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 d-usa wrote:

Makes you end up wondering it 5 big successful gangs are better than 10 smaller gangs.

Well, we know Chicago "worked" best in the 20s and 30s with only 2 big successful gangs... we should go that route

This is an interesting story, specifically this "There's a greater sanction for the gang members to lose that firearm from their gang than there is to go to jail,"
http://abcnews.go.com/US/chicagos-holiday-toll-82-shootings-14-deaths/story?id=24452637

Wow bit of spew about my home here and there.

A few things based on questions and comments in this topic:

Gun Laws:
They are enforced here. Lots are confiscated, and lots of folks go away for a long time, but enforcing local gun laws doesn't really stop the flow of guns, especially from places with more lax statutes. Likewise, locking folks up doesn't stop crime if prisons don't teach any usable skills and if folks leaving prison don't have enough viable paths for returning to society.

Legal Gun Ownership.
Some folks point to the low rates (until recently it was extremely restrictive) having a causal relationship to high crime, but that's a pretty difficult case to make. I'm generally in favor of more citizen gun ownership but also of reasonable gun control laws (universal background checks, limits on number and types of firearms, funding for ATF to collate and make available their gun crime information/stats).

Why so violent?
Oh man where to start. My experience has been that folks on the outside tend to point to one or two thigns that reflects their particular slant (Left, Right, LIberal, Conservative, Progressive, Libertarian, etc.) to explain the violence of the inner city. The truth is that they are almost all partially correct but none of them tells the whole story. Destruction of the family, cycles of poverty, a legal system that is slanted against the poor and people of color, lack of jobs, disinvestment, neglect by city government, poor quality schools, it's all part of the picture.

So, why live here?
Chicago is a beautiful city with amazing cultural, culinary and architectural resources. I love it here, and I live smack in the middle of one of the communities with the highest rates of incarceration and gun violence. Not to say that innocents don't get caught up in the crossfire, but most folks in the city just live out their lives. Despite what pop culture and the media portray, we don't live every second of our lives in fear. We are aware, we take precautions, but mostly we just live. I grew up in the affluent suburbs and had family in the country so I know thed differences. I have the means to go elsewhere, yet this is where I've chosen to live and raise my children.

Living "intentionally" in the hood, is not for everyone, but there's lots of other reasons that I love it here. I love the incredible array of cultures that Chicago holds, I love the many opportunities it has for experiencing the arts, music, the museums, etc. I like neighborhoods where people actually know their neighbors, I like no longer living in a place where a black or brown face is an anomaly. I LOVE the food. There aren't many places where I can sample Korean, Vietnamese, Persian, Pakistani, Ethiopian, Indian etc, etc all within a few miles of each other. I like the accessibility of public transport, shopping, parks, etc. These aren't all exclusive to Chicago, but you won't find the same combination anywhere else.

 Ouze wrote:

 kronk wrote:
But Chicago does have:

That looks like a nice casserole.

I prefer pizza, myself.

Better... but, I'm a fan of "St. Louis' style" thin crust pizza:


It's secret is provel cheese:

I'm on a low carb diet ahead of our vacation. You have no idea just know much I want pizza now

Spurge

Catered meetings yesterday so my diet was screwed then in a big way but I still dropped weight. The food was good, but it wasn't pizza

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Then perhaps we should focus our efforts on combating violence driven by drugs and gangs

Absolutely, though I think you'll agree that our inability to curb drug use and drug violence hasn't been through a lack of effort and resources, but more the complexity of the issue. We can't just decide to tackle that and expect any results better than what we've already achieved.

And of course, there's also the point that you can do more than one thing at any given time. You can tackle drugs while also addressing other issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ironicsilence wrote:
thats actually part of what has gotten Chicago in our current pickle. One of the big things former mayor Daily did was crack down hard on the gangs, he took the cut off the snakes head approach and was actually really successful in locking up a lot of gang leaders, but just assumed that with the leaders taken out the gangs would fall apart...which is the opposite of what happened, you basically got a bunch of low level dumb thugs climbing up the ranks and taking leadership positions and a dumb gun carrying thug isnt very good at running a gang

Yeah, it seems that the 'cut off the head' strategy just causes instability in the system, which leads to more violence as other hoodlums look to press their claim for the now vacant top dog position.

And if you just aim for cleaning up the streets you end up with a churn of low level hoodlums serving short 'intent to sell' sentences, getting out and getting caught, over and over again. The stress on the system means that approach never lasts for long either.

Probably the only methods that can actually work are to stop supply and to stop demand - stop the drugs getting made and brought in to the country, and stop people wanting them. I don't think anyone's figured out how to make either of those things happen, though.

