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In the new orks codex you can take a slotless mek for each HQ choice in the detachment. Now does HQ choice refer to the filled HQ slot? Or the HQ battlefield role? I.e. can you take it with formations that have hq models? For instance, could you attach 5 meks to the council of the waaagh?

*Edited for broader discussion*

Can slotless units join formations at all?

Formations are their own Detachments, so Models within will not trigger Rules found on other Detachments.

JinxDragon wrote:
Formations are their own Detachments, so Models within will not trigger Rules found on other Detachments.

That's not the question, the slotless Mek rule is a Mek special rule, not a detachment rule

I see, so used to the whole 'formations inside a Detachment' situations that come through here often.

In this case the answer is:
Formations can only contain Units which have permission to be part of that Formation, which are listed within the Formation entry.

That isn't strictly true either, there is no rule preventing other units is there? it just doesn't explicitly permit anything not listed, which is why you can take dedicated transports.

Regardless, that isn't the point, as meks aren't new units, they are just added to units.

The question is, what is the definition of hq choice, does it have to be an hq slot, or just an hq unit

Leerjawise wrote:
Regardless, that isn't the point, as meks aren't new units, they are just added to units.

Not exactly. When you add them to the army list, they are a separate unit, because they're purchased from their own codex entry. Their rules state that they attach to units before they deploy, but until that point in the process they are their own unit.

An example of a model that is only added to units and never counts as its own unit would be the option to take a Boss Nob in a Boyz mob. It's spelled out in the upgrades section of the Boyz unit entry.

You can only purchase units that are part of a formation in a formation detatchment.

The reason you can buy trucks for your boy squads is because they are purchased via dedicated transport in the boyz unit entry.

You are never allowed to, as an example, purchase a Fast Attack slot truck in any formation that does not specifically state you can.



As such, you cannot buy mek's for formation HQ's unless noted in the formation itself.

As above.

If they're not listed as part of the Formation, then they can't be taken.

Compare to the "Ork Warband" formation that does allow a Mek to be taken.

Leerjawise,
This is a permission based system, and permission to be in the formation exists only for those Units listed on the Datasheet.

Well, if I have a weirdboy from my main "horde detachment", isnt he allowed to be allocated to a boyz mob from my "ork warband formation"? thanks to his IC status? (ok, the boyz mob with the weirdboy might loose its HoW bonus, I dont know really)

I think OP is asking if he can take a mek (from somewhere else in his army Cad/horde detachment etc) and allocate him to a formation. My answer would be, yes he can.
BUT the tricky part is no IC may join nor leave the waagh council formation, therefore that particular formation cant be joined by another IC (where ever they may come from) Now the tricky part is ofcourse the mek isnt an IC at all, he is just a character that must be allocated to an infantry or an artillery unit.
Id say yes, you can join meks the the waagh council RAW, BUT Im pretty sure thats not RAI.

BritneyFan12,
Aside from the Restriction that a Mek can only be joined to a Unit from their own Detachment....

Alright, let's break this down, I am hearing a lot of assumptions with no rules to back them up. I'll put my original question regarding "hq choice" on the back burner until we come to a consensus on adding units to formations.

First of all the Mek has this permissive rule:

Mekaniaks:

For each HQ choice in a detachment (not including other Meks) you may include a single Mek from this datasheet.
These selections do not use up Force organization slots. Before the battle, immediately after determining Warlord Traits,
any Mek that is not already part of another unit must, if possible, be assigned to any unit with the Infantry or Artillery type in their detachment;
a Mek cannot leave his unit and is treated as part of it for the entire battle for all rules purposes.

Page 121 of The Rule Book:

Army LIst Entries that Do Not Use FOC slots
...These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the slots of the appropriate battlefield role are filled, or if the Detachment had no slot for their Battlefield Role...

Eihnlazer wrote:You can only purchase units that are part of a formation in a formation detatchment.

The reason you can buy trucks for your boy squads is because they are purchased via dedicated transport in the boyz unit entry.

You are never allowed to, as an example, purchase a Fast Attack slot truck in any formation that does not specifically state you can.

