10 from someone who bought one in the first place, that's ok?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ionusx wrote:
I think that if it was at an flgs or in my absent table or w/e it wouldn't be here or there on the matter. If it's at a gw store my answer is flatout no.

Why, do GW store tables detonate if you place a counterfeit model on them?

I sold an assembled and primed Castellax Automota over eBay. I advertised it on a FB page for selling 40K and someone immediately stated that it was a recast.

I PM'd him to ask if it was indeed a recast if he had a problem with it.

He stated no that he was interested in buying it himself.

My only conclusion is that he levied the "recast" judgement in an attempt to narrow the competition he faced when bidding on it.

 azreal13 wrote:

Why, do GW store tables detonate if you place a counterfeit model on them?

Well, opinions on whether GW deserves being denied income while still using products they invested time and money in aside, it'd be -very- bad of anyone to bring thing created using stolen IP to the place of which the owner is the rightful owner of that IP.

You usually don't bring a photocopied book you obviously didn't buy to the writer's house. That's disrespectful on a very different level.

Still wondering- does anyone think that the reproducing, and/or distributing for free use of abandoned material is immoral/stealing?

 Klerych wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why, do GW store tables detonate if you place a counterfeit model on them?

Well, opinions on whether GW deserves being denied income while still using products they invested time and money in aside, it'd be -very- bad of anyone to bring thing created using stolen IP to the place of which the owner is the rightful owner of that IP.

You usually don't bring a photocopied book you obviously didn't buy to the writer's house. That's disrespectful on a very different level.

And not even slightly the same thing.

Honestly, this thread has more bad metaphors than a bad metaphor shop.

Unless you caper around the shop, thrusting your Thunderhawk into the managers face singing The Recast Song at the top of your voice, it is no different than using genuine GW minis that weren't purchased in store.

I voted depends

Because don't tell me and i don't care to know
If you do tell me then whatever cool.
But if they keep it up and gloat or whatever (especially in a LFG or GW and being a complete tool) then he'd probably not be the kinda person id want to play with anyway.

Sure, bad metaphor, whatever.

If it was my product, I'd be extra unhappy if someone was impudent enough to come over to a place I run and use something -I- paid to design and sculpt for a game I made and he plays.

.

Of course I would.

Surely the only fethers who wouldn't are the likes of Jervis Johnson, Tom Kirby, and ...er...

Whatever all the other fethers are called.

Gandalf?

 Klerych wrote:
Sure, bad metaphor, whatever.

If it was my product, I'd be extra unhappy if someone was impudent enough to come over to a place I run and use something -I- paid to design and sculpt for a game I made and he plays.

But a GW store manager cares nothing for such things.

He did not pay to design and sculpt a model, the only thing he cares about is whether he sold you the model (in which case it counts towards his performance) or didn't. Where the model actually originated from if it wasn't from him is irrelevant. Sure, there might be some awkward silences if you continually unpack new units each week and he knows you're not getting them from him, but that isn't entirely reliant on those models being recast.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why one may feel that taking recasts into a GW store might be excessively cheeky, but I do find it curious how various people posting ITT seem to have these hypothetical, arbitrary "lines in the sand" when, in the final analysis, they don't really hold up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:
Of course I would.

Surely the only fethers who wouldn't are the likes of Jervis Johnson, Tom Kirby, and ...er...

Whatever all the other fethers are called.

Gandalf?

Nah, Gandalf left in 2006 to start his own company. Coming to Kickstarter next year.

I understand Frodo and Sam are still there, but these days it's in more of a figurehead/ambassadorial role than anything hands on.