There's always

Penal battalion. Have to much free time on their hand in prison. Make them work. Clear mine fields, land reclaimation in Australia, ballistic test results, port a potty cleaning, and etc etc

The stuffed pizzas from Giordano's are worth taking a bullet for, that's why people stay in this hell hole known as Illinois.

Now if we could only teach the gangbangers to shoot better we could easily triple our current homicide rate and put it our title well out of reach of other cities, despite our masses of untrained shooters who can't hit anything we're able keep our murder rate high through an award winning team spirit.



A major part of the problem is that they've torn down all the projects and relocated the residents to other areas, the idea was that they'd break up the gangs, however it's simply caused a new batch of issues where the gangs didn't disperse as hoped but have spread out into a wider area and are coming into contact with new gangs and contesting more territory. When the projects were up you didn't want to be anywhere near them and if you kept clear by several blocks you weren't as likely to run into gang members, now they are dispersed not only through the south side, but they've also expanded significantly to the west due to the relocation effort and it's caused gang violence to start popping up in new neighborhoods that were much less impact by violence in previous decades.

Sort of like a hive of angry bees, it used to be very visible and largely avoidable, but the city came and smashed it apart so the bees have now split into lots of smaller colonies but there's just as many or more members are around now and they have to carve out new territory and defend it more aggressively then before. The projects were like fortresses and the gangs that controlled them had them on lock down, there were very few ways for other gangs much less the police to gain access, so they could defend their turf without as much bloodshed as there is when defending open streets.

Another issue the city is finding is that when the crime was largely centralized it could concentrate much of it's efforts into a handful of districts and see far more effective results for the man hours and budget, now with it spreading out into multiple neighborhoods it means more districts are being over taxed on resources and it's much harder to address then when it was more centralized. The numbers may be down a bit from pervious years but as the next generation of gang members comes of age we're going to have a much bigger problem, with a wider area and population base they are in contact with, in time it will cause the gangs to further increase in size and have more run ins with previously quieter areas.

As it's probably the most important thing being discussed here, I'm a fan of thin crust over deep-pan myself.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
As it's probably the most important thing being discussed here, I'm a fan of thin crust over deep-pan myself.

Heresy. The Inquisition will hear of this sir!

New York Pizza is the best.

I declare Exterminatus upon Chicago and their Daemonic Deep Dishes!

On the pizza front, all your thin crusts are simply dwarfed by the Chicago stuffed. We'd drop one of our deep dishes on top of the thin crust and people wouldn't even notice as it'd simple ooze all around it until it'd be bonded with it, if anyone did notice they'd be like "man that was awesome but the bottom layer sucked'.


I do find a good thin crust from a fire baked oven incredibly good, had some in NY and also St Loius which are very close runners up IMO. Had a fire baked pizza at Rock Bottom down in Indy while at Gen Con that was incredibly good. There's a Rock Bottom here in IL but it's not even close, oddly I found the same with the Weber Grill. Amazing down in Indy but in IL it was pretty tame.

You all are a freaking trip. I hate store, chain, and/or restaurant pizza. I got so burned out eating Domino's, Papa John, DiGiornio, Red Baron, Pizza Hut, Tombstone pizza's when I was on flight status. I do love home made pizza I make

 paulson games wrote:
On the pizza front, all your thin crusts are simply dwarfed by the Chicago stuffed. We'd drop one of our deep dishes on top of the thin crust and people wouldn't even notice as it'd simple ooze all around it until it'd be bonded with it, if anyone did notice they'd be like "man that was awesome but the bottom layer sucked'.


I do find a good thin crust from a fire baked oven incredibly good, had some in NY and also St Loius which are very close runners up IMO. Had a fire baked pizza at Rock Bottom down in Indy while at Gen Con that was incredibly good. There's a Rock Bottom here in IL but it's not even close, oddly I found the same with the Weber Grill. Amazing down in Indy but in IL it was pretty tame.

I don't think Chicago style pizza is really pizza, more incredibly awesome American style Lasanga constrained by pie dough. It really fits for the home of Capone - food to excess!

My boy is temporarily working for a pizza chain during the summer. One advantage is he can make his own pizza and bring it home. Its absolutely packed with toppings. Me likey.

sebster wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
thats actually part of what has gotten Chicago in our current pickle. One of the big things former mayor Daily did was crack down hard on the gangs, he took the cut off the snakes head approach and was actually really successful in locking up a lot of gang leaders, but just assumed that with the leaders taken out the gangs would fall apart...which is the opposite of what happened, you basically got a bunch of low level dumb thugs climbing up the ranks and taking leadership positions and a dumb gun carrying thug isnt very good at running a gang

Yeah, it seems that the 'cut off the head' strategy just causes instability in the system, which leads to more violence as other hoodlums look to press their claim for the now vacant top dog position.