As such, you cannot buy mek's for formation HQ's unless noted in the formation itself.

True, because formations do not have fast attack slots. Boys have a permissive rule allowing a Trukk to be taken as slotless. Does it matter if the permissive rule is on a unit in the formation or on a unit being added?
I have found no rule saying preventing units being added to formations, (if you have, left me know, it would make this a lot simpler) they just normally don't have a rule permitting other units.

grendel083 wrote:As above.

If they're not listed as part of the Formation, then they can't be taken.

Compare to the "Ork Warband" formation that does allow a Mek to be taken.

Again, is there any rule preventing units from being added to formations if otherwise allowed?

JinxDragon wrote:Leerjawise,
This is a permission based system, and permission to be in the formation exists only for those Units listed on the Datasheet.

Permission is given by the Meks rule isn't it?

Britneyfan12 wrote:Well, if I have a weirdboy from my main "horde detachment", isnt he allowed to be allocated to a boyz mob from my "ork warband formation"? thanks to his IC status? (ok, the boyz mob with the weirdboy might loose its HoW bonus, I dont know really)

I think OP is asking if he can take a mek (from somewhere else in his army Cad/horde detachment etc) and allocate him to a formation. My answer would be, yes he can.
BUT the tricky part is no IC may join nor leave the waagh council formation, therefore that particular formation cant be joined by another IC (where ever they may come from) Now the tricky part is ofcourse the mek isnt an IC at all, he is just a character that must be allocated to an infantry or an artillery unit.
Id say yes, you can join meks the the waagh council RAW, BUT Im pretty sure thats not RAI.

They are right, I am talking about the mini-meks, which are not independent characters.


So lets walk through the rule

Mekaniaks:

For each HQ choice This is the basis of my original question
in a detachment Formations are a type of detachment without FOC slots (not including other Meks)
you may include a single Mek from this datasheet.These selections do not use up Force organization slots. Units that don't use a slot can be added to slotless formations per the rulebook
Before the battle, immediately after determining Warlord Traits,
any Mek that is not already part of another unit must, if possible, be assigned to any unit with the Infantry or Artillery type in their detachment;
a Mek cannot leave his unit and is treated as part of it for the entire battle for all rules purposes.

So, formations do not explicitly deny units from being added, just don't give permission for other units.
Mekaniaks give permission to add Meks to detachments without using a slot. Slotless units can be added to slotless detachments.

I am not trying to powergame or anything, It honestly doesn't matter either way, I am just trying to get the ruling correct considering there are other units that would behave the same way such as Ministorum Priests, Primaris Psykers, Enginseers and Servitors

*edit* blue is a horrible color

The Formation Rules begin by stating that Formations consist of specific Units. The Formation Section then continues by informing us that some Datasheets will list all the Rules for that Formation, however a lot of the time these Datasheets will be nothing more then a List of approved Units and additional Special Rules those Units gain from being part of the Formation. They even inform us that they use this list instead of Force Organization Charts, which would make it impossible to evoke Rules found in relation to how the Force Organization Charts function as they are not being used.
Given that the Rule related to 'slot-less' Units is directly related to how they function within a Force Organization Chart, they can not be applied to Detachments which does not contain a Force Organization Chart.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Formation Rules begin by stating that Formations consist of specific Units. They continue by informing us that some Datasheets will list all the Rules for that Formation, but goes on to explain that a lot of the time it will be nothing more then a List of approved Units and additional Special Rules those Units gain from being part of the Formation. They even inform us that they use this instead of Force Organization Charts, which would make it impossible to evoke Rules found in relation to how the Force Organization Charts function.
Given that the Rule related to 'slot-less' Units is directly related to how they function within a Force Organization Chart, they can not be applied to Detachments which does not contain a Force Organization Chart.

Page 121 distinctly says you can add slotless units to Detachments without that slot. And if by specific units, they mean no additional units, then dedicated transports could not be taken. Regardless this would be a case of a specific model advanced rule modifying a basic rule. What would be the difference between adding it to a detachment with filled HQ slots and a formation? They are both expanding on the normal unit limitations of the detachment.

