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**Hivefleet Oblivion**

Kriswall wrote:
Fact #1 - Forgeworld is a department within Games Workshop, just like the Design Studio. (Source: GW Annual Report Sales Segment Section)

Fact #2 - I have explicit permission in the BRB to use Games Workshop Publications. (Pg 119? No one seems to be contesting this.)

Fact #3 - As Forgeworld is a department within Games Workshop (just like the Design Studio, 'Forgeworld Publications' ARE Games Workshop Publications.

Therefore, I have explicit permission to use Games Workshop publications originating withing the Forgeworld design studio in much the same way I have explicit permission to use Games Workshop publications originating withing Black Library's Digital Editions design studio. These are all different design departments within what is a relatively small corporate structure.

It is important to note that Forgeworld isn't owned by Games Workshop. That implies that it is a seperate legal entity. It is not. It is the same company. Saying this is, at best, misleading and clouding the issue. It is best to think of Forgeworld as the specialty design studio down the hall from the main one... you know, those guys who still work with physical sculpts and resin casting.

It's not surprising no-one has contested the mention on page 119, as there's no mention of "Games Workshops publications" on page 119, only a mention of Lords of War and Escalation.

Perhaps you're referring to page 116, which states "the rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop publications." That's hardly a blank cheque. Fantasy codices are Games Workshop publications. So are Apocalypse books.

**nosferatu1001**

Cool, do they state they are for use in 40k games? MY publications do

The proof is given and cannot be meaningfully contested

**Sigvatr**

Klerych wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
I don't care a single bit for your entire post.

Wow, way to sound like a total douche, man.

It's nothing against you personally. It's just that I am really growing old of this discussion. Up to this very point, there has been zero rules presented by the con-FW side. Zero. Not a single sentence about FW being disallowed.

On the other hand, there is GW explicitely allowing FW to be used in regular games (parts of it).

This is RAW, we're discussing here. It's YMDC. Everything everyone says against the use of FW is entirely useless unless there are rules explicitely disallowing the use of FW in Standard 40k.

Unless you have actual rules saying so, everything you say is HYWPI and I'd appreciate you stating that in your posts.

**clively**

If we're being pedantic about RAW then:

The 40k rule book goes out of it's way to limit 40k to using "Citadel miniatures". Forge World does not produce "Citadel miniatures". They produce, (to use their words) "Forge World resin kits". The forgeworld.uk.co site is very explicit on every product about items that are "Forge World resin kits" versus parts for use with "Citadel miniatures." The Games Workshop design studio is the only entity which produces Citadel miniatures; so the discussion about whether FW is owned by GW or if FW is just another "department" of GW is moot. However, there is an exception for those items which are clearly marked "40k Approved".

That said, I would seriously reconsider where I play at if the group would allow the use of Stompas, Baneblades and the like but refuses to allow or play against forgeworld characters / "resin kits".

**Ghaz**

Sigvatr wrote:
coredump wrote:
It is simple.

It really is. Since this is YMDC, let's go back to RAW.

RAW, there is explicit permission by GW to use 40k approved units.

If you want to make a valid argument (and your personal opinion isn't...far from it), tell us the exact page / para where it is said that you may not.

Actually the only rule I've seen quoted in this entire thread is the one I posted that clearly states that both players must agree on how they are going to select their armies. So while Forge World is indeed an official publication by Games Workshop for use in Warhammer 40,000 it is only as legal as both players agree it to be for their game, and the same applies to any specific codices, supplements, dataslates and units.

**Sigvatr**

Ghaz wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
coredump wrote:
It is simple.

It really is. Since this is YMDC, let's go back to RAW.

RAW, there is explicit permission by GW to use 40k approved units.

If you want to make a valid argument (and your personal opinion isn't...far from it), tell us the exact page / para where it is said that you may not.

Actually the only rule I've seen quoted in this entire thread is the one I posted that clearly states that both players must agree on how they are going to select their armies. So while Forge World is indeed an official publication by Games Workshop for use in Warhammer 40,000 it is only as legal as both players agree it to be for their game, and the same applies to any specific codices, supplements, dataslates and units.

>> 40k approved

Agreement on selecting the armies is an empty rule because everything requires the consent of your opponent.

**BewareOfTom**

Random Dude wrote:
Here's his wulfen form.

thats actually the event only skinwolf IIRC, he's for fantasy (you know, square base

)

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/Warhammer_Monsters/SKIN-WOLVES.html

**coredump**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"such as", meaning non exhaustive.

Explicit allowance to use any gw publication, and every one of my ia books is a gw publication.

Logically incorrect.

Saying that rules can be found in various books, does not meant that *all* books are valid.

Again, why specifically mention codexes, supplements, escalation, stronghold, etc.. but never...*NEVER* mention FW??

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sigvatr wrote:

It's nothing against you personally. It's just that I am really growing old of this discussion. Up to this very point, there has been zero rules presented by the con-FW side. Zero. Not a single sentence about FW being disallowed.