You guys are missing one very important point. Chicago overall crime and murder rate is actually down compared to the heydays of the big gangs (the 90's saw our highest murder rates). This year has seen a spike compared to recent years, but the overall trend is actually toward less crime. Anyone looking for the good-old-days of the big gangs should take a look at the actual stats. There were lower murder rates in the 60's (Chicago had a much bigger population then), but there was also more murder. Here's a graph of murder rates.



Murder rates since the graph above have seesawed between 15 and 18 per 100,000.

Not to say it's all roses and sweet-treats, but it really needs to be taken in context. Check out this chart in the link below and you'll see that we're on a downward trajectory; for nearly all crime.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Chicago-Illinois.html

paulson games wrote:On the pizza front, all your thin crusts are simply dwarfed by the Chicago stuffed. We'd drop one of our deep dishes on top of the thin crust and people wouldn't even notice as it'd simple ooze all around it until it'd be bonded with it, if anyone did notice they'd be like "man that was awesome but the bottom layer sucked'.

Agreed. Lou Malnati's is a Pizza in my book. From time to time I do enjoy those thin sauce-and-toppings-on-a-tostada that folks out east call "NY style" pizza, but when I want a real pizza pie, I'll take a Lou's Deep Dish Buttercrust. Keep your big apple, I want my big Pizza.

There is no true pizza beyond the mighty Canadian pizza... Pepperoni, sausage, bacon, back bacon and mushroom. Occasionally with a maple glaze to make it an all in one 'dinner+dessert' masterpiece!

I stand by my pizza selection. This Crust is OK, but pales in comparison to a Deep Dish from a good restaurant.

But surely we can all agree that it snows too much up here.

 kronk wrote:
I stand by my pizza selection. This Crust is OK, but pales in comparison to a Deep Dish from a good restaurant.

But surely we can all agree that it snows too much up here.

NEVER! #Wearewinter

Having sampled pizzas nationally in my travels, I have to say, the best I ever had was as a lad in New Hampshire.

It was soft and doughy, not too thick, with a sweet sauce that was perfectly tangy. It was like pizza on fried dough

 MWHistorian wrote:
Good thing they have the strictest gun control there or those murders ....oh....wait. That's right. Gun control doesn't work.

Seems to work here in the kangaroo eating southlands, we had 188 gun-related deaths total in 2011. Striking that one city can pull almost ten percent of that count in a single day.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Good thing they have the strictest gun control there or those murders ....oh....wait. That's right. Gun control doesn't work.

Seems to work here in the kangaroo eating southlands, we had 188 gun-related deaths total in 2011. Striking that one city can pull almost ten percent of that count in a single day.

See, you Aussies may have all but banned guns, but we've already banned Drop Bears, so it'd look completely different if we were comparing the stats for Death by Drop Bear

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Good thing they have the strictest gun control there or those murders ....oh....wait. That's right. Gun control doesn't work.

Seems to work here in the kangaroo eating southlands, we had 188 gun-related deaths total in 2011. Striking that one city can pull almost ten percent of that count in a single day.

See, you Aussies may have all but banned guns, but we've already banned Drop Bears, so it'd look completely different if we were comparing the stats for Death by Drop Bear

I have a drop bear as a pet. He sits in my front yards eucalyptus tree and drops down and murders unsuspecting door to door salesmen/fanatics.

Im personally glad this thread turned into a pizza debate as the gun control debates on this forum are getting stale

 ironicsilence wrote:
Im personally glad this thread turned into a pizza debate as the gun control debates on this forum are getting stale

Probably yet another case of Chicago "Losing it"


"when they lost the Great Pizza War, they turned to the only thing they had left.... gun violence.... This fall, at a theater near you, The Last Great Pizza Chef..... In 3-D"

 ironicsilence wrote:
Im personally glad this thread turned into a pizza debate as the gun control debates on this forum are getting stale

People are getting pretty crusty about the gun thing...

New pizza. Chicago Losing It

 Frazzled wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Its the pizza.

Should not have used a Chicago base advertising agency for Tombstone Pizza there

Godfather's Pizza was Da Bomb!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait wait wait...

Are you saying I can't have a thermonuclear device?
(relocks the closet marked "open in case of Zombies or Medicine Quinn Medicine Woman remake")

So....you mean I can't own a tactical thermonuclear device in Texas?.... and I thought you where cool in Texas. Scratch Texas off the list...