Laarjawise,
As the Rule about Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organization Slots are a sub-section of Force Organization Charts, which Formations do not use, it can not be evoked for permission to purchase "slot-less" Units. We know it is a Sub-Section because it constantly talks about Force Organization Charts, their Slots, and other things directly related to the Force Organization Chart Section above. It is true that it grants us permission to purchase 'slot-less' Units even if the Force Organization Chart's slots are either full or the Force Organization Chart is missing a slot that they can use, but that is far from granting us permission to use Slot-less Units whenever a Force Organization Chart is absent.

As Formation Datasheets state which Units can legally be purchased for that Formation we only have permission to purchase those Units for the Formation.

Besides:
The Mek Rule states for each HQ choice it may be taken as a slot-less Unit and, while the Unit keeps it's battlefield Role, it is not being chosen to fill a 'HQ slot....'

Also, its not just that slotless things can be taken if a permission is given to begin with.

Dedicated transports are purchased via the actual unit that is in the formation (i.e. inside the Boyz unit entry).


I dont believe that any of the units inside the formation themselves say they can pay extra points for a Mek.

You dont look at the codex as a whole when taking a formation, just the actual unit entries that are listed in the formation.

JinxDragon wrote:Laarjawise,
As the Rule about Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organization Slots are a sub-section of Force Organization Charts, which Formations do not use, it can not be evoked for permission to purchase "slot-less" Units. We know it is a Sub-Section because it constantly talks about Force Organization Charts, their Slots, and other things directly related to the Force Organization Chart Section above.

The heading is Force Organization Charts and Slots. This discuss slots, or lack thereof. Besides, just because it is in a certain section, it does not change the RAW of the paragraph

JinxDragon wrote:
It is true that it grants us permission to purchase 'slot-less' Units even if the Force Organization Chart's slots are either full or the Force Organization Chart is missing a slot that they can use, but that is far from granting us permission to use Slot-less Units whenever a Force Organization Chart is absent.

It says Detachment that doesn't have that slot, not FOC, an important difference. A formation is a detachment that lacks HQ slots.

JinxDragon wrote:
As Formation Datasheets state which Units can legally be purchased for that Formation we only have permission to purchase those Units for the Formation.

You are right, normally the formation does only give permission to take the units listed. It is the mek's rule that gives it permission.

JinxDragon wrote:
Besides:
The Mek Rule states for each HQ choice it may be taken as a slot-less Unit and, while the Unit keeps it's battlefield Role, it is not being chosen to fill a 'HQ slot....'

Laarjawise,
The Sub-section details how 'Slot-less' Units function within Force Organization Charts... and you honestly believe it is meant to be applied to things that don't use Force Organization Charts?

JinxDragon wrote:
Laarjawise,
The Sub-section details how 'Slot-less' Units function within Force Organization Charts... and you honestly believe it is meant to be applied to things that don't use Force Organization Charts?

It says how they are used in detachments, not focs. In fact it says "entries that do not use force organization slots", it never says they interact with the FOC at all, not "how they function in focs".

Even if it wasn't there, there is nothing, nothing, that says slotless units cannot be taken with units without listed focs.

The mek and AM models say they can be taken with detachments without taking a slot. Formations are a detachment, and there are no rules specific to formations stopping this.

Leerjawise wrote:
Boys have a permissive rule allowing a Trukk to be taken as slotless. Does it matter if the permissive rule is on a unit in the formation or on a unit being added?

This is pretty much the crux of it. Yes, it does matter, because the boyz are part of the formation, and thus you can purchase upgrades to them (including the trukk). The mek is not part of the formation, thus his rule never has a chance to come into play, because there's no mechanism by which you're allowed to select him as part of the formation.

@JinxDragon whoops you are ofcourse right, I missed the part about his own detachment, must have failed my initiative test against blind.

Ok, so leerjawise you are asking if, thanks to grotsnik the big mek and the 2 warbosses counts as HQ choices, you can include up to 4 meks to the unit.?

