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Hi guys,

New infinity player (got bummed out by 40K lately), just started out making some trial runs with a friend of mine, we had this question regarding Line of Sight (Couldn't find another post on it):

If player A's models are next to eachother, facing the same way, and player B has his active turn is he:
1: Able to move his miniature in such a way around a corner so that his model can barely see one of the two models of player A(And thus only face a single ARO)
2: If this is possible, is he allowed to keep nudging it in such a way that the second model doesn't have LoS, before ending his move short skill, or is this premeasuring?



Also, in extension of this question, does the rule "If A can see B, then B can see A" also apply to a reactive turn? so when player A is in his reactive turn and he can ARO player B(regardless of whether he actually targets him or w/e) can player B take action against that model?

Edit: in order to not confuse other newbies looking in here, I've removed this post!

@ dakkamite you were playing it right the first time! Reciprocal lof still applies in the active turn so example 1 in the OP should be doable. As for the second question in the OP it depends how you treat declaring movement. You can either let people declare they are moving to the corner of the building to get lof to the first guy but not the second (assuming they have enough movement to do that) or else make people declare their movement (i'm moving my guy to the corner here) and then check lof for AROs after. Either of those should avoid anyone shuffling models around after they move.

You always reciprocate LoF no matter if you're active or reactive. If your active model edges out a head sized portion of itself and it can be seen from the center of an enemy model's base then your active model can draw LoF.

Yes you can slowly edge out of a corner to FtF models one by one depending on the angles. It's a super common tactic.

 4rgfvsw6p wrote:
You always reciprocate LoF no matter if you're active or reactive. If your active model edges out a head sized portion of itself and it can be seen from the center of an enemy model's base then your active model can draw LoF. .

See and a question about this came up in a game recently. The situation was this, my celestial guard w/ spitfire had clear LoF on a Neoterran Bolt's legs but the bolt couldn't even see because a walkway was blocking his view of the CG who was also in cover behind a balcony. Is the LoF still reciprocated for the bolts ARO? We were unsure even after spending half an hour rule-checking so we just went with the real world answer of can't shoot what you can't see.

Here is a rough sketch of the situation. the distance was 28 inches but the CG could clearly see everything below the Bolt's belt but the Bolt just had a facefull of walkway.

LoF is reciprocal in that case. Models aren't a "static" pose, but implied to be in motion (and crouched models are "standing" unless noted as "prone" ).

So if the CG can shoot the bolt, then the bolt has reciprocal LoF to the CG and the resulting roll would be a f2f one - with the cg gaining the benefits of cover (and the bolt NOT getting any cover).

Yeah, it's kind of an unequivocal point. The rulebook flat out states that line of sight is reciprocal. if you can draw line of sight to an enemy, they can draw line of sight to you. Page 6, paragraph 2 under Line of Fire (LoF).

In Infinity, Line of Fire is reciprocal, applying the rule "if I can see you, you can see me". If a figure can draw LoF to its target, then the target can draw LoF to the figure as well (as long as it is inside its field of vision).

As chromedog says, the example above would just assume that the model on ground level is crouching in order to be able to fire up at the attacker. The only time this doesn't apply is if you are out of their 180 degree field of vision.

Yeah, actually turns out this is the case.

Yuck.

so we just went with the real world answer of can't shoot what you can't see.

This isn't 40k, theres no need to measure LoF from the eyes or whatever.

 -Loki- wrote:
Yeah, it's kind of an unequivocal point. The rulebook flat out states that line of sight is reciprocal. if you can draw line of sight to an enemy, they can draw line of sight to you. Page 6, paragraph 2 under Line of Fire (LoF).

In Infinity, Line of Fire is reciprocal, applying the rule "if I can see you, you can see me". If a figure can draw LoF to its target, then the target can draw LoF to the figure as well (as long as it is inside its field of vision).

As chromedog says, the example above would just assume that the model on ground level is crouching in order to be able to fire up at the attacker. The only time this doesn't apply is if you are out of their 180 degree field of vision.

Does it work the other way around, so to speak? Which is to say that if the target can draw LoF to me, I can draw LoF to the target and thus shoot it even though a line from the centre of my base is blocked?

Yes. Its confusing, but the whole point of the thread is that this is in fact the case.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Yes. Its confusing, but the whole point of the thread is that this is in fact the case.

I'm not sure I was entirely clear. That my target can see me if I can see him is clear.

What I mean is that I want to shoot a guy in the active turn. However, I can't see him tracing LoF from the centre of the base as usual. But he can see a head sized portion of my arm. Can I still shoot at him (and perhaps have him shoot back)?

All the rules are written as "If you can see your target, your target can see you." I'm just wondering if the opposite, "If your (prospective) target can see you, you can see your target", is also true.

Chrysis wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Yes. Its confusing, but the whole point of the thread is that this is in fact the case.

I'm not sure I was entirely clear. That my target can see me if I can see him is clear.

What I mean is that I want to shoot a guy in the active turn. However, I can't see him tracing LoF from the centre of the base as usual. But he can see a head sized portion of my arm. Can I still shoot at him (and perhaps have him shoot back)?

All the rules are written as "If you can see your target, your target can see you." I'm just wondering if the opposite, "If your (prospective) target can see you, you can see your target", is also true.

Yes. The only time it doesn't work is, as the rule says, if they are not in your 180 field of view.

As the active player, if you can draw line of sight to a model to make an attack, they automatically have reciprocal line of sight back to you. If you, as the reactive player, draw line of sight to an active model in ARO, they automatically have reciprocal line of sight back to you.

What matters here is your opponent is drawing line of sight to you in ARO. So you have reciprocal line of sight back at them as the active player.

I like it because it raises the question - do you really want to argue for 15 minutes that you have line of sight? Coupled with the ARO mechanic it means I get to shoot right back.

Chrysis wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Yes. Its confusing, but the whole point of the thread is that this is in fact the case.

I'm not sure I was entirely clear. That my target can see me if I can see him is clear.

What I mean is that I want to shoot a guy in the active turn. However, I can't see him tracing LoF from the centre of the base as usual. But he can see a head sized portion of my arm. Can I still shoot at him (and perhaps have him shoot back)?

All the rules are written as "If you can see your target, your target can see you." I'm just wondering if the opposite, "If your (prospective) target can see you, you can see your target", is also true.

You were perfectly clear, hence why I told you that this is the case!

If they can see head-sized-portion of your dude, then they get LoF. If they get LoF, you magically acquire LoF yourself, even on your turn.

Not how I would like it to work, but apparantly its word of god from a member of the rules design team.

It's one of those 'this games dynamic, yo' rules. Like, those crouching models that aren't crouching and are actually full height that will have a 'silhouette' in N3. Basically, the models represent people that are constantly moving and trying to get a bead on each other.

If someone can see you through a gap in the terrain, it's only logical to assume that that person should be able to crouch, twist or otherwise move to get the same angle back at you.