No kidding. Because it is a *permissive* ruleset. A rule set that is encompassed by the 40K RULE BOOK, a rule book that is written by the 40K DESIGN TEAM.

So... can you produce a rule, by the 40K DESIGN TEAM that gives permission for non-citadel miniatures? Can you produce a rule, by the 40K DESIGN TEAM that gives permission to use FW rules and books?

Can you explain why in the *dozens* of rule books, codexes, supplements, dataslates, FAQs that the 40K design team has produced over the years, they have never *never* mentioned even a single sentence about FW being part of standard 40K??

Unless you have actual rules saying so, everything you say is HYWPI and I'd appreciate you stating that in your posts.

How I Would Play It is how it is written in the 40K rule book..... not in some book published by a different company owned by the same parent corporation.

**Sigvatr**

coredump wrote:
[...]

Have you found a page with the rule yet? Couldn't find any after skimming through your post.

**coredump**

Sigvatr wrote:
coredump wrote:
[...]

Have you found a page with the rule yet? Couldn't find any after skimming through your post.

You should try reading, your skimming skills are very very lacking. Or you can continue to just be snide and snarky and hope that substitutes for actual content.

Permissive ruleset... *you* need to find permission.... I also cant find a rule that says don't use Malifaux models.... or one that says dont use a fandex....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guys, here is the problem. Both sides are arguing RAW... but the two sides have a different opinion of what RAW entails.

Camp 1: The standard 40K rules are written by the 40K design team. Thus to discuss RAW you must look at those rules.

Camp 2: The standard 40K rules are written by any company/division owned by GW. Thus when discussing RAW you must look at any and all of those.

This is the disconnect.

**Ghaz**

Sigvatr wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
coredump wrote:
It is simple.

It really is. Since this is YMDC, let's go back to RAW.

RAW, there is explicit permission by GW to use 40k approved units.

If you want to make a valid argument (and your personal opinion isn't...far from it), tell us the exact page / para where it is said that you may not.

Actually the only rule I've seen quoted in this entire thread is the one I posted that clearly states that both players must agree on how they are going to select their armies. So while Forge World is indeed an official publication by Games Workshop for use in Warhammer 40,000 it is only as legal as both players agree it to be for their game, and the same applies to any specific codices, supplements, dataslates and units.

>> 40k approved

Agreement on selecting the armies is an empty rule because everything requires the consent of your opponent.

So you just decided that a rule printed in black and white in the rulebook is 'meaningless'? Good way to ignore a rule that invalidates your argument. It's the players (or tournament/league organizers) who decide what is legal in their games. Its right there in the rulebook.

**Sigvatr**

Ghaz wrote:

So you just decided that a rule printed in black and white in the rulebook is 'meaningless'm. Good way to ignore a rule that invalidates your argument? It's the players (or tournament/league organizers) who decide what is legal in their games. Its right there in the rulebook.

You might have misunderstood me - check back after this post.

The rule itself is not meaningless, in the contrary. My point is that having that rule in the rulebook is pointless. Everything you do requires your opponent's consent. If he does not want to play FW, there will be no game. If you don't want to play against Wave Serpents, there will be no game. It's a game. Every requires requires, in order to be played, each participant's consent.

That's why I said that it's pointless; it's the very basic principle of any game and having the rule just does not seem to be necessary to me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

coredump wrote:
[...]

I still could find any quote disallowing FW in standard 40k.

Haven't found one yet? If not, we're golden as there is no rule conflicting with GW's explicit permission to use FW (parts of it) in any game of 40k.

Phew, good thing we got that settled!

**nosferatu1001**

Core dump - the FW team are part of GW. The are not a separate company.

You are told that you can find rules in any GW publication. The IA rules are a GW publication, and they say they can be used in 40k

Until you find an actual rule, something real this time, your concession on this topic is accepted.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

Reading fail.

It most certainly does not say 'you can find rules in any GW publication." What a self-evidently nonsensical statement. So you can pick rules from Fantasy, WD, or the Investors' report and use those in a game? Really...

**nosferatu1001**

If they state they can be used in 40k, yes.

Does he investors report say that? Nope? Guess your hyperbole missed the point...

**DarknessEternal**

I'm still waiting for someone to point out where Bran becomes a Monstrous Creature. He's not in the copy of the book I own.

**Happyjew**

DarknessEternal wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to point out where Bran becomes a Monstrous Creature. He's not in the copy of the book I own.

He doesn't. It was most likely a mistake, or wishful thinking.

**jamesk1973**

My opinion is that since GW publishes "both" 40K and FW books and that the FW books specifically state that they have units that are "40K Approved".

That pretty much says the FW books are as valid as any other book published by GW.

Of course, with the "unbound" format you can bring anything.

As in all things just because you "can" bring it does not mean you "can" find an opponent.

It's pretty clear that coredump will not play you if you bring any FW units.

I likewise will not play you, if you bring a re-rollable 2++ save screamerstar.

The "source" of the units is immaterial to me.