According to page 52, number 11 in armylist entries, "Dedicated transports do not use up any slots on a force organisation chart, ..."
And the Mekaniaks rule on page 56 states " these selections do not use up force organisation slots"

Therefore I think that it doesnt matter if a unit is "slotless" or not regarding formations and detachements etc. Because those waagh council nobz can already take a "slotless" battlewagon or trukk as a dedicated transport, even though they are in "things that don't use Force Organization Charts"

The only difference I see is that the nobz have the "slotless" option in their own entry, while the "slotless" meks arent a specifik option for another HQ unit. If its enough to allow/disallow them in the wwagh council I dont know honestly :/

*edit. Wait what about things like honour guard for marines etc? they are slotless and can be chosen for each HQ choice. Now I dont know any marine formations, but I could imagine that some of them would have atleast 1 HQ choice, and I have a hard time imagining that they would be allowed to expand their formations with complete honour guards squads. Maybe someone with access to those formations could divene a likely rules clarification on the ork formations.

Force Organization Slots are integral to how the Force Organization Chart functions, so how can you honestly be stating that that slots have nothing to do with the charts?!

JinxDragon wrote:
Force Organization Slots are integral to how the Force Organization Chart functions, so how can you honestly be stating that that slots have nothing to do with the charts?!

My interpretation the Mek rule says the HQ has to be taken from the Mek's detachment. Formations can only compose units that compose it's detachment.

For instance the Snikrot formation has no HQs. I cannot add mad Dok to I it's formation because it is not listed.

Just like Mad Dok, a Mek cannot be added to a formation there by it cannot use it's slotless ability unless it is in the formation already. In which case it doesn't matter due to formations not following FOC.

A formation is considered a seperate detachment. So unless the big Mek is listed in the formation, he must be taken in a seperate detachment as an HQ, unless you add another HQ.

Bludbaff wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:
Boys have a permissive rule allowing a Trukk to be taken as slotless. Does it matter if the permissive rule is on a unit in the formation or on a unit being added?

This is pretty much the crux of it. Yes, it does matter, because the boyz are part of the formation, and thus you can purchase upgrades to them (including the trukk). The mek is not part of the formation, thus his rule never has a chance to come into play, because there's no mechanism by which you're allowed to select him as part of the formation.

So you are saying that the rule that determines or changes how a unit can be added to a detachment doesn't work until after they are part of the detachment?

One, as far as I know, there isn't a rule saying a model's or unit's rules don't come into play until they become part of a detachment. Two, that would mean that mekaniaks, and other rules that allow a unit to be taken slotless would not do anything, as you would not be able to add them to any detachment unless you have a slot free, at which point the rule doesn't do anything.

JinxDragon wrote:Force Organization Slots are integral to how the Force Organization Chart functions, so how can you honestly be stating that that slots have nothing to do with the charts?!

No I am saying that units that do not use Force Organization slots do not use force organization slots. Why would it matter if there is an FOC if the unit does not use the FOC?

How then are you gaining access to this Rule as it is directly related to Force Organization Charts?
Without having access to a Force Organization Chart, a Rule telling us how slot-less units function within such Charts is irrelevant.
Also, I didn't bring it up previous but it also states that they must follow all Restrictions of the Detachment they are in and what would you call a 'Formations contain the following Units:' if not a restriction?

JinxDragon wrote:
How then are you gaining access to this Rule as it is directly related to Force Organization Charts?
Without having access to a Force Organization Chart, a Rule telling us how slot-less units function within such Charts is irrelevant.
Also, I didn't bring it up previous but it also states that they must follow all Restrictions of the Detachment they are in and what would you call a 'Formations contain the following Units:' if not a restriction?

If by directly related to FOC you mean that it doesn't use FOC slots? How does saying it does not use FOC slots imply that it needs FOC slots, especially when a rule says that it still works if there is not a slot of that type? And there is no rule in the game that says there has to be an FOC to add units. All that an FOC is is a chart that shows you the minimum and maximum number of units you can normally take of each type in an detachment. For a formation, the units normally in the detachment are preset to specific units instead of choosing yourself.

If you want to get really technical, the rule regarding restrictions says slotless units must still adhere to restrictions detailed on the detachment data sheet. It doesn't say anything about rules in the book.

But regardless, if the unit composition is a restriction, it just says you must have those units in the formation, it doesn't say anything about no additional units.

At this point you have been provided with no less then three reasons why it wouldn't work but if you want to continue to believe that you can do this, there is nothing people will be able to state that will convince you otherwise. I will be polite by simply stating that I hope you have good luck in your future games, and that you won't be too offended by the players whom have less tact if they shoot this idea down at the table top. I fear you will regularly encounter that, because the Rules are fairly clear that Formations exist of only the approved Army List Entries for that Formation.

For review, those three reasons where:
- The Rule relating to Slot-less Units are found in a sub-section of Force Organization Charts, so in order to access this Rule one first needs to have a Force Organization Chart for it to apply to
- Even if it could be evoked, the Rule itself states that you have to abide by any Restrictions on the Detachment and it would be a difficult to argue that a list of which Army Entries are legal choices is anything other then a Restriction
- Formations do not meet the criteria needed to trigger the Rules granting Slot-less Units, though I could be over-looking a possible exception and do not count Dedicated Transports in this statement, because said triggers are based on Force Organization Charts which Formations do not use

JinxDragon wrote:
At this point you have been provided with no less then three reasons why it wouldn't work but if you want to continue to believe that you can do this, there is nothing people will be able to state that will convince you otherwise. I will be polite by simply stating that I hope you have good luck in your future games, and that you won't be too offended by the players whom have less tact if they shoot this idea down at the table top. I fear you will regularly encounter that, because the Rules are fairly clear that Formations exist of only the approved Army List Entries for that Formation.

I think you are right, I don't think we are going to come to a consensus either, I have explained why each of your reasons does not prevent this. I honestly just came here for a quick RAW answer, this will likely not come up in my games, but will become more and more prevalent as the trend seems to be to add more and more units that do not use force organization slots.

JinxDragon wrote:

For review, those three reasons where:
- The Rule relating to Slot-less Units are found in a sub-section of Force Organization Charts, so in order to access this Rule one first needs to have a Force Organization Chart for it to apply to

It is in a subsection of FOC's and Slots because it is a common exception to the rule, where else would they list it? They don't use an FOC slot, they don't use the FOC chart. At best it would be implied, not RAW.
With the rule that says the detachment does not need to have that slot to take a slotless unit, I believe it implies the opposite. Are there any FOC charts in any detachment that lack a slot that a slotless unit would correspond to?

JinxDragon wrote:

- Even if it could be evoked, the Rule itself states that you have to abide by any Restrictions on the Detachment and it would be a difficult to argue that a list of which Army Entries are legal choices is anything other then a Restriction

The formation rules say those units have to be in the formation, as long as they are, the restriction is met. Requiring a set of units is not the same as denying all others.

JinxDragon wrote:

- Formations do not meet the criteria needed to trigger the Rules granting Slot-less Units, though I could be over-looking a possible exception and do not count Dedicated Transports in this statement, because said triggers are based on Force Organization Charts which Formations do not use

You can not detach the allowance or denial of Dedicated Transports from the allowance or denial of other slotless units, as they use the same wording.


This all comes down to a disagreement of whether a unit that does not use an FOC slot requires an FOC chart in a detachment to be taken in that detachment.
You say the rules imply they do.
I believe the opposite. There are no explicit rules saying that there is such a requirement. RAW, I can not see any reason it doesn't work.

But there is no reason to labor that point anymore, we are not going to agree in this instance. And we can respectfully move forward while acknowledging that disagreement.

Find permission to include other units within that formation.

You can only do what is allowed. Page and para alolowing you to add units to a formation that are not explicitly listerd as being required.

Your argument is currently "it doesnt say I cant"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find permission to include other units within that formation.

You can only do what is allowed. Page and para alolowing you to add units to a formation that are not explicitly listerd as being required.

Your argument is currently "it doesnt say I cant"

The permission is given by the models themselves, for instance, ministorum priests: "each AM detachment may include 0-3 ministorum priests. "